Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[fos]

Quite the lively discussion! Kudos all around!

GR-- great accents and highlights.
Stoezel-- I dig the comment about tire size.
Et all--

It seems like there are many layers to the problem. Just not, I'm not going to solve them, just try to point them out.

Hoosier and many folks may want a quick answer, and maybe that's OK. It won't solve the rain tires however.

What are FVs around the world doing? What are the FVs in UK/Ireland/GER/Brazil/AUS running?
Granted, they are our FSTs, etc... but we should be looking at it. I think that is where the rim size comes into the discussion. Can we get the appropriate adapters to stay 5 lug drum for US FV/ CAN 1200?

Can we say that US FST can migrate to worldwide FV(1600)?

Can we (worldwide) collude on tires?

These forums where we beat on each other is exactly how we can make this all happen. There just needs to be a lot more beatings.

Fos

This is the most posts in the sortest time... I bet we have an Apexspeed record brewing here...

[nbrigido]

And why not..... You are asking us to value the opinion of a competitor that we have never heard of.... a series that we not familiar with... and in cars that we do not know anything about relative to level of preparation.

Brian

Who is we? Is there someone behind the scenes that needs to come forward? are you speaking on behalf of a group that we do not know about? We means nothing if none can relate to them?

Actually Brain, you are asking us to value your opinion (as the Majority) but you have not proven a viable option to address anyone's concerns.

You are not answer direct questions, and everything is getting away from the tires and going to the drivers, the cars, the series, the $$$ which is wrong.

If you want to have a debate on tires then lets stick to tires.

You are knocking a packaging which less that a week ago you thought was the best thing going and a no brainer. with data, and evidence to back them.

You have proposed a tire, that is not created, tested, priced...that supposedly can do a alot of things that drivers want. No scientific evidence to prove they will work, because they do not exist as of now.

at the same time none of the radial supported have asked for the radial to be THE spec tire, but rather A spec tire.

[nbrigido]

Quite the lively discussion! Kudos all around!

GR-- great accents and highlights.
Stoezel-- I dig the comment about tire size.
Et all--

It seems like there are many layers to the problem. Just not, I'm not going to solve them, just try to point them out.

Hoosier and many folks may want a quick answer, and maybe that's OK. It won't solve the rain tires however.

What are FVs around the world doing? What are the FVs in UK/Ireland/GER/Brazil/AUS running?
Granted, they are our FSTs, etc... but we should be looking at it. I think that is where the rim size comes into the discussion. Can we get the appropriate adapters to stay 5 lug drum for US FV/ CAN 1200?

Can we say that US FST can migrate to worldwide FV(1600)?

Can we (worldwide) collude on tires?

These forums where we beat on each other is exactly how we can make this all happen. There just needs to be a lot more beatings.

Fos

This is the most posts in the sortest time... I bet we have an Apexspeed record brewing here...

From what I understand we don't need to look at rain tires, it never rains where the majority is.

[nbrigido]

I have no idea who you are as a competitor and neither do most of my FV contacts. I have a very narrow focus on FV... again as do most my FV contacts.

Mike knowing you does not help me or my contacts.

So you your opinion is meaningless. Absolutely nothing personal....

Brian

We have gone from the Majority to a narrow focus.

[nbrigido]

You are the trying to promoted the Falken package. A absolutely viable package form your's and your series participant's perspective. But why should I or any other FV competitor have any faith in your opinion on this subject. You have a Regional series that no one has ever heard of with participants that no one is familiar with. I have been in FV for almost three decades and I have no idea who you are on any of the other pro-Falken posters on this forum. Now this has everything to do with the Regional nature of you and your series. This is not a put down... just mine and many others perceptions of the issue.

Once the discussion leaves the NE you and your group's opinion holds no water. This is a lack of credibility that must be over come before the Falken package can be sold.

Brian

Brain, I would personally like your opinion on a 2 tire spec covering Slick and Radial? has been posted and a new thread has been started?

Lets stick to tires and facts,

[Steve Bamford]

I have no idea who you are as a competitor and neither do most of my FV contacts. I have a very narrow focus on FV... again as do most my FV contacts.

Mike knowing you does not help me or my contacts.

So you your opinion is meaningless. Absolutely nothing personal....

Brian

Ha ha ha, really once again!

Your info on the Canadian Series you were spouting that you received from "one of your contacts" knows me extremely well. So to say it does not help you or your "contacts" is another lie. To be fair, you did say "most of your contacts" and not all so I guess the word of your Canadian contact doesn't count and you will remove your remarks about the Canadian Series you posted????

