Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[Hardingfv32]

Call me a lazy self entitled bum, but I think it's worth catering to the majority vs the exceptions.

I do not need to call you anything. I just challenge your perception that it is the small budget FV participants that are in the majority. Possibly if choose a criteria that include even the most casual racer you might find the haves and have-nots about equal. If you weight the criteria using race participation numbers then the haves are clearly in control. I am not sure you are after catering to the majority in that case... are you?

The 'fact is' that there is no known correlation between cost reduction and FV class participation numbers. The class is dying and there is no known fix. SCCA and road racing are dying and there is no know fix. Those of us who have raced for decades just want live out the rest of our racing careers in a manner that is most enjoyable to us.... that means on slicks. We are not interested in unproven efforts to save FV.. SCCA.. or road racing.

Brian

[nbrigido]

Dean / All,

I think the other possibility that needs to be mentioned here is slicks are much more difficult to drive on the edge then a street radial. Slip angles and grip levels make street radials much more forgiving. I would look at this and say it's entirely possible you simply drove better on the slicks then the others. (And I really don't mean any disprespect to anyone here, but a 4 sec difference is not tires.)

I would argue that the Falkens take away some driver skill from the equation...exactly the opposite of what every is claiming of the goal.

Just an observation and hopes of adding some grounding to the cheerleading. It's not as simple as some are saying it is. The hidden costs are huge here...people are just not thinking about them yet.

One thing that I can say, at the Pittsburgh PRO race, we were watching the timing remotely. During the first practice session, a driver who had NEVER run the radial package, was 2 seconds faster than everyone else on the track, even those that have run the package for years.

There was no development, or changes required. He was a good driver

[problemchild]

Is there anybody else left to offend. It is like the legacy days of Monster Mannies.

[nbrigido]

[

I do not need to call you anything. I just challenge your perception that it is the small budget FV participants that are in the majority. Possibly if choose a criteria that include even the most casual racer you might find the haves and have-nots about equal. If you weight the criteria using race participation numbers then the haves are clearly in control. I am not sure you are after catering to the majority in that case... are you?

The 'fact is' that there is no known correlation between cost reduction and FV class participation numbers. The class is dying and there is no known fix. SCCA and road racing are dying and there is no know fix. Those of us who have raced for decades just want live out the rest of our racing careers in a manner that is most enjoyable to us.... that means on slicks. We are not interested in unproven efforts to save FV.. SCCA.. or road racing.

Brian

Brain, if I take the survey that you keep mentioning in many of your posts, using the word Majority. i think the results CLEARLY state there is a correlation between cost reduction and participation numbers in FV. to the Tune of 82%

2. Is the cost of racing a significant deterrent to your racing (or racing more)?
Yes 205 82%
No 44 18%
Total 249 100%

6. Do you think a spec tire for Formula Vee in SCCA would increase participation in FV?
Yes 139 55%
No 112 45%
Total 251 100%

[nbrigido]

I do not need to call you anything. I just challenge your perception that it is the small budget FV participants that are in the majority. Possibly if choose a criteria that include even the most casual racer you might find the haves and have-nots about equal. If you weight the criteria using race participation numbers then the haves are clearly in control. I am not sure you are after catering to the majority in that case... are you?

The 'fact is' that there is no known correlation between cost reduction and FV class participation numbers. The class is dying and there is no known fix. SCCA and road racing are dying and there is no know fix. Those of us who have raced for decades just want live out the rest of our racing careers in a manner that is most enjoyable to us.... that means on slicks. We are not interested in unproven efforts to save FV.. SCCA.. or road racing.

Brian

At least answer the original question asked..I have reposted the comment below you made. Why the sudden change of heart. This was a cost based comparison you made, not performance based.

B McCarthy thinks that there is an opening for a spec FV tire after the the possible success of the spec FF tire. With that in mind I reviewed that Falken tire option. Aside from the choice of wheels, which relates to the 14 vs 15" wheel size discussion, this is a no-brainer.

Say the Falkens are race competitive for 4 races (claimed to to be good for 3 seasons), the Hoosier are possibly race competitive for 2 races.

