Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[jpetillo]

http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-...lateral-force/

The link above contains a simple article summarized from milliken's race car vehicle dynamics book. It demonstrates and contains a plot of friction force vs. Slip angle for several tire types. The gentle curve of the street tire is easier to drive at the limit, period. This is actual data to support the theory, not seat of the pants opinion.

I know we don't want to turn this into a technical discussion, but Mike is exactly right on this - it's a well known fact. The lower sloped and more spread out curve both conspire to make it easier to drive at the limit. This has definitely been my experience as well. There are several books on this, but Milliken's has perhaps the most in-depth discussions on vehicle dynamics, although not necessarily for the layman.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-...lateral-force/

The link above contains a simple article summarized from milliken's race car vehicle dynamics book. It demonstrates and contains a plot of friction force vs. Slip angle for several tire types. The gentle curve of the street tire is easier to drive at the limit, period. This is actual data to support the theory, not seat of the pants opinion.

I'm not an engineer, heck I barely made it out of high school. I do believe experience and seat of the pants knowledge are relevant. I have not driven the faulken tires but I have raced for years on the harder compound FV tires. My experience is the harder compound tire is more difficult to drive fast on then the soft compound. I would expect a similar experience with the Faulken tires.

[Rolling Stone]

Of course it's ok for the majority of the class to want a tire to last 3 years. Who wouldn't? I would love it. But I, and many others, are not willing to sacrifice our driving experience of the slick to do so. I don't need to test them to understand the differences and physics indicates the increase draft alone handicaps anyone leading.

Again, I'm all in favor of a long lasting tire...but it needs to keep the same driving dynamics of what we currently have.

I would gladly come try the Falkens, but doing so this close to the runoffs on short notice would be foolish on my part. Next season I will make it a point to do so. FV isn't everyone's class, but it's as close to everone's class as racing can get. It takes a certain amount of means and dedication to participate. That's the unfortunate reality of racing. I'm all in favor of reducing this as much as possible...but not at the sacrifce of the current driving dynamics. For many of us, this is as high of a performing car we get to race and are not willing to accept a reduction in performance. What's the appeal of FV if we are bascially at street car level performance?

Again, I would gladdly accept a spec tire that performed like a true race car tire with much longer life then we currently have if it reduced tire bills.

But you are NOT driving a "TRUE RACECAR"please dont kid yourself!

[grapefarmeral]

You can look at technical stuff till the cows come home and you get as many takes on tire performance. There was a reference to Paul Haney in reference to radials being easier to drive on. In one of his books he states " "Drivers were used to operating at high slip angles with bias ply tires and the tires gave more warning at breakaway, so they were easier to drive at the limit."

Put the books down, stop postulating and DRIVE on the tires....

[FVRacer21]

One thing the last couple of posts have done is compare apples to oranges.

We are comparing a bias ply racing tire to a radial street tire.

In comparable sizes and vehicles, radial tires work at less slip angles than bias ply tires.

Also, the radial street tires are designed for a vehicle two to three times the weight of a FV.

For all my work with the Skip Barber Racing School, we found slicks covered up a lot of driving sins and you became a better driver on the street radials.

So the only real way to resolve this would be back-to-back testing with data acquisition.

ChrisZ

[problemchild]

As long as SCCA will use the same process to select a FV spec tire as they used to select the FF spec tire, the Falkens are not an option anyway so it is a moot point.

Anyone who wants people to be able to use Falkens, need to worry more about getting them approved as a legal alternate FV tire than a spec tire. Thanks!

[Daryl DeArman]

One thing the last couple of posts have done is compare apples to oranges.

We are comparing a bias ply racing tire to a radial street tire.

In comparable sizes and vehicles, radial tires work at less slip angles than bias ply tires.

Also, the radial street tires are designed for a vehicle two to three times the weight of a FV.

For all my work with the Skip Barber Racing School, we found slicks covered up a lot of driving sins and you became a better driver on the street radials.

So the only real way to resolve this would be back-to-back testing with data acquisition.

ChrisZ

Yep.