Nothing personal from my end either. I have posted only facts and argued only lies or misleading information that you have brought up with more facts that you seem to not want to answer. I am sure even your trusted "contacts" can clearly see this.

It continues to be enjoyable have this discussion with yourself. If you could provide some substance to your arguement it may actually lead to some interesting discussion. So far you have just proven to have an opinion that is of little value.

Agreed, nothing personal from my side either.

Again, I am not pushing for a set tire, just correcting wrong information Brian is posting.

[problemchild]

And why not..... You are asking us to value the opinion of a competitor that we have never heard of.... a series that we not familiar with... and in cars that we do not know anything about relative to level of preparation.

Brian

Many people are unaware of your credentials and keep asking about them. You never respond.

Do you have any contacts that would admit publicly they were associated with you?

[problemchild]

You are the trying to promoted the Falken package. A absolutely viable package form your's and your series participant's perspective. But why should I or any other FV competitor have any faith in your opinion on this subject. You have a Regional series that no one has ever heard of with participants that no one is familiar with. I have been in FV for almost three decades and I have no idea who you are on any of the other pro-Falken posters on this forum. Now this has everything to do with the Regional nature of you and your series. This is not a put down... just mine and many others perceptions of the issue.

Once the discussion leaves the NE you and your group's opinion holds no water. This is a lack of credibility that must be over come before the Falken package can be sold.

Brian

You bought in on July 29th. Said it was a no-brainer. Why was the credibilty a non-issue then?

[nbrigido]

In the best interest of FV / F1200 series and drivers, that would like to run a cost effect solution. I feel this is the best option to appease all parties and address the situation quickly.

[Daryl DeArman]

And why not..... You are asking us to value the opinion of a competitor that we have never heard of.... a series that we not familiar with... and in cars that we do not know anything about relative to level of preparation.

Pompous much?

I don't assign a value to folks' opinion based on their popularity. There are other criteria that hold much more weight.

[Steve Bamford]

You bought in on July 29th. Said it was a no-brainer. Why was the credibilty a non-issue then?

He realized this may lead to a change in the rules for manifolds as well as the Challenge Cup gains popularity. What better way to squash it then get a different spec tire then what they run. Wouldn't want to admit they might be on to something.

I think that is obvious to all including Brian's "contacts".

[gbmetcalf]

What challenge or Canadian races are left this year?

Mike if you want to join the group at NJ to see what everyone is discussing , I'll send my wheels and tires down with Ray for you to try. They are a used set I got from Greg. I can't use them this year so willing to loan them out.

Be glad to help anyone to that wants to try them out.

***Following the example Steve Davis and Dave Satterley set. I needed tires for the summit Majors and they provided me with some. FV drivers are the best!!!!


G.

[Matt King]

I think Brian's "contacts" are the voices in his head.

[maloneyjack]

But why should I or any other FV competitor have any faith in your opinion on this subject. Brian

When was the last race you actually entered and competed in?

[nbrigido]

You are the trying to promoted the Falken package. A absolutely viable package form your's and your series participant's perspective. But why should I or any other FV competitor have any faith in your opinion on this subject. You have a Regional series that no one has ever heard of with participants that no one is familiar with. I have been in FV for almost three decades and I have no idea who you are on any of the other pro-Falken posters on this forum. Now this has everything to do with the Regional nature of you and your series. This is not a put down... just mine and many others perceptions of the issue.

Once the discussion leaves the NE you and your group's opinion holds no water. This is a lack of credibility that must be over come before the Falken package can be sold.

Brian

I had to do this, but there must have been credibility for you to write the post below on July 29th, word for word..... The package sold you... When you wrote this YOU were one of those Pro-Falken Posters. So when it comes to credibility...

Still like to know these many others?

B McCarthy thinks that there is an opening for a spec FV tire after the the possible success of the spec FF tire. With that in mind I reviewed that Falken tire option. Aside from the choice of wheels, which relates to the 14 vs 15" wheel size discussion, this is a no-brainer.

Say the Falkens are race competitive for 4 races (claimed to to be good for 3 seasons), the Hoosier are possibly race competitive for 2 races.

BALLPARK: Falkens $100 & Hoosier $200... shipped and mounted. Now using the Falkens, you must purchase a $80-90 wheel. So the first purchase of Falken tires is equal to the cost of a set of Hoosiers. The cost benefit after the initial purchase of the Falken package is just overwhelming in favor of the Falken combination.

What am I missing?
Give me a list of contacts and I should have no problem selling the Falken package.

Brian

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Mike if you want to join the group at NJ to see what everyone is discussing , I'll send my wheels and tires down with Ray for you to try. They are a used set I got from Greg. I can't use them this year so willing to loan them out.