BALLPARK: Falkens $100 & Hoosier $200... shipped and mounted. Now using the Falkens, you must purchase a $80-90 wheel. So the first purchase of Falken tires is equal to the cost of a set of Hoosiers. The cost benefit after the initial purchase of the Falken package is just overwhelming in favor of the Falken combination.

What am I missing?
Give me a list of contacts and I should have no problem selling the Falken package.

Brian

[problemchild]

I do not need to call you anything. I just challenge your perception that it is the small budget FV participants that are in the majority. Possibly if choose a criteria that include even the most casual racer you might find the haves and have-nots about equal. If you weight the criteria using race participation numbers then the haves are clearly in control. I am not sure you are after catering to the majority in that case... are you?

The 'fact is' that there is no known correlation between cost reduction and FV class participation numbers. The class is dying and there is no known fix. SCCA and road racing are dying and there is no know fix. Those of us who have raced for decades just want live out the rest of our racing careers in a manner that is most enjoyable to us.... that means on slicks. We are not interested in unproven efforts to save FV.. SCCA.. or road racing.

Brian

There were 32 drivers at the Runoffs last year. Only half finished on the lead lap. What makes these 16 more worthy than 16 drivers running in the Challenge Cup or 16 drivers racing in the NorthEast Championship?

[Hardingfv32]

Did a Vortech win the runoffs last year...

You are afraid to answer the question as you know that it will reflect poorly on the quality of the cars participating. How many Vortechs are running on radials anywhere.... I am going to assume zero.

I and many others would view Vortech participation as a measure of competitiveness of a particular series. They might not win every race but they will be the most winning marquee each year. Vortech ownership is a clear indicator of high budget participation. Might a Vortech owner feel it an overkill racing in the Challenge series as an example?

Frankly the level of competition in the Challenge series does nothing to promote the benefit of the Falken package. Just an opinion ...no facts.

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

But do you have very good cars? Just as a rough yard stick... how many Vortechs are running with you?

It would be a BIG in feather your cap to get Rick or Roger to race with you. They are in your area... I shouldn't be very hard to secure their support. there is plenty of time. Keep us posted.

Brian

Did a Vortech win the runoffs last year? Michael has how many track records and National Championships in his non Vortech?

By the way my first SCCA event I beat Charles Hearn in his Vortech, I believe he finished 2nd in the runoffs the previous year and I was a mid pack racer at the time in F1200. Any other BS you carry use that I can denounce for you?

I am not arguing about tires in my posts I am simply correcting your blantently incorrect BS you are coming up with.

You are afraid to answer the question as you know that it will reflect poorly on the quality of the cars participating. How many Vortechs are running on radials anywhere.... I am going to assume zero.

I and many others would view Vortech participation as a measure of competitiveness of a particular series. They might not win every race but they will be the most winning marquee each year. Vortech ownership is a clear indicator of high budget participation. Might a Vortech owner feel it an overkill racing in the Challenge series as an example?

Frankly the level of competition in the Challenge series does nothing to promote the benefit of the Falken package. Just an opinion ...no facts.

Brian

You only decided to take an extremely small part of my post and ignore the rest? Dollars spent do not equal level of competitiveness alone, do I need to elaborate for you by posting facts or while you agree to this?

[problemchild]

But ..... it would be so cool if we could get an elite FV driver, besides Dean of course, to come to NJ and run the Falken tire package.

So ..... here's my FV National Champion enticement offer.
I don't have any caviar but I will offer up a surplus bottle of Steve's champagne.
I will loan them a very good legal intake manifold.
I will provide them with a hotel room for Friday and Saturday night.
I will pay for the tire rental.
I will pay for their first $100 of race fuel

I believe that Saturday's dinner is provided. If they get there and pay the entry fee, they should have no real costs during the event. If there is something else we need to offer, let me know, and I'll try and put it together.

I will just need a pic of their smiling face on Sunday afternoon!

OK. Two bottles of pilfered champagne.

[nbrigido]

You are afraid to answer the question as you know that it will reflect poorly on the quality of the cars participating. How many Vortechs are running on radials anywhere.... I am going to assume zero.

