Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[vdrcr]

I am having a heck of a time keeping rubber on my car of late. It seems the main problem is that tires are just so darn expensive! As a result I have been using takeoffs from my fellow competitors. It seems even that adds up as used tires don't last very long and mounting/balancing and disposing seems to be over $100 in and of itself. I guess my point here is two fold:
1) Is anyone going to Thompson this weekend that has tires any better than the takeoffs from 2010 that I found in my basement?
2)What are the odds of going to a new wheel/tire combination any time soon? I'm told the Falken tire/rim package, mounted, is only $680! At $800+ to mount new rubber on my old rims currently, going a different route with slower tires that would last much longer is very appealing to me. I know this subject has been broached before, I'm just curious if any progress has been made.
Sadly my love of racing seems to be getting more and more difficult to afford... Even though I feel I have found a pretty reasonable racing package (FV) and I only run tracks that are very close to me(Thompson, and maybe Palmer, if I can financially manage it).
Recently I have actually (perish the thought!) thought of taking a break from racing, just because of the financial hardship involved.
Anyway, I could ramble some more, but I suspect I'm not the only one that feels this way...

Mike

[derminator]

Mike
I am sure you have seen the posts relating to the Challenge Cup Series. This is one of the main reasons we created the series to control costs. Some people think this is a new idea, but in fact the Canadians have been running this package for some 20 years with great success. So that is why the group behind the Challenge Cup decided to partner with the F1200 series to create the Challenge Cup.
The people behind this series have many many years in Vees and saw the problems we were running into. There are those that dismiss the idea of the tire combination, but heck its work in F1200 for twenty years. I invite you to come to one of the races we have loaner sets for $50 a weekend and if you like the tires and wheels we will deduct that from the purchase of a new set. You can go to Challengecupseries.com for more information. or you can pm me or call me at 678-646-1251 I would be more then happy to speak with you.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Mike,

What kind of tires are you running?

I know from personal experience that the American Racers will go 20+ heat cycles and new they cost about $550.00-600.00 per set. I'm sure there are other options also.

[mikehinkle]

Mike,

I agree with you that the cost of tires is crazy and without a doubt is the most expensive part of owning my vee so far! ( I'm new )
One thing that was pointed out to me about the falken tire package is that it appears cheap but can in fact be just as expensive if you want to run at the front because you will have to buy new sets as often as Hoosiers and have them shaved to be as fast as they can be. I have no personal experience with this but it sounds correct to me.
Either way I don't care I would rather run them and let the front runners buy tires and let the guys like you and me run the same set for 3+ years.
The entry cost to race is high enough!
Some people have the money to spend... I don't. Some might say I shouldn't be racing.

[Supersmile]

Mike,

I have a set of Hoosiers that came with my current Vee you can have. No idea as to their age or heat cycles but they are marked with one hash mark and still feel soft to my fingernail durometer. They are already in back of my truck and I will be at Thompson this weekend.

-Rob

[problemchild]

One thing that was pointed out to me about the falken tire package is that it appears cheap but can in fact be just as expensive if you want to run at the front because you will have to buy new sets as often as Hoosiers and have them shaved to be as fast as they can be. I have no personal experience with this but it sounds correct to me.

If you read the hundreds of posts about these tires on our 1000 lb race cars, you will find nothing to support this fallacy. The only thing that shaving accomplishes, is that it reduces the number of years that the tires will last.

At this time, because the tires are not being recognized locally, you will have to spend some of your savings in travel costs to tracks which recognize them.

[Rolling Stone]

Just out of curiosity does anyone know/have a calculated idea of what the lap time would be between a top front running Vee/F1200 driver with one driver on slicks the other on Falkens at say MOSPORT?

[Amon]

If I remember correctly, we had half the vee's on radials and the remainder on slicks at last years Pocono race and the radials were 2-3 seconds per lap slower than the slicks. If everyone is on the radials it really doesn't matter since there's no advantage...

[FVRacer21]

Mike,

I would take Rob up on his offer or:

I should be able to lend out my American racers out - and I might be running a set of Hoosiers from 2009 to save my good rubber.

Several points.

For $80.00 you should be able to buy the equipment to mount tires EXCEPT the current Hoosiers.

Most people seem to be burning up their fronts lately - either you car work on car setup or run 4 fronts like Nick does.

Also you do have to break the tires in right for them to last.

Not only are the AR tires cheaper, they are very easy to mount and flip ( almost do not need a tire machine....)

I will call around and see what else is out there.

ChrisZ

[nbrigido]

Isn't this a off-season topic?

[tpapem]

Mike,
Not sure where you are in CT but I am in NY about 40 mins west from LRP. I have a set of Hoosiers with 6 heat cycles in them you are welcome to. They are mounted on some bent rims.

Tom

[Tiago Santos]

Recently I have actually (perish the thought!) thought of taking a break from racing, just because of the financial hardship involved.

Well.. I did the same thing a couple years ago, thinking a year off would save me enough money to get back into it properly. A couple years later, I have no idea if I'll ever race my car again. My old tires are now pretty much too old to run, and a new set of hoosiers up here in Canada (no Falkens in BC..) is now $1000+. I don't have time or money to race more than a weekend or two and I'm not about to spend $1000 on a set of tires. American Racers aren't really an option, they're far from competitive. I could run them, I could run the Falkens too, but if I'm just motoring around without a chance of actually competing, I'd be better off running a track day.

The longer I wait, the harder it is to come back into it - next year I'll need new belts, maybe a new helmet?