Be glad to help anyone to that wants to try them out.


G.

I would seriously consider it, but i just looked and it's the last weekend in august. I can't make that. I am open to trying an event in 2016.

[gbmetcalf]

i would seriously consider it, but i just looked and it's the last weekend in august. I can't make that. I am open to trying an event in 2016.

deal

[Johan W]

But do you have very good cars? Just as a rough yard stick... how many Vortechs are running with you?

It would be a BIG in feather your cap to get Rick or Roger to race with you. They are in your area... I shouldn't be very hard to secure their support. there is plenty of time. Keep us posted.

Brian

What would you say if one or both of the Scheckters, Toby and Thomas join us in the Challenge Cup Series for an "elitish" showing. Both raced Vees on Radials in SA. One may join us at NJ if we can get the logistics in order. Would be nice to have SA, Canada and the US chasing the trophies.

Brian you're not in touch with reality here. As a national coach and I just had a Judoka won a silver medal at the PanAm games...one thing to think of. Coach the base, keep the healthy masses happy and champions will come. What I try to say is that if you keep us plebs happy at lower level....even Dean, you would get the champs that wants to spend the big bucks and move on.

Saturday we had 15 Falken Vees and a handful Slick Vees. Dean won both but the slick vees with a humongous lead and lapped the last one. We had a party and blast...they joined us and left with a smile. We now have a few more members. Ed and them can confirm...31?? Going to have 20 ++ at NJMP.

Some mention cost and performance etc etc. For the most it's a case of value for money per lap in your car. Now I can race more races(done 282 now in a vee on three continents in four decades) per $ at more tracks and enjoy with my family the Formula Vee group having a blast. Its also the wives and girlfriends that have the fun at the Challenge Cup Series helping with the catering and organising etc. See the photos..........come and join us and have a wobbley pop(Your choice of beer...its free at the Challenge Cup Series)

[Johan W]

I do not need to call you anything. I just challenge your perception that it is the small budget FV participants that are in the majority. Possibly if choose a criteria that include even the most casual racer you might find the haves and have-nots about equal. If you weight the criteria using race participation numbers then the haves are clearly in control. I am not sure you are after catering to the majority in that case... are you?

The 'fact is' that there is no known correlation between cost reduction and FV class participation numbers. The class is dying and there is no known fix. SCCA and road racing are dying and there is no know fix. Those of us who have raced for decades just want live out the rest of our racing careers in a manner that is most enjoyable to us.... that means on slicks. We are not interested in unproven efforts to save FV.. SCCA.. or road racing.

Brian

Wrong on this for sure...some of the "haves" don't want to spend their budgets on four or five races. Rather spend that same money racing on more tracks and enjoy. The lower budget racer want to take part just as much as you but guess you don't get the fact that they can buy a tire/wheel package that can last several years taking part in selected races.

Why don't you want the young enthusiastic low budget/student etc racer to enjoy a few races a year? On slicks you eliminate them....for sure. Have three Vees...my son-in-law want to race one on his budget that allow the Falken option that he can afford. So cost reduction Brian, equal higher participation numbers in our household.

[Johan W]

Quite the lively discussion! Kudos all around!

GR-- great accents and highlights.
Stoezel-- I dig the comment about tire size.
Et all--

It seems like there are many layers to the problem. Just not, I'm not going to solve them, just try to point them out.

Hoosier and many folks may want a quick answer, and maybe that's OK. It won't solve the rain tires however.

What are FVs around the world doing? What are the FVs in UK/Ireland/GER/Brazil/AUS running?
Granted, they are our FSTs, etc... but we should be looking at it. I think that is where the rim size comes into the discussion. Can we get the appropriate adapters to stay 5 lug drum for US FV/ CAN 1200?

Can we say that US FST can migrate to worldwide FV(1600)?

Can we (worldwide) collude on tires?

These forums where we beat on each other is exactly how we can make this all happen. There just needs to be a lot more beatings.

Fos

This is the most posts in the sortest time... I bet we have an Apexspeed record brewing here...

South Africa had Michelin MXL's since I started in the seventies (185/70 14 rear and 185/60 14 fronts) They changed a few years ago to Hankooks. Hankook sponsor the series with free tires(1 set per season - 10 weekends - 20 races)
They never had slicks or rain slicks...only radials.

Its also the healthiest formula in SA with the most participants.

[Johan W]

You or anyone else know for sure why participation is down. Just useless speculation.