I and many others would view Vortech participation as a measure of competitiveness of a particular series. They might not win every race but they will be the most winning marquee each year. Vortech ownership is a clear indicator of high budget participation. Might a Vortech owner feel it an overkill racing in the Challenge series as an example?

Frankly the level of competition in the Challenge series does nothing to promote the benefit of the Falken package. Just an opinion ...no facts.

Brian

Based on what I see from last years Marquee event, The run-offs.. I need a Protoform.

This whole "vortech on radial or in a series" to make a point is going no where.

If there is ever going to be a proper outcome to this we need to work with facts and figures

[derminator]

I am going to chime in here now because Brian I really don't know who you think you. But you have no place to address the level on talent racing in the series when you: a) you have not raced against any of the gentleman b) Have never attended a race. Comments like that should be left in your feeble little brain.

[Hardingfv32]

At least answer the original question asked.

I have no idea what you are asking.... But i will happily to agree that the Falken Package is and will always be the most cost effective option. Now if I implied anything other than that recently... then I am happy to stand corrected. I am not here to just make pointless arguments. Nothing intellectually entertaining in that.

Brian

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Sounds to me like you've never had the privilege of driving on junk slicks. I think the other fallacy in the logic is assuming that all drivers in the slick race were on the same compound and relative age of the tire.

At the first majors event this season I used tires from 2013 and was only a few tenths off my track record from the previous year. Our current tires run out of rubber and have cords on them well before they have a major drop off in performance. I discard tires from lack of rubber rather then lack of performance.

Huge is relative. I'm willing to bet that most people will not spend anywhere near the amount on development of the new wheel/tire package as they are accustomed to spending on tires. I would also argue that many will utilize the savings they would enjoy from tires on additional seat time. Seat time that will give them more enjoyment of the sport and reduce their lap times/improve their race craft more than spending lots of money trying to find the next tenth.

I was simply trying to point out that nothing is ever as easy as it seems. Don't get me wrong here - I would love a slick tire, even if it's a "spec" tire, that lasts 30 cycles because honestly, I'm tired of flipping tires. I do it on an old manual machine in a barn and that's one part of going racing I hate. But if the wrong tire choice is made, it could be devistating to our class. Proceed with caution and let's not jump to conclusions on the proper package.

[Steve Bamford]

I am going to chime in here now because Brian I really don't know who you think you are. But you no place to address the level on talent racing in the series when you: a) you have not raced against any of the gentleman b) Have never attended a race. Comments like that should be left in your feeble little brain.

Come on Derm, Brian has a reason to be upset with the Challenge Cup Series and wants to destroy it as quickly as he can. I would too if my business selling over priced manifolds was in jeopardy. I would be attacking any organization that did not allow me to continue my gravy train such as F1200 and Challenge Cup.

Oh I'm sorry, did I point another obvious fact Brian?

[nbrigido]

I have no idea what you are asking.... But i will happily to agree that the Falken Package is and will always be the most cost effective option. Now if I implied anything other than that recently... then I am happy to stand corrected. I am not here to just make pointless arguments. Nothing intellectually entertaining in that.

Brian

Brian, you are bouncing all over the place, to the point you are coming out an questioning the ability of Drivers and Cars.. How can you have no idea what we are saking if has been asked a couple of times and the original information posted.

You post below it was not implied, it was actually calculated and written. You even said "Give me a list of contacts and I should have no problem selling the Falken package.". I am not making this up. How do you go from this being the best thing thats happened to being what no-one wants and is horrible.


B McCarthy thinks that there is an opening for a spec FV tire after the the possible success of the spec FF tire. With that in mind I reviewed that Falken tire option. Aside from the choice of wheels, which relates to the 14 vs 15" wheel size discussion, this is a no-brainer.

Say the Falkens are race competitive for 4 races (claimed to to be good for 3 seasons), the Hoosier are possibly race competitive for 2 races.

BALLPARK: Falkens $100 & Hoosier $200... shipped and mounted. Now using the Falkens, you must purchase a $80-90 wheel. So the first purchase of Falken tires is equal to the cost of a set of Hoosiers. The cost benefit after the initial purchase of the Falken package is just overwhelming in favor of the Falken combination.

