No they don't. They are bespoke tires from Continenetal.Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
No they don't. They are bespoke tires from Continenetal.
If my memory is correct, wasn't there drafting at Road America during the Runoff's?
So drafting isn't anything new and it's currently going on with our current Hoosier slicks, so what's the issue again??
...as evidenced by the emergence of the Challenge Cup series, inspired by a couple of folks that tried the tires in Canada. And as evidenced by the people voting for the falken on the informal poll a few days ago, that already outnumber the folks who have actually raced on them. I'd say that's a bit of a dent, but you can keep trying to buff it out.
Why are American Racers being ignored???
It's a low cost, long lasting, consistent slick. Why is it not on our radar? What are the negatives?
What are the specs with this tire? How much.....How long do they last and how long are they competitive before grip falls off?
Quick specs on American Racers
I would appreciate it if others would contribute their experiences and impressions of the American Racers. I can only give you my personal experience.
The SFR region had (has?) used ARs as the spec tire for a number of seasons, so there is a lot of experience down there. Also the ICSSCC had them as spec tires a few years ago but eliminated the spec tire because they thought they were losing entries because of this. Now they get practically no one at all.
The dimensions of the tires are very similar to the Hoosiers. They are just slightly narrower than the Hoosiers. They only come in one combound for FV: #132. For exact dimensions, go to Roger Kraus Racing or http://www.americanracertires.com/store.php?cid=7
They sell for just over $400 for a set.
They are much more flexible than the C3000 and need more camber. I can easily mount them with a Harbor Freight hand tire changer, where it is impossible for me to mount the new Hoosiers.
As for the performance, my experience is that they are about 1.5 seconds slower over a 9 corner short road course. I have not experienced a significant 'cliff' in performance dropoff. However, there is some performance degradation. As I said earlier, my 27 heat cycle ARs seemed to be about 1 second slower than when they were new. I must confess that number is a subjective guestimate and I may have to do a more careful analysis to give you a better number. However the fastest Formula Ford guy switched from old ARs to new ARs and did better his time by just about a second.
Hope this helps
I've been trying to promote the AR's for years. Apparently rumor has it that they are not interested in supplying the entire country with tires. I have not called them so I cannot say that is true for sure. Although, at the current participation levels that really isn't that many tires. especially since they last so long. I've been running them for 25+ years.
It is a great tire that is consistent down to the cord. $550 for a set. Easily 20+ heat cycles.
The down side is it has a softer side wall and does require a different driving style/car set up to maximize. They are 1-2 seconds slower then the Hoosier national tire. Also they do tend to leak air overnight but to me neither one of those issues are a significant concern to me.
It would be a awesome choice. If I were king of FV, and the tires were available, it would be my choice.
Scott
"American Racers" owned by Specialty Tires of America (formerly McCreary for the roundy-round crowd)
About $400/set
YMMV, but I would get about 3 weekends (12 HC's) from a set. Some got a lot more, not many were replacing them more often.
Sizes 21.5/5 (21.3" dia mounted) and 22.0/6 (22.2" dia.) Tire weight 9.5 and 11.0# respectively.
For those of us who have raced on them, the only semi-common complaint has to do with air pressure not holding over a longish period of time. In a 30 minute sprint race it isn't an issue at all...set pressures on pre-grid.
I fought a pretty hard and politically charged battle to get that tire approved in VARA's FV1 class. I am a fan of the tire.
If it falls off as quick as a R55 or you still have to have set of rain tires, it doesn't matter as the price is about 1/2 of what the Hoosier's cost.
American Racers
I know this isn't the spot for this but I'll strike while the iron is hot.....I have a set of American Racers available for sale if someone wants to try them. They have 4 short sessions on them. Tried them last year in anticipation of the search for another tire.
They are in Danbury CT.
$300.00 for the set.
Andy P.
AR= $550 in the Northeast
The following includes no seat of the pants:
I'm not a race engineer. I am an engineer, and I've started doing some research in the hopes of developing a car from scratch. In 5 years of engineering school and a further 5 in the field, the chapter of race car vehicle dynamics on tires is about the hardest reading I've ever done. There's a fair amount of "we don't know why, we just know that it does" type of data. There may be some incorrect data here, but I don't think there is.