Can you or any of the FV historians can go back and show any rule change that precipitated a reduction in FV participation. It has never happened that I know of. Over the history of FV the majority of competitor eventually always get what they wanted. For someone new to the class some of the rules look stupid now.... but at the time I can assure you the rules were exactly what we wanted.

Brian

If everything is equal...tires make a difference. Over the history of Vee, changes in rules do have huge reductions.

We had between 40 to 45 Vees(max allowed to enter at Kyalami) prior to 1981. In 1981(not 100% sure of year) Ken Yanish with some help changed a Caldwell into a watercooled Vee. The following year SCA allowed the introduction of the Golf Powered Vees. Our entries halved the following year. We as the minority pushed for change and succeeded. I've build 14 Lagus Vees that won the constructors champs a few times. You would find the evidence on the "Trans Oranje Constructors Champs" trophy. It's a shame that you think light of a group that enjoy close racing not knowing us/me. I don't know you and wish to meet you at one of the Callenge Cup races. Your welcome to do a test day in my Mysterian on Falkens.

ps. It's not always the majority that push for change and yes...change of rules do have an influence. In this case tires would have a positive influence.

[Rolling Stone]

I do not need to call you anything. I just challenge your perception that it is the small budget FV participants that are in the majority. Possibly if choose a criteria that include even the most casual racer you might find the haves and have-nots about equal. If you weight the criteria using race participation numbers then the haves are clearly in control. I am not sure you are after catering to the majority in that case... are you?

The 'fact is' that there is no known correlation between cost reduction and FV class participation numbers. The class is dying and there is no known fix. SCCA and road racing are dying and there is no know fix. Those of us who have raced for decades just want live out the rest of our racing careers in a manner that is most enjoyable to us.... that means on slicks. We are not interested in unproven efforts to save FV.. SCCA.. or road racing.

Brian

Unbelievably Selfish attitudeyou have been and are in the wrong class of racing,actually I shouldnt use the word "class".

[Rolling Stone]

I have no idea what you are asking.... But i will happily to agree that the Falken Package is and will always be the most cost effective option. Now if I implied anything other than that recently... then I am happy to stand corrected. I am not here to just make pointless arguments. Nothing intellectually entertaining in that.

Brian

Oh I see! your an intellectual,oh! well thats different,us uneducated peons are not on the same level

[Rolling Stone]

I am questioning the competitiveness of the cars as a limiting factor in the evaluation of the performance for the Falken package. Do you really expect the rest of the US to accept the opinion of competitors in vintage to regional level cars when evaluating a tire package?

Are we or are we not talking apples and oranges when it comes to the level of competitiveness of the ... cars ... involve in this discussion?

Brian

NOW theres an ELITIST!!!you are "A legend in your own Mind"

[Rolling Stone]

I have never done a poll. My mailings are a get out the vote effort. The poll I have referred to was from the FV Committee and the results were posted today in this thread.

I have absolutely NO DOUBT that everyone thinks that cheaper tires or whatever creates more participation.

FACT: that has and will never be proven scientifically. You and other are free to base their decisions on non scientific facts. Is that not the essence of politics?

Brian

Professor Brian Hawking

[Johan W]

Quite the lively discussion! Kudos all around!



Can we say that US FST can migrate to worldwide FV(1600)?

Can we (worldwide) collude on tires?


Fos

This is the most posts in the sortest time... I bet we have an Apexspeed record brewing here...

The SA Vees have the 1400 VW Golf engine with two 40DCOE Webers. VW front beam with inboard shocks.

Tires would remain an issue worldwide due to sponsorships. The series in SA get a huge Hankook sponsor and is also called Hankook Formula Vee series.

[Johan W]

How many are you?
Do any of you race outside of Canada or the NE Region? If so how many?

If you allow the Falkens it would be me for sure. Would like to go to as many as possible new tracks.

[veeracer98]

SCCA members:

Write to the CRB, ask for a spec tire.

All the "discussion" on this forum won't do a damn thing to get anything changed

[Mason66]

SCCA members:

Write to the CRB, ask for a spec tire.

All the "discussion" on this forum won't do a damn thing to get anything changed

Posted earlier in the thread!

The link below will direct you to the SCCA rule making flow chart which shows the steps that should be taken by club members to have rules either adjusted or implemented in a particular car class. You will need to zoom in on page 2 of this link to see the break down of the rulemaking process. It does state that letters to the club office are gathered and given to the CRB for consideration, if enough letters are written on a specific matter.

I have also added the link to submit a request to the SCCA as well. Feel free to share your thoughts on this comment.