What am I missing?
Give me a list of contacts and I should have no problem selling the Falken package.

Brian

[Speed Sport Engineering]

What challenge or Canadian races are left this year?

[nbrigido]

I was simply trying to point out that nothing is ever as easy as it seems. Don't get me wrong here - I would love a slick tire, even if it's a "spec" tire, that lasts 30 cycles because honestly, I'm tired of flipping tires. I do it on an old manual machine in a barn and that's one part of going racing I hate. But if the wrong tire choice is made, it could be devistating to our class. Proceed with caution and let's not jump to conclusions on the proper package.

I agree, the proper package or package(s) need to be presented. But what seems to be happening is fear being driven into what works or does not work, what will or will not help the series.

At the end of the Day, we need to think what is best for the Series. If it means Slick / Radial combo, so be it. but lets work with real data and not question the ability of people making statements as the deciding factor.

Honestly tire companies are in it for the money, it is a business not a charity, the more we buy the more they make. They are happy.

We need to make the membership happy and work at bring these series back to a growth level. Tires alone will not do that, but it has been proven that it does help.

[Hardingfv32]

I am going to chime in here now because Brian I really don't know who you think you. But you have no place to address the level on talent racing in the series when you: a) you have not raced against any of the gentleman b) Have never attended a race. Comments like that should be left in your feeble little brain.

One should absolutely never challenge the talent of the drivers of a given series....I fully agree but I believe that I clearly stated the competitive (budget?) level of the 'cars' involved.

Yes I am basing this on the observations of someone's opinion who I respect and who is qualified to make such a judgment. I can not speak for them. I am challenging the level of ...car... competitiveness because there seems to be a lack of transparency around the subject today on this forum.

Brian

[nbrigido]

What challenge or Canadian races are left this year?

NJ for the Challeneg Cup

Calabogie and Mosport for the F1200

[Steve Bamford]

One should absolutely never challenge the talent of the drivers of a given series....I fully agree but I believe that I clearly stated the competitive (budget?) level of the 'cars' involved.

Yes I am basing this on the observations of someone's opinion who I respect and who is qualified to make such a judgment. I can not speak for them. I am challenging the level of ...car... competitiveness because there seems to be a lack of transparency around the subject today on this forum.

Brian

So let's look at this another way then Brian. These are the biggest FV fields in North America with not one of them on here saying that anything you are saying is right yet your still listening to one other persons opinion who likely isn't racing in the Challenge Cup Series either?

[Daryl DeArman]

At the first majors event this season I used tires from 2013 and was only a few tenths off my track record from the previous year. Our current tires run out of rubber and have cords on them well before they have a major drop off in performance. I discard tires from lack of rubber rather then lack of performance.

Making my point. You apparently haven't run on junk slicks....just old, properly cared for tires.

I used to run on YEC compound Bridgestones. They could also be run to the cords before any major drop off in performance....granted running them to the cords happened in about 40 laps and two heat cycles. Not too different than tires used in many professional series today. I don't think we want to go down that path, but at least you wouldn't have to flip good tires on rims between events.

[Steve Bamford]

Brian this in relation to your quote on the bottom about pack racing how it is created by the radial tire which is untrue please see below.

The quote directly below this was by Steven Davis this past March commenting on his new lap record at Road Atlanta. Road Atlanta is the most similar track I can think of as Moaport is where F1200 runs the majority of their races btw.

Thanks guys. I'm pretty sure this means that I have held (at least for SOME time ) the lap record in FV for ALL configurations of Road Atlanta since it's inception. I even held the current configuration for a few laps a few years ago. That's 3 different configurations including the ONE TIME use of the T8 chicane at the '92 Runoffs. It took me a number of years to finally grab this configuration and keep it through the end of the weekend at least . It was also very nice to have such a competitive FV field this weekend, even though it meant I didn't win either race. I spent several laps in 7th of 8 cars in the lead pack. The move through that pack to the front is what produced the record.

