Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[FVEE56]

I've read all the post about the Falkens, good and bad. I was not sure what to expect. A west coast engineer who never ran them was against them, I normally don't read his post because they are always negative, But I was at Pocono for the regional and tried the Falkens out. I am now Pro Falken tire. I made no change to the car, just bolted them on. My nephew Jack set the fast lap on day 2 and runs the same set up as the regular slicks. I will be ordering a set for myself. The experience was GREAT. My brother will try them out in New Jersey in a few weeks. Try them out before you knock them.

[vdrcr]

This is the part where your FV friends speak up and say" Of course we will find away to keep you in our race group. We cannot afford to send several FVs to another race group. Car counts are way too important. We want you to come out and participate as often as you possibly can'.

Ha! I was hoping someone might say something to that effect!
Around these parts, sometimes, FS is a different run group, and sometimes it's the same... I'd hate to be lumped ito wings n things if the rest of the vee guys had there own run group!

Maybe I should just start my own regional only group... FVF...

Mike

[craigs]

Mike if it is truly a concern for Palmer #1 you will have to go to the head steward to get FS with FV. I am sure they won't care.

For Palmer #2 and Thompson the supps haven't been published yet, but the way its looking FV will be with all other wings and things so FS will be running with FV.

Personally I don't give a crap what you run as long as you are there.

See you next Friday at the test day.

Craig

[Campbell Motorsport]

I support the efforts to find a spec tire for FV- it is long over due.

I just want to caution those thinking about doing races as an FS class car, that they might run into issues. FS is an SCCA class and has some rules per the GCR. Most of us think of it as a class to stick anyone that doesn’t conform to any other class- part true, but you do need to be homologated as an FS car.

From our early FST days, we found race organizers were more then willing to accommodate us when we were the only car. They want the entries, and 99% of them are trying to help and to grow the SCCA. My guess is that everyone will allow you to run with the FV class. Just, make your arrangements prior to arriving at the track so there are no surprises.

Larry Campbell
Campbell Motorsport

[FVRacer21]

Just for those who are too young to remember, here are the Club Vee rules for 1996 in NER:

Tire Rule NER Club Vee 1996

TIRES:
The following compounds only, would be allowed for CLUB FORMULA VEE in 1996
1. Hoosier 60 compound or Hoosier VROC
2. Goodyear 600 compound
3. Rain tires are free.

In addition, the following wheel tire combination would be legal for CLUB FORMULA VEE.
This tire is to allow drivers to reduce their tire expenditure even further, but there is no assurance of competitiveness. Steel wheels must mount directly to the drum with no spacers. Wheels are available from ………(company out of business)

1.a. 13" wheel, 5 1/2" front and 7" rear with standard VW offset
b. Toyo Proxes RA-I, tires size 185/60-13 F and 205/60-13 R
2.a. 14" wheel 6" wide with standard VW offset
b. Yokahama A008RS2, tire size 185/60-14

So no inventing the wheel (pun intended) is needed - we did it before and we can do it again...

ChrisZ

[craigs]

Sent my letter in requesting a spec Kumho T121. Available for about $50 each and we get to keep our current wheels.

[Hardingfv32]

Hoosier Tires would be happy to supply a Spec tire for FV. They request that the the tire be specified or developed through the SCCA Spec tire procedure just used by FF.

The simplest solution would be a more durable compound for the existing FV tire construction. The compound used on the SM Spec tire has been suggested. It is call SM7. I believe it is also used on the FF 1600 radial tire. The SM guys are very happy with the SM7's compound. See the comment below form a Runoffs champion. Over the last decade the OEM tire market has made improvements in compounding in the quest for better fuel economy. Hoosier has been able to use some of this new chemistry to make improvements in durability at minimal cost to performance. That is what this new SM7 compound is all about.

The SM7 compound on the current Hoosier FV bias slick construction should increase durability 2-3X with a minimal or small decrease in performance. To be clear there is still a loss in performance when you increase durability. This compromise is just more limited with the new compounding. Tires can be made available for evaluation in the context of the Spec tire evaluation process.