Comparing a bias ply formula car slick to a 200 TW street car tire is a huge battle. From my reading, almost all of the arguments in this thread are probably correct(ish). They even make sense per the plots that were posted.
Up to a point your grip increases with increased slip angle (angle between the tire's centerline and the vehicle's path of travel). Typically in a race tire, the maximum force is higher, but so is the rate with which you get to that point. This means that getting the slip angle (roughly related to steering) just right is critical. The street tire (the Falken is one at 200tw) will generally have lower grip, but also a lower rate of force increase. This means getting a corner in the ball park of correct will keep you closer to the guy that gets it just right.
Now crossing the peak grip point gets into a different ball game. Due to construction a radial can't flex anywhere near as much as the bias ply tire. When you exceed their limits they tend to go much faster. Keeping one on the edge without losing the tire becomes the challenge, making the bias ply easier to drive on that side of peak grip.
As to the radial being harder to drive on rough tracks, I would expect they would be. The sidewall is substantially stiffer, so imperfections in the track will result in less contact. Also, if you change tires without spring setups, you'll have stiffer setup and the handling changes that come along with that.
Patrick Cleary
www.fvee.com.br
Pirelli P7 or Phantom
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
I forget what the actual size is but the front tires on the Delta Wing are in fact FV tire size. I spent a lot of time checking the car out 2 years ago and one time they had the tires sitting there and I ask the media guy about them and he verified that they are FV size tires.
Ed
From someone who knows:
"The Delta Wing is certainly an exciting project for all of us, but as w/ all our race tires used in open competition professional series they are confidential and will not be for sale to the public."
Matt, that seems to be the case from what little I've seen, and from the recent Pocono results. I certainly agree about tires suiting drivers differently.
In an effort to contribute to the technical discussion, with regard to other comments in this thread, I think the reason the Falken package requires significant driver response over uneven surfaces or bumps is because of their large offset in the wheel. They are certainly a handful when only one tire is on the ground compared to the Hoosier/VW-rim package, and you can still feel it when one tire gets light. The offset allows the tires to apply a torque to the steering wheel, and it cancels out when both tire are on a smooth surface, but doesn't when one tire has traction and the other doesn't. This is something we barely feel in comparison with the VW wheels with their small offset. The higher mass of the big tires moving around exaggerates this, and again you feel that in the steering wheel. On bumps, they react as expected due to their higher weight, and you feel that in the wheel as well. In this respect they are harder to drive than the Hoosiers. On a smooth surface all this is less noticeable, and they slide very predictably with the larger slip angles once the car sets, like Mike had suggested.
In my opinion, they behave classically dynamics-wise - in other words they do exactly what you'd expect with the large offset and lower grip level - and their bahavior follows what I have studied in the literature and books. The technical books and articles are usually not wrong because they are refereed by the technical community before they get published, nor is the theory wrong, it is just difficult to figure out how to interpret it, or when it applies.
Because B McCarthy contacted them and they showed no interest in the spec tire conversation.
They had nothing to do with the FF spec tire RFP.. why would the response be any different for a FV spec tire.
The chances are very good that they would fail to win performance and track side service requirements if competing against Hoosier.
You guys need to need to frame your spec tire thoughts around the administrative restrictions SCCA uses when choosing a spec tire for a class. If you have followed this and the FF thread it is clear that no OEM/street tire manufacture is going to sign a SCCA spec tire contract. There does not seem to be any racing tire manufacture interested in spec tires other than Hoosier. With the loss of the SRF spec tire contract Goodyear is very close to leaving SCCA Club Racing.
Time to get your heads out of the sand.
Brian
I did not say AR was not interested. I said they did not return my emails. We have reconnected and they are in the loop. It's still a fair amount of time to go before we reach the stage of preparing the RFP's. Who knows what companies will participate. Maybe Goodyear will come back
Folks are rushing to conclusions long before all the steps have been taken.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
"It's still a fair amount of time to go before we reach the stage of preparing the RFP's."
My suggestion, make the RFP public.
Time to get your heads out of the sand
Now is the time Brian...here's the solution.