This next quote was from July 2014's Pro FV race at Mid Ohio. Both of these events were done using slick tires.

Very entertaining race. 12 official lead changes amongst 3 drivers. The lead pack was 5 deep swapping positions every lap. The racing was just as great throughout the field.

Here is your quote about pack racing if I read it correctly. If this does not address your post correctly and you still feel you are correct then please explain further and I am sure I can find more info to once again correct your attempt to misguide others.

The wheels (slicks) account for about 65% of the FV's aero drag. This is drag not frontal area. The rears are counted because the flow closes in behind the front tires and has to punch through by the rears again. You can expect the radial to up that number to about 75%.

I know for a fact that is is very easy for a Canadian FVs to be able to catch and hold onto the draft.... but not be able to pull out of the pack and move forward. This leads to some frustrating pack racing. Does anyone from Canada have any accident stories to tell about some of the 'Big Ones'?

So while everyone is in the same boat with the drag caused by the bigger wheels... something has also change about how the car interact on the track.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Tires alone will not do that, but it has been proven that it does help.

You or anyone else have NOT proven that.... You have only endlessly stated that.

Well I have done two mailings or contact efforts. During the first effort I clearing laid out the facts as we have agreed to about the Falken package. I am sorry to say that only 5% accepted the Falken package. There was no way to sell the radials.

Before the second mailing I had talks with Hoosier about what was possible. With that new information I made a push for a slick form of Spec tire. I am want to promote something that the majority is going to get behind. A clear choice that the majority supports will insure that SCCA acts promptly on the issue of a FV Spec tire. As i said... I can design a car around any tire. The choice does not matter to me the designer... but it does to my driver and many others. I just want the decision to happen as fast as possible.

Brian

Brian

[Mason66]

I recalled this photo on Facebook a few months back. I just couldn't resist as this is exactly what is wrong with FV. This is what we can not afford as a group. There has to be an advantage to having this amount of tires at your disposal either testing or for a weekend. I understand it's your prerogative how to spend your hard earned money the way you'd like.

I'd be homeless!

[ATTACH]55326

[Tiago Santos]

As evidenced by seemingly every other Runoffs race - the only reason the F1200 guys have more "big ones", is they always have enough cars to have a big one.

If you really want to split hairs and dish out useless conjecture - having bigger, tighter packs would teach folks how to drive in packs. The current state of things means drivers spend a year or two driving around by themselves in a field of 3 or 4 vees, all with incredibly different lap times, to then find themselves suddenly surrounded by 25 other cars at the Runoffs, with usually pretty bad results. Is this meaningless enough to be intellectually entertaining?

The 'fact is' that there is no known correlation between cost reduction and FV class participation numbers.

I understand what you're trying to say. But thankfully "logic" is a pretty broad field and also includes things like deductive reasoning. There isn't a single reason for the downturn in racing entries, there are many - it's not hard to deduce what they are and I'm sure despite your little act on the forum, you know very well what most of those reasons are.

Those of us who have raced for decades just want live out the rest of our racing careers in a manner that is most enjoyable to us.... that means on slicks. We are not interested in unproven efforts to save FV.. SCCA.. or road racing.

Funny - from what I understand of your racing career, I'm not sure what the SCCA, FV or road racing in general have to do with it. You're welcome to keep tinkering with your car in the garage in accordance with whatever rule book you appreciate the most.

[nbrigido]

You or anyone else have NOT proven that.... You have only endlessly stated that.

Well I have done two mailings or contact efforts. During the first effort I clearing laid out the facts as we have agreed to about the Falken package. I am sorry to say that only 5% accepted the Falken package. There was no way to sell the radials.

Before the second mailing I had talks with Hoosier about what was possible. With that new information I made a push for a slick form of Spec tire. I am want to promote something that the majority is going to get behind. A clear choice that the majority supports will insure that SCCA acts promptly on the issue of a FV Spec tire. As i said... I can design a car around any tire. The choice does not matter to me the designer... but it does to my driver and many others. I just want the decision to happen as fast as possible.