If you are interested retaining most of the performance of the current slick tire then contact the CRB with your view.

1) FV wants a Spec Tire

2) FV competitors want a tire that has the same dimensions and greater durability than the current Hoosier open competition tire. We wish to continue using slicks on the current wheels.

http://www.clubracingboard.com/


Jim Drago - SM Note that he is talking about races not events etc. and that the old SM6 used an old generation of compounding.

"The class loves the tire. Stickers are no longer the fastest or best cycle.* It eliminated what we were doing as far as stickering for qualifying and race with sm6 tire.* I think you can easily get 12 good cycles from them . *"personally" I can run a doubles majors on one set of stickers and then use them on the test day at the next.* I like to race on tires with 5 sessions or less, ideal being 2-4, but have raced and done well with 8 session tires as well. It depends a little on the track.*
In short, going from sm6 to sm7 has basically cut all of our tire budgets from 30-50%.* You will love the tire. It is also faster for us than the old tire."

[Amon]

I'll support the Falkens, Toyo's or Kumho's as long as they provide 3 years of use without any major decline in performance, and are priced right. My son ran on the Falkens several weeks ago and enjoyed them so my vote is for them at the moment.
The national status quo can't continue if we want this class to strive or even exist in another twenty years.

Mark

88' Citation #66

[Mason66]

"I think you can easily get 12 good sessions"
The current Falken Tire used in the FV Challenge Cup Series as well as in Canada has a life expectancy of up to 3-4 seasons with no drop in performance. Why have Hoosier develop a tire that will only delay immediate savings to the current drivers looking to save money? The less we spend on tires the more money we have to invest into actually racing our cars, would you not agree?

[Matt Clark]

Sent my letter in requesting a spec Kumho T121. Available for about $50 each and we get to keep our current wheels.

Wait... isn't that a compact spare tire model? Like, the ones only intended for speeds up to 50mph at 60psi?

http://www.sears.com/kumho-temp-spar...p-09559911000P

[craigs]

You got a speedometer? I sure dont.

[Matt Clark]

Edit: Sarcasm detector malfunctioned

[craigs]

Brian:

I like it. I go through two sets of Hoosiers a year that become my practice tires the next year. If this cuts me down to one set per year then I think this is a viable solution. It would also allow me to keep my current rain tires too (I assume).

A current FV sized SM7 is more appealing to me than the Falkens because I would not have to invest in three sets of new wheels to run full tread depth rains, shaved inters, and fully shaved "slicks". Just being honest, if we actually need them or not, this is what many of us would do. You really think we need the red Penskes, concave head lugnuts, or Lithium batteries?

I am all for a reasonably priced slick that fits on our current wheels that will last double what our current Hoosiers do. This gets me to one set per year - not too shabby for 6-8 weekends.

Unfortunately, I had already written my letter to the CRB earlier today with my firm stance.

Craig

[Mason66]

Why would you need no many set's of tires? Have you raced on the Falkens to know whether there is an advantage in shaving the them or not?

[problemchild]

Perhaps someone should should announce the FF spec tire before another class embraces the concept. I am expecting that there will be a lot of disappointed FF racers. By all accounts, Hoosier just tells SCCA what tire they will provide and SCCA says OK. If I was Hoosier, I would like that plan too.

Hoosier needs to be pushed to provide the tire that most FV racers seem to want.

Are we allowed to contact the CRB if we want a different tire, or different parameters, than Brian wants?

[craigs]

Hi David:

No I have not, but I still would anyway as would I assume many of the other competitors.

Again it goes back to things like the red penskes or refreshing heads/engines when we do. How many people have objective data before they send their heads back to be cleaned? Why do some racers change oil every weekend? How many people ran on the red penskes before they bought them? You dont need first hand experience to spend money.