As to the article linked by Mike, "street tires" have changed a bit in the last 20 years (when that book was written) and "street tires" can cover a very, very wide range of performance attributes, physical construction and compounds. Who knows what kind of "street tire" that arbitrary green line represents? A 40 series radial sporting a manufacturers' 100 treadwear rating or a 78-series S-rated tire sporting a different manufactures' 480 treadwear rating? Those are distinctly different tires with distinctly different handling characteristics. Is A 5" wide medium/hard compound bias slick somewhere below that blue line and less peaky? A bias ply slick certainly isn't a "high performance slick".

[Amon]

Is any tire 5" wide considered "High performance"??

Mark

[Daryl DeArman]

A case could probably me made for a 5" wide sticky slick on a 5" wheel (kart) supporting maybe 80#....but I get your point.

[Hardingfv32]

As to the article linked by Mike, "street tires" have changed a bit in the last 20 years ....

And at the price the Falkens are sold at compared to other DOT radials... you can be certain that their design is about as good as a 20 year old tire. If DOT radials are to be considered for US FV they certainly would not include Falkens. A high performance tire like Toyo or Hoosier are about the same price as the current slick and you still need wheels.

Has anyone ever seen a FF on Falkens? The Falken brand was never even discussed in the context of a FF Spec tire. Why? They are not a high performance tire.

Brian

[Amon]

And at the price the Falkens are sold at compared to other DOT radials... you can be certain that their design is about as good as a 20 year old tire. If DOT radials are to be considered for US FV they certainly would not include Falkens. A high performance tire like Toyo or Hoosier are about the same price as the current slick and you still need wheels.

Has anyone ever seen a FF on Falkens? The Falken brand was never even discussed in the context of a FF Spec tire. Why? They are not a high performance tire.

Brian

And you know this how? By all of your experience racing on the DOT radial?

[Hardingfv32]

John LaRue

"Once the criteria was determined and it was agreed that a spec tire would be appropriate, the club then had to reach out to manufacturers to determine if they were interested in becoming a supplier. Obviously, as has been stated earlier, the supplier has to be committed to supplying tires to adequately cover the FF field. From what I understand, RFP's were sent out to all known manufacturers. I have confirmed that Toyo received and acknowledged the RFP, but did not submit a proposal. Regardless of how great these tires may be they are a non-issue in this discussion. The Club would not adopt a spec tire without entering into an agreement which will insure the supply of said tire."

Sounds like another nail in the coffin. If Toyo did not respond what are the chances the Falkin will. Do any of you guys have the gumption to contact Falken and get a sign of support for your effort? Sure would be helpful to your effort.

Brian

[Steve Davis]

My ALTERNATE TIRE/WHEEL proposal http://www.formulavee.org/search.php?search_id=newposts would allow ANY treaded DOT radial and therefore would NOT be specific to a manufacturer... but would, of course, ALLOW the Falken as well as others. Since it would not be a "Spec Tire", SCCA should have no requirement for manufacturer support.

I still think this is the ONLY way that FV can get a Decent, LONG LASTING tire "on the ground" so to speak, without disenfranchising a good part of the existing FV fields. It's not a Spec Tire, but it's a small step in that direction and could easily lead to a nation wide "DOT pro series" within existing SCCA races.

[Hardingfv32]

My ALTERNATE TIRE/WHEEL proposal...

This is a pointless exercise that will only raise doubts with in the CRB about FV's commitment to a Spec tire.

Proposing this as way to experiment with DOT radial options is not logical. Almost be definition those hoping to save money using a DOT radial are operating on a reduced budget. How can they be expected to spend money on rims and wheels to just experiment? Realistically how many FV participants are going to this type of experiment? So a very few like what find.. how does that get translated into any action? We have a very happy group on Falkens and they can not put a dent into the FV competitor bias for slicks.

What about the various types of DOT radials available for such an experiment? This is not a well though out proposal.

Brian

[Amon]

This is a pointless exercise that will only raise doubts with in the CRB about FV's commitment to a Spec tire.

Proposing this as way to experiment with DOT radial options is not logical. Almost be definition those hoping to save money using a DOT radial are operating on a reduced budget. How can they be expected to spend money on rims and wheels to just experiment? Realistically how many FV participants are going to this type of experiment? So a very few like what find.. how does that get translated into any action? We have a very happy group on Falkens and they can not put a dent into the FV competitor bias for slicks.

What about the various types of DOT radials available for such an experiment? This is not a well though out proposal.