Brian

Brian

Sorry Brian, but i am only getting information form your poll you keep refering to. the question was asked and 55% is a Majority

Do you think a spec tire for Formula Vee in SCCA would increase participation in FV?
Yes 139 55%
No 112 45%
Total 251 100%

[Hardingfv32]

....saying is right yet your still listening to one other persons opinion who likely isn't racing in the Challenge Cup Series either?

I am questioning the competitiveness of the cars as a limiting factor in the evaluation of the performance for the Falken package. Do you really expect the rest of the US to accept the opinion of competitors in vintage to regional level cars when evaluating a tire package?

Are we or are we not talking apples and oranges when it comes to the level of competitiveness of the ... cars ... involve in this discussion?

Brian

[nbrigido]

What challenge or Canadian races are left this year?

Michael, on Behalf of the Challenge Cup Series or the F1200 series, if you wish to attend any of the races to try the package, I will ensure there is a Set of Tires and a Manifold for you to use. no cost to you.

[Steve Bamford]

I am questioning the competitiveness of the cars as a limiting factor in the evaluation of the performance for the Falken package. Do you really expect the rest of the US to accept the opinion of competitors in vintage to regional level cars when evaluating a tire package?

Are we or are we not talking apples and oranges when it comes to the level of competitiveness of the ... cars ... involve in this discussion?

Brian

Sure we can go down that route, did you miss my post about how my vintage uncompetitive car beat the 2nd place finisher in the Runoffs just a few months later driving his highly competitive Vortech car as you profess is what we should be comparing to?

Am I talking apples to apples now for you? Please Continue to argue your point as it is enjoyable for me to prove you wrong over and over so easily.

[Tiago Santos]

I am questioning the competitiveness of the cars as a limiting factor in the evaluation of the performance for the Falken package. Do you really expect the rest of the US to accept the opinion of competitors in vintage to regional level cars when evaluating a tire package?

Are we or are we not talking apples and oranges when it comes to the level of competitiveness of the ... cars ... involve in this discussion?

Good inflammatory touch with the variety of quotes around the word cars.

You're trying to imply something that is false. Yes, the top 5 or 10 or heck, 20 Vees in the country haven't raced on Falkens. There's a good chance the top 20 drivers haven't eaten beets this week - that's just about as relevant.

The top cars are also hardly ever racing each other outside of the runoffs. The very fact that they're top cars, means the rest of the packs aren't top cars. Again - none of this is relevant.

By it's very definition, the only way the majority of racers are your beloved "elitists" (still making me chuckle) are when we reach an average of 2 entries or less per event. I know that won't affect you or your "driver", you'd be pretty happy running time trials or test days, but I really hope even other "elitists" would be pretty bummed with those kinds of fields. In some places, it's already happening.

[nbrigido]

I am questioning the competitiveness of the cars as a limiting factor in the evaluation of the performance for the Falken package. Do you really expect the rest of the US to accept the opinion of competitors in vintage to regional level cars when evaluating a tire package?

Are we or are we not talking apples and oranges when it comes to the level of competitiveness of the ... cars ... involve in this discussion?

Brian

On what basis can YOU question the competitiveness of ANY of the cars in these series. Is it because they were not prepped by you? or is this information coming form a 3rd party? do you know each car personally?

I maybe do not understand the level you are comparing to?

[Hardingfv32]

Sorry Brian, but i am only getting information form your poll you keep refering to. the question was asked and 55% is a Majority

I have never done a poll. My mailings are a get out the vote effort. The poll I have referred to was from the FV Committee and the results were posted today in this thread.

I have absolutely NO DOUBT that everyone thinks that cheaper tires or whatever creates more participation.

FACT: that has and will never be proven scientifically. You and other are free to base their decisions on non scientific facts. Is that not the essence of politics?

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

Do you really expect the rest of the US to accept the opinion of competitors in vintage to regional level cars when evaluating a tire package?

followed shortly by:

You and others are fee to base their decisions on non-scientific facts. Is that not the essence of politics?

Don't correlate the age of a car or the venue with which someone wishes to race with their ability to evaluate the merits of a package. Talk about confusing facts and opinion.

[nbrigido]

So if we all get back to the real point of this thread.. Which was a spec tire..