Last edited by Johan W; 10.12.16 at 5:39 PM.
I cannot disagree with this. It is important that those who want to run their Falkens, or want Falken racers to grow the run group, write a letter asking that the Falken tire package be allowed as an alternate tire. Hopefully, allowing the option, will sidestep the bureaucratic process that prevents consideration as a spec tire.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Exactly Greg!
AR is currently providing a FF tire. They along with Goodyear did not respond to the FF RFP. Why in the world are either going to respond the FV RFP when it is a smaller market?Who knows what companies will participate. Maybe Goodyear will come back
Folks are rushing to conclusions long before all the steps have been taken.
Goodyear lost the SRF spec tire contract and did not bid on the FF one.... Goodyear is leaving Club Racing.
Why don't you find out how imperative it is for SCCA to have a contract when specifying a spec tire. There is no selection process required if there must be a contract. Hoosier is the only company happy to sign such a contract. Hoosier is becoming the exclusive tire supplier of Club Racing racing only tires.
Telling us to follow the process/steps through is political babble or a lack of understanding of the facts.
Brian
Brian,
If you bother to read Greg's post, you'll see that he is recommending the Falkens as
a OPTIONAL tire in addition to the current Hoosier tire, not as a sole spec tire. You seem to read what you and pontificate as the sole authority on this subject matter!
Look at it from the CRB's point of view: Why provide an alternate rule for maybe 20 regional competitors? Administratively absolutely no reason as long as the Regional Supp procedure is available to them. Are there any groups using Falkens outside the small group in the NE... no.
Brian
Brian,
So you're assuming that there will be NO growth in addition to the 20 competitors you
mentioned in your post? It's good to see you deal in negativity from your garage rather than trying to provide an alternative that reduces costs for the MAJORITY of the
FV drivers. If we as FV drivers don't differentiate ourselves from FF and other groups in regards to operating costs, then what's the attraction to FV? The original buy in might be lower but that would be the only attraction unless we try to control the costs that we as a group can control. Many of those variables are uncontrollable but tires aren't one of those items!
I think there is room for multiple agendas here that can co-exist. I think a great compromise is for SCCA to welcome the Falkens as an alternate tire while the ETPF game can be played out in the offices of SCCA leadership. Nobody that I know wants SCCA to be the middle man in the Falken tire supply chain. The very worst thing that can happen is that more people fall in love with using the tires and having money to race more often (without leaving SCCA.)
Brian,
If you bother to read Greg's post, you'll see that he is recommending the Falkens as
a OPTIONAL tire in addition to the current Hoosier tire, not as a sole spec tire. You seem to read what you and pontificate as the sole authority on this subject matter!
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Note to Greg: "the Goodyear reference was a joke hence the funny face."
As Brian stated, there is a process in place for folks to go to any tire they want via the regional supplemental regulations. I don't really understand all the alternative tire rule talk unless someone wants the wheel rule changed. Alternative wheels could be addressed by supplemental rules as well. Maybe someone can spell it out for me.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
You guys are still not providing any reason for the CRB to consider a alternate package. What is the administrative requirement? Who is currently being disadvantaged by the Supp process?
Brian
The average racer wants nothing to do with any SCCA process. Having to contact organizers in advance to ask for supps to be changed is just not going to happen. If grids are going to be increased, then obstacles need to be minimized or removed, and not increased. If the number of people that like these tires is so inconsequential, then what are people afraid of. At this point, if it increased FV car counts by 2 cars across the country over the entire season, what would be the harm?
And I did not make any reference to your joke so no need to clarify anything for me. It was Harding that did understand your joke. I actually get more jokes than you think you're making.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
The average racer wants nothing to do with any SCCA process. Having to contact organizers in advance to ask for supps to be changed is just not going to happen. If grids are going to be increased, then obstacles need to be minimized or removed, and not increased. If the number of people that like these tires is so inconsequential, then what are people afraid of. At this point, if it increased FV car counts by 2 cars across the country over the entire season, what would be the harm?
And I did not make any reference to your joke so no need to clarify anything for me. It was Harding that did understand your joke. I actually get more jokes than you think you're making.