Brian

Brian, I mean "your Tire highness",

The cost for rims AND DOT tires are NO more than a set of Hoosier slicks, and they last three years so what are you confused about? You call it an experiment when we call it cost savings and you must be Nostradamus (sp?) with your predictions? It's not like the FV competitor numbers are growing and I question what you and others who want to stay the course are so afraid of???? What, growing numbers and single run groups???????

[Hardingfv32]

...without disenfranchising a good part of the existing FV fields...

Do not worry about disenfranchising anyone. The adoption of a non-Falken spec tire is not going to effect the Challenge series. They have the tire they want under the auspices of a Regional Supp. No one else in the US is attempting to use DOT radials in SCCA events.

The Falken group has a sincere belief that their wheel/tire choice is the best for all US FV... but that fact is they derive no benefit from its adoption as the FV Spec tire.

Brian

[budawe]

[/QUOTE]
Anyone who wants people to be able to use Falkens, need to worry more about getting them approved as a legal alternate FV tire than a spec tire. Thanks![/QUOTE]

Huh? All you need to do is convince your friends to join you and petition your region. The supplemental regulations can cover an alternative rim as well.

Here's the actual FF survey, the results have been posted previously.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF A SPEC TIRE IN FF?

• Do you support the idea of SCCA adopting a spec tire for FF? Y/N
• Do you support adoption of a rule which would permit any approved DOT tire to be used in FF? Y/N
• Assuming that SCCA adopts a tire rule for FF is it important to consider “at track” service in making a determination as to which tire(s) to utilize? Y/N
• Would you object to the elimination of the cantilever design for the rear tire in FF? Y/N
• Understanding that some DOT type tires will be heavier than a purpose built race tire is this a concern? Y/N
• Is the tire diameter of concern? Y/N
• If the tire diameter is of concern how much variation is acceptable?
• Do you support the idea of utilizing a radial type tire in FF? Y/N
• Do you support limiting the number of tires that can be used during a race weekend (qualifying and races)? If so, how many should be allowed?
• Rank the following by importance:

· Cost
· Durability (overall mileage)
· Ultimate Performance
· Consistency (fall off between heat cycles)
· Drivability
· Contingency Program
· Universal application (wet & dry with same tire)
· USA manufacturer
· Diameter (is the tire at or about the same nominal diameter as tires which are currently used in SCCA FF racing)

• If a slick spec tire is adopted do you favor a spec rain tire or should rains be left open? SPEC/OPEN
• Should the spec tire be a universal treaded tire that can be used in dry or wet conditions? Y/N
• Should the rule specify the size tire to be used for front and rear? Y/N
• If a treaded DOT tire is used should competitors be permitted to shave the tire? Y/N
• If shaving is not permitted how do you suggest that this be policed?
• Assuming that a spec tire will not provide the same level of performance as the current offerings what would an acceptable decrease in performance be by percentage of lap time?
• When would you like to see this rule implemented? 6/2015 or 1/2016

[Hardingfv32]

The cost for rims AND DOT tires are NO more than a set of Hoosier slicks...

You are assuming that the experimenter is going to go to choose Falken. Why when Toyo and Hoosier make tires with superior performance. Unfortunately they cost as much as the Hoosier slick.

If the majority want performance on the order of the current slick... would it not be logical that the experimenter would want a high performance DOT radial to test?

Brian

[Amon]

You are assuming that the experimenter is going to go to choose Falken. Why when Toyo and Hoosier make tires with superior performance. Unfortunately they cost as much as the Hoosier slick.

If the majority want performance on the order of the current slick... would it not be logical that the experimenter would want a high performance DOT radial to test?

Brian

If they cost as much as a Hoosier slick, then why would they choose the Toyo's or Hoosier's over the Falkens when cost is the prevelant determination? You appear confused by the discussion that's now several pages in length with the cost and performance subtopics?

Mark

[Rolling Stone]

If they cost as much as a Hoosier slick, then why would they choose the Toyo's or Hoosier's over the Falkens when cost is the prevelant determination? You appear confused by the discussion that's now several pages in length with the cost and performance subtopics?

Mark

Like you I just dont get it?the man seems confused its like running around in circles it doesnt seem to matter what anyone says wether its tires or whatever I have given up.