Craig

[Daryl DeArman]

Wait... isn't that a compact spare tire model? Like, the ones only intended for speeds up to 50mph at 60psi?

On a 3500# sedan, after the tire has been sitting in a trunk for 15 years...

Do you only go around 35mph turns at 35mph too?

[problemchild]

Why would you need no many set's of tires? Have you raced on the Falkens to know whether there is an advantage in shaving the them or not?

If you shave them, they won't last 4 years ..... maybe just one

[craigs]

Also a larger contact patch which I have a hard time getting it through my head that it wouldn't help. I think my English teacher just cried a bit.

What I mean is shaving will give more rubber against the road. This has to help with ultimate grip.

[Mason66]

I couldn't agree more. Your 100% correct with everything you state in your reply. But everything you mentioned improves the reliability of one's race car. The cost of the reds are a one time expense that doesn't cost $750 a weekend. What we are talking about is the competitive edge of those with limited budgets vs. those with endless budgets. Before racing the Falkens these last two weekend with the Challenge Cup Series my race entries were based on my tire budget. Racing with this series on the Falkens eliminates that concern.

[craigs]

OK Matt cause you gotta go so fast, what about these below, again same size wheel, readily available, cheap radial, make for close racing, and not the high cost of the Falkens:

https://www.onlinetires.com/products...a+fd1+68v.html

[Amon]

Craig,

They're tooooo expensive!


Mark

[Matt Clark]

lol... well, they look like they'd move plenty of water in a wet race at least.

[craigs]

Honest though - what about something like this:

http://www.nankangusa.com/tires/perf.../nankang-ns-2r

Proven:
The NS-2R is the control tyre for race championships such as the UK FunCup Endurance Champsionship, both the English and Scottish Compact Cup, Tegiwa Civic Cup and MaX5’, the NS-2R is proving very popular in the pits and amongst driving enthusiasts.

Fast lap after lap:
Whilst most track tyres only have one thing in mind, the NS-2R hosts an array of talents, not only as a fast tyre, but as a consistently fast tyre, lap after lap come rain or shine. The tread design also gives the driver the confidence to drive to and from a race meeting or track day in dry or often wet conditions without the need to change tyres at the event. The NS-2R is available from all of our Nankang performances centres.

[nbrigido]

This is one of the reason a spec tire will never work.

There are camps that want a Slick, performance is more important that cost.

There are camps that want Cost savings, willing to sacrifice performance in an effort to save cost.

Both have their reasons.

All we are going to do at the end of the day is divide the series, which it already is. So why go down the path of a spec tire.

So the battle is now on, who can put in the most votes for a spec tire (Slick vs Radial). That is what this has become.

[Matt King]

Also a larger contact patch which I have a hard time getting it through my head that it wouldn't help. I think my English teacher just cried a bit.

What I mean is shaving will give more rubber against the road. This has to help with ultimate grip.

That's not why tires are usually shaved. The reason certain DOT R compound tires (like the Toyo RA1s that were actually molded in such a way that they were intended to be shaved for dry use to about 4/32s) were faster when shaved was because reducing the depth of the tread blocks kept them from overheating and getting "greasy," causing a loss of grip. This is a common issue and solution with relatively heavy sedans that run those type of tires, but by most accounts it's not beneficial with lightweight formula cars because they do not have the tread heating problem like tin tops.

[Johan W]

I completely agree that simple logic would dictate the use of Falkens. But you have to have something that the US majority can get behind. I can engineer around any mess but I am not the only person voting.

Repeat... Why were Falkens disregard by FF? I am going to assume that the performance of the Falkens is too low. Is the FF driver population any different than the FV driver population.

Driving on the Falkens is going to create an experience that is too negative for the majority of US FV competitors that have always been on slicks. It just is not going to sell. Just a few negative comments will doom the Falken package.

A compromise has to be developed that has more performance than the Falkens.

Brian

We(SA) raced for more then 20 years on Michelin MXL's(lower profile on the front) Now they race the fully sponsored Hankooks. They still have big fields and never used slicks.