I think we can all agree that everyone is in a agreement a spec tire or tires is required.

From Post here, and other threads on this form, as well at the survey results that are constantly refereed to and have been posted. Cost is a Major factor.

So it has been put out there that Hoosier will look at making a tire that will last twice? as long as the current tire? and be very close the performance of current Slicks

It has also been put out there that a Radial is the most cost effective solution, and drivers are supporting them.

So let's look at this in the best intrest of FV/F1200 or whatever we are calling it.

Have 2 SPEC tires (the base idea actual came from Greg, sorry just putting it out again).

The SLICK will provide thos drivers that want the ultimate performance that can be obtained, Not worried about cost, want the development that goes with it.

Have the RADIAL as a second option that is Legal for all events, allows driver the option to run a low cost solution?

This formula will allow the current Pro-Slick to be happy, as well as address the concerns of the budget drivers with the Radials

Again, tires being the biggest controllable cost factor we have, will HELP bring drivers back to the track, get drivers to do more races, which in-turn hopefully will open up more FV only races, which in turn will even bring more drivers back to the track.

[nbrigido]

I have never done a poll. My mailings are a get out the vote effort. The poll I have referred to was from the FV Committee and the results were posted today in this thread.

I have absolutely NO DOUBT that everyone thinks that cheaper tires or whatever creates more participation.

FACT: that has and will never be proven scientifically. You and other are free to base their decisions on non scientific facts. Is that not the essence of politics?

Brian

Brain, the Challenge Cup series has proven your theory wrong. that is the essence of reality.

I also never said you did a poll, just the poll you keep referring too that was posted.

On one hand you can't use parts of the poll to say the Majority say this, then on the Other hand say the results are not proven.

the TRUE fact is you nor I nor anyone else here has the ear of the Majority on information to base it on. So why all the Fear

[Hardingfv32]

I maybe do not understand the level you are comparing to?

You are the trying to promoted the Falken package. A absolutely viable package form your's and your series participant's perspective. But why should I or any other FV competitor have any faith in your opinion on this subject. You have a Regional series that no one has ever heard of with participants that no one is familiar with. I have been in FV for almost three decades and I have no idea who you are on any of the other pro-Falken posters on this forum. Now this has everything to do with the Regional nature of you and your series. This is not a put down... just mine and many others perceptions of the issue.

Once the discussion leaves the NE you and your group's opinion holds no water. This is a lack of credibility that must be over come before the Falken package can be sold.

Brian

[Steve Bamford]

You are the trying to promoted the Falken package. A absolutely viable package form your's and your series participant's perspective. But why should I or any other FV competitor have any faith in your opinion on this subject. You have a Regional series that no one has ever heard of with participants that no one is familiar with. I have been in FV for almost three decades and I have no idea who you are on any of the other pro-Falken posters on this forum. Now this has everything to do with the Regional nature of you and your series. This is not a put down... just mine and many others perceptions of the issue.

Once the discussion leaves the NE you and your group's opinion holds no water. This is a lack of credibility that must be over come before the Falken package can be sold.

Brian

Really????

Ask Mike V if he knows anyone posting here. You do reconize Mike V as decent racer I hope.

You keep posting but can't back up anything you say. Why not answer any previous posts?

[Hardingfv32]

Don't correlate the age of a car or the venue with which someone wishes to race with their ability to evaluate the merits of a package.

And why not..... You are asking us to value the opinion of a competitor that we have never heard of.... a series that we not familiar with... and in cars that we do not know anything about relative to level of preparation.

Brian

[nbrigido]

Really????

Ask Mike V if he knows anyone posting here. You do reconcile Mike V as decent racer I hope

Good One, I was thinking

Ed Womer, I think he built a car or 2
Greg Rice, he has a bit of FV experience, nationally
Ray Carmody a couple of Cars and races to his name?

[Hardingfv32]

Really????

I have no idea who you are as a competitor and neither do most of my FV contacts. I have a very narrow focus on FV... again as do most my FV contacts.

Mike knowing you does not help me or my contacts.

So you your opinion is meaningless. Absolutely nothing personal....

Brian