[problemchild]

My ALTERNATE TIRE/WHEEL proposal http://www.formulavee.org/search.php?search_id=newposts would allow ANY treaded DOT radial and therefore would NOT be specific to a manufacturer... but would, of course, ALLOW the Falken as well as others. Since it would not be a "Spec Tire", SCCA should have no requirement for manufacturer support.

I still think this is the ONLY way that FV can get a Decent, LONG LASTING tire "on the ground" so to speak, without disenfranchising a good part of the existing FV fields. It's not a Spec Tire, but it's a small step in that direction and could easily lead to a nation wide "DOT pro series" within existing SCCA races.

We need to seek compromises that unit the group, even if it means two groups on different tires. I would certainly modify my proposal, or support another proposal, if enough people can unite into a single group with common purpose. SCCA is incapable of doing anything other than throwing up roadblocks, many top racers are just protecting their own interests, so this needs to come from the ground up.

This should be in another thread with my original alternate tire thread. Perhaps somebody can convince a moderator to arrange that.

[wyztek]

....Make it a gentleman's agreement at your home racetrack to run one type of tire. No endless discussions and committee meetings. If it turns out to be a bad idea just go back to the "Arms Race" as before. This has worked well in Northwest Canada with the Formula Fords where they have all used American Racers.

A couple of us in BC a planning to do this for next year in Vee's. Yes, anybody that shows up with Hoosiers will walk away from us, but it will be a hollow victory.

And finally, why are American Racers so ignored? Are they too easy to drive on? I've got 27 heat cycles on my current set and they seem to have lost about a half second per lap from new.

[problemchild]

My ALTERNATE TIRE/WHEEL proposal http://www.formulavee.org/search.php?search_id=newposts would allow ANY treaded DOT radial and therefore would NOT be specific to a manufacturer... but would, of course, ALLOW the Falken as well as others. Since it would not be a "Spec Tire", SCCA should have no requirement for manufacturer support.

I still think this is the ONLY way that FV can get a Decent, LONG LASTING tire "on the ground" so to speak, without disenfranchising a good part of the existing FV fields. It's not a Spec Tire, but it's a small step in that direction and could easily lead to a nation wide "DOT pro series" within existing SCCA races.

After reading through your other thread Steve, it has the same old problems. The same 3 guys are fighting against it as they do on this thread. If the DOT tires are so unwanted, why are people afraid to let them in as field-fillers? Most of the FV community is so wary of SCCA, that the notion of approaching race organizers to change Supps so they can show up with DOT tires is way too intimidating. And then, many in favor of DOTs seem to want to reinvent the concept. The Falken tire package is a fully developed and proven formula that has been developed over 35 years. The field sizes are the biggest in North America.

One way or another, with 55% support for a DOT tire concept, the FV community needs find a way to get more people on track to fully enjoy racing without tire bills.

[nbrigido]

And at the price the Falkens are sold at compared to other DOT radials... you can be certain that their design is about as good as a 20 year old tire. If DOT radials are to be considered for US FV they certainly would not include Falkens. A high performance tire like Toyo or Hoosier are about the same price as the current slick and you still need wheels.

Has anyone ever seen a FF on Falkens? The Falken brand was never even discussed in the context of a FF Spec tire. Why? They are not a high performance tire.

Brian

Brain, again I have no idea where you are getting your data or information. What I do know is that your don't have PERSONAL Experience with the Radial Package to be able to comment on the performance characteristics and/or driving experience. I will even go as far as saying that 80% or more of the current FV community does not have that experience. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but is does prevent proper educated discussion.

The reason FALKEN has come up in the tire discussion, simply, it is a PROVEN package that works for the intended purpose.

The Reason TOYO has come up in FF, it is a PROVEN package that works for the intended purpose.

The Reason Hoosier has come up as a slick, again a PROVEN package for the intended purpose.

So enough of trying to start totally unfounded arguments, based on here say and speculation and stay with the facts.

No other tire mentioned (aside of the AR) has the History or Data to back it up. Yes There will be tire companies that will say "we can make a better tire", but again, no data.

It is about time the FV come together and work for the betterment of the entire class. Not personal opinion.

BTW, I think Falken has a pretty good Motorsport following, as do Toyo and Hoosier. But again what does that matter to the FV community.