It seems it's the same people who want change when it costs the average FV racer more money, but get upset when there's an attempt to save money for the entire class? Some people talk a good game but when it's time for a vote, they almost always revert back to the staus quo!
Perhaps it would actually En-franchise some of the FV racers ..... like the 27 people(or 56+%) who voted in favor in the Apexspeed poll but are certainly realizing that being a slight majority or minority will have no influence on the bureaucratic process that has pre-determined that there is only one acceptable spec tire provider (as you have pointed out).
A compromise is needed that will not disenfranchise your 19 "first class" contacts or the 27 "economy" poll respondents. When you are sitting in the front of the plane, who cares what is happening at the back? You're on a bigger plane making fewer stops! Why are people so threatened by such an inferior product that they consider to be inconsequential to the future of the class.
Surely such a compromise would be preferable to a 3 year battle with a winner by slim margin. The class is still in recovery from your "mannygate" and battling the ongoing ETPF game. My proposal for an alternate tire is actually the anti-ETPF game. No hidden agenda. No backroom deals. No saying this but meaning that. Just a straight-forward request to allow members of the community (the consumer) to choose a low-cost low-performance alternate package in the hope that more people will come out, enjoy themselves, and then come out more often. No need for any SCCA concern about RFPs, tire supply, tire price, trackside service, or taking a cut.
Just humor these poor misguided souls and support a harmless alternate option..
Last edited by problemchild; 09.01.15 at 3:41 PM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
It would be nice to avoid any potential for conflict by making it a legal alternate, but the best way to build critical mass is to just get people to come out and run them.
Given the participation numbers for most regional events, is anyone going to turn away a group of racers who show up to race on Falkens, whether it is in the Supps or not?
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
IM AN OLD HIPPIE!!I think Falkens are "groovy"Man!
Greg made a really important point: "The average racer wants nothing to do with any SCCA process."
How does SCCA make the right decisions without input? We all have to contribute to make racing better. Approaching a regions for a spec tire is not something you do on Thursday night. Do the leg work with your competitors, if you achieve consensus on a tire of choice, go to the region and tell them before the season starts. If it means more entries, there is not a region in the country that won't listen.
The above post is for reference only and your results may vary. This post is not intended to reflect the views and opinions of SCCA and should not be considered an analysis or opinion of the rules written in the GCR. thanks, Brian McCarthy, BOD area 9.
Gimme a frikkin break!
The FF spec tire selection process has shown no regard for the membership. They have created a process that allows only one spec tire provider option. Even Harding believes that. Every SCCA leader has defiantly and un-apologetically, even proudly, maintained that posture.
I don't like it when someone pees on my leg ....... but don't keep draining the pipe, insisting it is raining when there is not a cloud in the sky. Even people that are getting their tire choice can see that the system is failing the membership. The only way to get anything done in SCCA is to ignore the process and create their own local mini-Series. Our SCCA leaders are now telling us to do that. If everyone does that, then what is the point in having a nationwide club and wasting everybody's time, energy, and passion?
Why are people so afraid of the Falken alternate tire option?
Last edited by problemchild; 09.02.15 at 8:07 AM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
People are afraid of change.
I have never been around a more awesome, but stubborn, group of people in my life. I think one of the reasons is because most of the old timers have been hording all of these 50 year old parts for years to gain some kind of advantage, consequently, they do not want to change any of the rules like disc brakes, Ball joint beams, different size wheels, non-spec manifolds, rack and pinion steering, etc.....
Scott
That is the funniest thing you have ever said......
And I did not make any reference to your joke so no need to clarify anything for me. It was Harding that did understand your joke. I actually get more jokes than you think you're making.
Scott
Actually, I think they are afraid that given a marketplace void of SCCA restrictions and bureaucracy, the consumer would be able to vote with their participation on their own tire of choice, and the outcome would be clear. Some people would rather put the class through a civil war to delay the inevitable, than let the consumer determine the outcome with their entries. Allowing the alternate tire avoids all that messiness without disenfranchising anybody. If the Falken tire package is just a localized fringe choice then it is no threat to anybody who wants the SCCA's preferred vendor. Either outcome is good with me.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Membership dollars and sanctioning fees without nearly as much hassle.
To lazy to look more pages this year than last?
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