Having said this I would like to have a lower profile Falken(cosmetic) in front but love the spec tire we are using right now. If Hankook sponsor FV in SA should we not look at Falken, Hankook or someone that support/sponsor our racing?

Brian, the negatives would be from those that never tried the Falkens or tried them in one of the races. Saturday was another gr8 day with three times the entries then the slick cladded vees. Three of the slick vees borrowed our Falkens and were very happy to be part of a group that keep on growing. Next race at NJR would have an easy 20 entries.

WATCH OUR FALKEN GROUP GROW. The huge success with our Challenge Cup Series proof of that.

[craigs]

Agree Matt. Same reason I used to shave victoracers back when I ran a car, but having more tire on the road on a shaved falken sure won't hurt grip.

[Matt King]

I don't see how shaving the treads give you more rubber on the road unless you shave them completely off down to the carcass of the tire. Otherwise all you are doing is making them shorter and reducing tire life, but not increasing the surface area of the block.

[Johan W]

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post

That fact is that outside the NE the average FV competitor has no knowledge of the Canadian spec tire combination. I fully appreciate the NE's comfort with the Canadian option but it does not translate into something that will sell across the whole US.

Brian you keep on mentioning the"Canadian Spec Tire"...it's a "CROSS BORDER SPEC TIRE" and growing in the US.

[problemchild]

So the battle is now on, who can put in the most votes for a spec tire (Slick vs Radial). That is what this has become.

I do not believe this will be the case. The FF guys are waiting for their vote. Hoosier will select a tire. Members may get a vote on whether they want it or not, but I would be surprised.

[Hardingfv32]

So the battle is now on, who can put in the most votes for a spec tire (Slick vs Radial). That is what this has become.

And is that not how it should be? The last tire survey indicated 75% of participants wanting to stay with slicks. Do you rally think that has changed. 95% of my recent contacts indicate a desire to stay with slicks.

Yes the majority favors maintaining performance over absolute minimum cost.

Brian

[problemchild]

And is that not how it should be? The last tire survey indicated 75% of participants wanting to stay with slicks. Do you rally think that has changed. 95% of my recent contacts indicate a desire to stay with slicks.

Yes the majority favors maintaining performance over absolute minimum cost.

Brian

That is clearly your opinion only.
Let us find out what the current numbers are!

If SCCA does not give the radial street tire option a fair opportunity, and lets Hoosier select a slick for the class, then it is just fooling itself and catering to the handful of serious Runoff racers. Times have changed. It is not 1995 anymore.

The ETPF game is on it would appear.

[nbrigido]

And is that not how it should be? The last tire survey indicated 75% of participants wanting to stay with slicks. Do you rally think that has changed. 95% of my recent contacts indicate a desire to stay with slicks.

Yes the majority favors maintaining performance over absolute minimum cost.

Brian

Your right. a proper vote is the only way. but it NEEDS TO INVOLVE EVERYONE WITH THE RIGHT INFORMATION. I thought the last survey mentioned that 75% wanted a SPEC tire?

As mentioned before, Apexspeed is only 5-10% of the actual racers? so anything started here without getting everyone involved means nothing. If we were to take a poll from the responses here. Radials win, done, game over.

If each region wants their own spec, so be it. It has been mentioned that AR makes a good slick that last a long time, but don't see that coming up??? I cannot and will not comment on that.

But at the end of the day this is fear driving this whole debate. Say what you will, but there was traction on a radial package that put fear into some that it might catch on and gain momentum. So let's start telling people how bad it is , or how unfair it it, or how people don't care about others making decisions without others. Which is not the case.

Our goal should be to put more cars on the track, bring more cars back to the track, get FV only races. what ever it takes.

If it means cost reduction, limiting specs (Wheels, Manifolds, weight...) so be it.

[nbrigido]

Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post

That fact is that outside the NE the average FV competitor has no knowledge of the Canadian spec tire combination. I fully appreciate the NE's comfort with the Canadian option but it does not translate into something that will sell across the whole US.