[nbrigido]

This is a pointless exercise that will only raise doubts with in the CRB about FV's commitment to a Spec tire.

Proposing this as way to experiment with DOT radial options is not logical. Almost be definition those hoping to save money using a DOT radial are operating on a reduced budget. How can they be expected to spend money on rims and wheels to just experiment? Realistically how many FV participants are going to this type of experiment? So a very few like what find.. how does that get translated into any action? We have a very happy group on Falkens and they can not put a dent into the FV competitor bias for slicks.

What about the various types of DOT radials available for such an experiment? This is not a well though out proposal.

Brian

So let's air out all the Dirty Laundry. Brian, this is your post WORD FOR WORD from Formula Vee.org From August 20th.

Your opinions have nothing to do with other of FV in general or even about growing the class. It has more to do WHO shows up to the track and maybe lessen the experience.

We still have no answer on how you supported the package one day and hated it the next.

After reading this post below I can honestly say the Fear that a Radial Package might be approved, is striking some people very hard. I say the next thread is control the manifolds (I call 500 Posts in less then 7 days).

A dual or optional tire wheel rule is a completely unnecessary. Allowing the FV Committee to 'study' is a complete waste of time. The FF spec tire process toke a good 9 months. We do no need the FV Committee wasting valuable time on a pointless option... and one that the CRB would never approve!

1) The Majors are for competing at the highest level of Club racing... not for participating. We pay a lot of money to maintain this restriction.

2) I know West of the Rockies Regional SCCA FV racing is gone. FV racing exists only at the Major level and none of the current participants would dream of using DOT radials. No retired regional level competitor is going to pay Major level entry fees just to get track time. A test day is a much better value.

3) So you run a illegal wheel package at a Regional event... what slick runner is going to make the effort to protest you? No official is going to even notice. When was the last time you ever saw any FV protested for a car violation at a Regional race? If you want to participate on DOT radials no one is going to stop you.

This whole idea is not worth the Committees limited resources.
Brian

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

The comments below are based on the previous post.

I plan to run the major races next year and would gladly run the falken tire if everyone else will
Additionally, I will probably run the America Racers at some events against the Hoosiers.

Funny thing, the last time I saw a protest in FV in our region it was against Brian Harding and he packed up and left rather then dealing with the protest. Hmmmmmm

[Daryl DeArman]

My ALTERNATE TIRE/WHEEL proposal http://www.formulavee.org/search.php?search_id=newposts would allow ANY treaded DOT radial and therefore would NOT be specific to a manufacturer....

Talk about unintended consequences.

A Hoosier R7 is more expensive than the current Hoosier R55a slick. Could be a performance advantage and likely won't produce the number of fast heat cycles a R60 or AR would.

If you want a DOT radial to be allowed, some strong consideration must be given to how you are going to define "treaded" as using the word ANY could open up a can of worms and create a problem exactly like the one you are trying to solve.

[Mark Filip]

If they cost as much as a Hoosier slick, then why would they choose the Toyo's or Hoosier's over the Falkens when cost is the prevelant determination? You appear confused by the discussion that's now several pages in length with the cost and performance subtopics?

Mark

They will choose the best DOT option regardless of cost to win.

[budawe]

I'm not an engineer but I stayed at a Holiday Inn once, sorry guys, Michael is right about driving street tires. The real challenge with going fast on treaded tires is to not scrub too much speed off. How they feel to the driver is easily misleading. I love to slide around as much as the next guy, but it's not really fast. This whole discussion is moot if everyone is on the same tire.

Daryl just made a point that the solo community figured out. A designer street "DOT" tire can be more costly than slicks and really don't last any longer than a gumball. Go to any road race that use a "street" tire and you'll see grooved slicks. Solo adopted a minimum compound (hardness) grade to avoid this pitfall.

[Daryl DeArman]

Michael is right about driving street tires. The real challenge with going fast on treaded tires is to not scrub too much speed off. How they feel to the driver is easily misleading.

Yep, one of the reasons that I believe being fast on street radials is more difficult than bias ply slicks.

Not sure how you equate that statement with "Mcihael is right about driving street tires". Michael is arguing that it is easier and will remove much of the driver skill from the equation.