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1432133572

https://www.crbscca.com/

[Mason66]

Take a look at the times from race 2 of each the SCCA Major from today and the Challenge Cup Series race at Pittsburgh international two weeks ago. I don't see such a dramatic performance difference, that the Falkens should not be considered as a secondary or primary choice for the class.

[ATTACH]55349
[ATTACH]55350

[BLS]

David,

Appears to be a tad more than 5%, which seems to be what everyone says.

[B Farnham]

Theres at least another 1-2 seconds in the radial package with some work on the set up and some more seat time. I think 5% is something we could all live with when you're saving thousands in tires.

[Steve Bamford]

Probably the best way to compare the tires on the weekends that makes sense to me is there were 16 cars at the Challenge Cup vs 6 cars this past weekend at the same track. I know which event I would want to race in.

[problemchild]

Thanks Noel.
There are very good reasons why people that want to use this tire should send a letter. There may be even more reasons why those who don't want to use this tire should send a letter supporting its inclusion as an alternate tire.

[AVR_Shane]

I have been quietly listening on the outside of this conversation, mostly because I don't have a horse in this race since I have only ever raced once on the south side of the border in a modern Vee on slicks. I do, however, hope that this outcome will one day impact me and/or my kid(s) racing.

My two cents on a couple things...

Brian Harding...you have quite the opinion for someone who I have never heard of in the Formula Vee community....so I did a quick "google" search on you. "Brian Harding Formula Vee"....first two results are a guy named Brian McCarthy who races formula vee, and then a guy named Alan Harding who raced vee in 1962. Now, just for comparison sake, I also googled Noel Brigido, and first result found that he was the Produce Person of the year a few years back, but at least there's a nice picture of him so you can see what he looks like!

So who are you? What is your stake to claim? You made a couple intakes? (I found that out looking way down the google results) Do you race? Who are your contacts who you value so highly and none of whom seem to know any of the people promoting this tire, including Greg Rice, Ray Carmody, and Ed Womer? I respect their opinion. I respect Michael V's opinion, because I know of him as a highly competitive racer in the formula vee community. I am very curious to see what he thinks of the tire package if he gets the opportunity to strap a set on.

Here's a idea Brian, why don't you try a set? I'm sure we can get a set out to you on the west coast without too much issue! I'll contribute $20 towards getting you a set, and I'm sure many more will help as well. Then you decide for yourself, and since you are so respected on the west coast, you can help promote the package on a national wide level.

I don't care if you know who I am, and I don't care what you think about me as a person or a racer.

[jpetillo]

Brian's been part of the FV community for much longer than I have, and frequently posts. But he's in the US, not Canada.

[AVR_Shane]

Brian's been part of the FV community for much longer than I have, and frequently posts. But he's in the US, not Canada.

I understand that Brian has been in the community a long time...longer than I have been as well. I'm not trying to make this about him, I am simply trying to understand why his single opinion seems to weigh that much more than other people's single opinions.

I am serious about the proposal to get Brian a set of radials to try on his car in order for him to be able to make a fully informed opinion on the package for himself. Whatever the opinion was, be it positive or negative, I would be more open to listening to what he had to say about them after a proper test.

[craigs]

I have never met Brian, and don't need to, to know that he is a member of the FV community and as such does not want to see it go away.

Everyone on here has opinions on what FV does or doesn't need, to not only stop the SCCA wide participation drop, but to increase participation in "our" class.

I hope that we can all respect each other's viewpoints and try and understand why each other feels the way we do. If we do that it will help drive a better direction that we can all get behind.

I don't give a crap if Brian has or hasn't raced in years, same with Greg, or FF drivers telling us what is right for SCCA FV. Everyone deserves a certain amount of respect as part of the FV community. Up until they start resorting to petty personal attacks.

Craig

PS - I don't count FST people, they just want to steal FV drivers, so have at em.

[AVR_Shane]

Craig, I agree with everything you say, and I do believe that Brian has the clubs best interest at heart when it comes down to it!

I wrote that very carefully to not verbally attack Brian. Yes, it was directed at him, and if it ended up coming across inappropriate, that was not the intention.

I don't know Brian at all, and simply am asking where his opinions come from and who they represent.

[Daryl DeArman]

Brian doesn't race, no need to send him a set of Falkens. There is an associate of Brian's who has been racing on Falkens here in SoCal this year. This associate is a really nice guy, has raced a few majors on Hoosiers and done other non-SCCA races on both AR's and Falkens.

I believe his associate likes the Falkens, probably would moreso if he was racing against people also on the Falkens. I believe Brain doesn't want to see/support a tire that makes the cars 2seconds/lap slower than the AR's. Possibly due to the run group combinations out here.