Brian you keep on mentioning the"Canadian Spec Tire"...it's a "CROSS BORDER SPEC TIRE" and growing in the US.

And that is scaring some people

[Hardingfv32]

It has been stated to me that it was 75% wanted to retain slicks. I do not have access to the poll to verify.

McCarthy stated that AR was not showing any interest a FV Spec tire. That said they are not going complete with Hoosier on performance or durability in a track test. Did AR have anything to offer the FF selection process.... no.

'...give the radial street tire option a fair opportunity...'

What in the world is a fair opportunity?? These are the simple facts:

Falkens are a low performance low cost of operation tire.
Hoosiers are a high performance high cost operation tire.

There are no other practical choices. A high performance DOT street radial is going to cost as much as a Hoosier slick and you are still straddled with wheel purchases and increased aero drag etc.

Now the FV Committee or CRB might want to test each tire to go through the motions politically and/or to validate their importance. Is this the fair opportunity you want?? It proves nothing that we do not already know... the Hoosiers are fast and Falkens very economical. Does this really have to be demonstrated?

What needs to be known by the decision makers is where along gradient of performance to low cost does each FV competitor stand. That simply is not possible without each competitor living with the two tire choices for a while. So really the decision maker is restricted to an unmeasured criteria: performance verses cost in the case of a FV Spec tire. The different committees will go through the motions but the decision is really very simple. Does anyone view this any differently?

If the majority see performance as the most important factor then what choice does the CRB have?

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

..... there was traction on a radial package that put fear into some that it might catch on and gain momentum. So let's start telling people how bad it is ....
Our goal should be to put more cars on the track, bring more cars back to the track, get FV only races. what ever it takes....

You are living a dream... the radial package is unknown outside the NE.

The success of the FF Spec tire effort and tearable wear with the Hoosiers in warm weather is what is motivating me. Called Hoosier... they told me what was possible and what needed done based on their FF experience.

To repeat: The SFRegion used ARs for a decade and now Regional FV is dead/gone. How can you then say this is about bring people back. You are not presenting a logical argument.

Brian

[Matt King]

Trying to implement a national spec radial tire is a losing battle. Hoosier has more clout with the SCCA than the entire FV class combined and that relationship will dictate the outcome of any action that runs through official SCCA channels. This needs to be a region by region grassroots effort if it's going to have any success, which means anyone wanting to be able to run a radial at the Runoffs for the win is going to be waiting a LONG time. The effort should be focused on rallying local racers to try the radial package. Let the Runoffs guys spend their money and do their thing. Everyone else can have a great time racing on a cheap tire and hopefully attract more people to come join them.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

The problem is, and has always been, that the people that vote for these rules are the die hard, elite, minority of the class. Most of them have no concern for the overall good of the class and just want to improve their own agendas.

The class is dying because we have lost the little guy that mostly runs at the regional level or might do an occasional Major here and there.

As Noel said a spec tire isn't the magical answer. We have a great spec tire rule in SFR and no one is racing this year.

The problems run way deeper then just a spec tire.....

[DanW]

The problem is, and has always been, that the people that vote for these rules are the die hard, elite, minority of the class. Most of them have no concern for the overall good of the class and just want to improve their own agendas.

The class is dying because we have lost the little guy that mostly runs at the regional level or might do an occasional Major here and there.

As Noel said a spec tire isn't the magical answer. We have a great spec tire rule in SFR and no one is racing this year.

The problems run way deeper then just a spec tire.....

Agree completely. SFR FV drivers took their marbles and went to the majors where they have their own run group and don't have to deal with the closing speeds of Formula Continentals and slow club fords that might break up their momentum in the pack.

Tires are only one element. Laguna and Sears Point entry fees are now $595 for a double regional. Thunderhill is $495, so just the price to get to grid is making many drivers more selective on when or where they race.

Regards,
Dan