[fvee62]

Mike,
I was glad to see you join in the debate over the tire situation. I know your opinions carry a lot of weight within the F-Vee community.
I have been on the Falkens all season and in my experience, they actually seem to have very good grip - probably because of their width. However, having a much harder compound than a typical Vee slick, any significant bumps or disruptions in the track surface requires immediate, very quick correction on the drivers part. When they break loose there is very little warning and you really need to be ready to catch the car.
I feel the Hoosier slick has a more progressive lead-up to it's traction limit and is more predictable in bumpy situations - and at the limit.
From my experience running both tires I actually think the Falken -even though not as fast overall as the Hoosier- is the more challenging tire to drive.
Just my two-cents worth.

[grapefarmeral]

Mike,
I was glad to see you join in the debate over the tire situation. I know your opinions carry a lot of weight within the F-Vee community.
I have been on the Falkens all season and in my experience, they actually seem to have very good grip - probably because of their width. However, having a much harder compound than a typical Vee slick, any significant bumps or disruptions in the track surface requires immediate, very quick correction on the drivers part. When they break loose there is very little warning and you really need to be ready to catch the car.
I feel the Hoosier slick has a more progressive lead-up to it's traction limit and is more predictable in bumpy situations - and at the limit.
From my experience running both tires I actually think the Falken -even though not as fast overall as the Hoosier- is the more challenging tire to drive.
Just my two-cents worth.

This is coming from someone that Has worked on Formula B, Can-Am, Trans Am and a Runoff's winning production car, plus has been racing Formula Vee for 40 years... a very impressive two-cents

[Daryl DeArman]

deleted.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Speed Sport Engineering View Post
http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-...lateral-force/

This is actual data to support the theory, not seat of the pants opinion.

Mike,
I was glad to see you join in the debate over the tire situation. I know your opinions carry a lot of weight within the F-Vee community.


I have been on the Falkens all season and in my experience, they actually seem to have very good grip - probably because of their width. However, having a much harder compound than a typical Vee slick, any significant bumps or disruptions in the track surface requires immediate, very quick correction on the drivers part. When they break loose there is very little warning and you really need to be ready to catch the car.
I feel the Hoosier slick has a more progressive lead-up to it's traction limit and is more predictable in bumpy situations - and at the limit.
From my experience running both tires I actually think the Falken -even though not as fast overall as the Hoosier- is the more challenging tire to drive.
Just my two-cents worth.

Imagine that......... Maybe my seat of the pants opinion might just have some merit.

[Matt Clark]

After watching some races where top guys on slicks that normally run away with things are suddenly right in the middle of the pack, I would say there is something to the radials evening the field out... good or bad. Not to mention one tire may suit someones driving style better than the other.

side note- Brian Harding, do you have a way to contact you offline?

[Steve Davis]

After watching some races where top guys on slicks that normally run away with things are suddenly right in the middle of the pack, I would say there is something to the radials evening the field out...

I would bet that would be because of the much greater DRAFT put off from the larger tires ... especially the front ones. Therefore, the much bigger tires do somewhat PENALIZE the best drivers by making it easier for others to stay close. Any aero advantage in the car is also highly negated.

PS to Matt. If you click on a poster's USERID, it will show you various options. One is "send an email to" - click on that and it will give you the email they signed up with.

[Rob E]

Someone should get a set of the front tires that they use on the Delta Wing. They are 15" and look about FV size width-wise. They may be a bit pricey but who know, they might last longer or go faster or some other thing that makes people happy.

[Hardingfv32]

... by making it easier for others to stay close.

And can we assume that when you pull our of the draft to pass you go no where? Would all passing then be left to the brake zones? Desperation/frustration?

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

And can we assume that when you pull our of the draft to pass you go no where? Would all passing then be left to the brake zones? Desperation/frustration?


Brian

No when you pull out to pass you have lots of extra speed, trust me have done it many times & passing isn't an issue like you are trying to get people to believe.

As a good driver knows he stays fairly close to the other car while passing as it still gives a draft out off to the side which you can use as well.

Please stop speculating on something you have not used.

[Hardingfv32]

Someone should get a set of the front tires that they use on the Delta Wing.

It is said that they in fact use the FV molds to make them. Actually had one contact willing to pay more for them to get the extra performance.

Brian