I'd sell my car, if I thought I had any chance of finding a buyer for a decent price.

Anyway, all this to say - if you want to race, it's much easier to keep going, taking time off is more likely to become permament

[FVRacer21]

"but if I'm just motoring around without a chance of actually competing, I'd be better off running a track day. "

Your statement is a little off - you mean "without a chance of winning...." In FV's heyday, with 40 cars on the track, realistically there was only 10 cars that had a chance of winning, but everyone was out there competing.

You can buy good used tires, helmets, belts are now good for 5 years (and you can have them rewebbed for less than a new set) you can camp out to save hotel costs, about the only thing you cannot control is the entry fee. (and if you can round up some sponsorship, you might be able to mitigate that.

I bet you will beat some people using the Falkens, which might convince others to run them.

The great thing about vee is you can put the car away for 3 years, and in most cases return to racing without a lot of cost.

So if you can only spend $2,000. on racing per year, that means you have $6,000 to spend every 3 years.

FV is still the cheapest way to go racing, but winning cost extra.

ChrisZ

[veeracer98]

Talked to my Hoosier guy today. Seems like there is a new radial Formula Ford tire R60 compound. Wearing like iron but 1 sec slower than the typical Ford tire. Can we hope this might be the future for F vee too?

[nbrigido]

If everyone is on the same tire, then that 1 second means nothing..as everyone will still be equal, but have some spare money to make more races.

Radial, slick what ever everyone decides, if everyone adopts the same tire package and everyone save money which hopefully translates into more attendance at races..better for everyone.

Sure no one can garuntee that a spec tire will translate to more people racing, or cars come out of moth balls. But sure as hell does not hurt.

[nbrigido]

Mike,

I agree with you that the cost of tires is crazy and without a doubt is the most expensive part of owning my vee so far! ( I'm new )
One thing that was pointed out to me about the falken tire package is that it appears cheap but can in fact be just as expensive if you want to run at the front because you will have to buy new sets as often as Hoosiers and have them shaved to be as fast as they can be. I have no personal experience with this but it sounds correct to me.
Either way I don't care I would rather run them and let the front runners buy tires and let the guys like you and me run the same set for 3+ years.
The entry cost to race is high enough!
Some people have the money to spend... I don't. Some might say I shouldn't be racing.

Racing for 5 years on Falken and have never seen anyone shave them? Also defeats the purpose of using the same set as a rain tire...

[BLS]

I think the Falken shaving comes from other classes, heavy tin tops. As Greg stated above, none of that applies when used on light weight formula cars. The Canadians have plenty of experience with these tires.

[GLapinsky]

I have recently completed a Vee for vintage racing (Crusader) and have been following the tire situation. I have an idea for an alternative that I will propose to the vintage group competition committee when I am ready to get started.

Toyo Proxes R888

195/50R15 82V Min 5.5 in rim width. 22.6 diameter 135.00
205/50ZR15 86W Min 5.5 in rim width 23.0 diameter 154.00

Chrome wheels 5.5 width are available online for 65.00

[nbrigido]

I have recently completed a Vee for vintage racing (Crusader) and have been following the tire situation. I have an idea for an alternative that I will propose to the vintage group competition committee when I am ready to get started.

Toyo Proxes R888

195/50R15 82V Min 5.5 in rim width. 22.6 diameter 135.00
205/50ZR15 86W Min 5.5 in rim width 23.0 diameter 154.00

Chrome wheels 5.5 width are available online for 65.00

The Canadian F1600 (FF) can provide insight on these tires. They have been a spec tire for them for some years now. Would not be able to comment on performance or longevity on a vee.

[BLS]

Is it the off season yet? For me it seems so...

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64836

[Tiago Santos]

"but if I'm just motoring around without a chance of actually competing, I'd be better off running a track day. "

Your statement is a little off - you mean "without a chance of winning...." In FV's heyday, with 40 cars on the track, realistically there was only 10 cars that had a chance of winning, but everyone was out there competing.

I meant what I said. In our local group, it's likely I would beat one or two cars even with Falkens. If I'm not anywhere near the folks I want to be racing, though (folks that I believe both my car and I should be competitive with), I'm not competing. I'm either holding folks up in the corners with good tires but less HP than me, or I'm held up behind guys who can't drive (or have "good" used slicks! hehe) but have similar motors. That's my own personal feeling and I don't think any less of folks who are happy doing that!

You can buy good used tires, helmets, belts are now good for 5 years (and you can have them rewebbed for less than a new set) you can camp out to save hotel costs, about the only thing you cannot control is the entry fee.

I've bought used tires plenty of times, they were never "good".. My belts were always good for 5 years (FIA), but they're done. I live near the local track and drive home for the night, when I race farther away, I sleep in the back of the truck. Entry fees are cheap(er) up here. I get what you're trying to say, but it doesn't change the fact that for ME, tires are BY FAR the biggest expense to return to the track. And yet with every passing year, there are more things I'd need to spend money on.

There's nothing wrong with being in the middle of the pack or even dead last.. But for me, it wasn't as much fun as fighting for the podium.

So if you can only spend $2,000. on racing per year, that means you have $6,000 to spend every 3 years.

That was my thought originally, but the reality is I found other ways to spend my time and money. Despite what it may look like, I'm not complaining, I've been having a great time doing other stuff! I was just warning others of my experience that the longer I'm away, the harder it seems to get back in. It was easy enough to spend $2000 (or quite a bit more) a season, split between 4 or 5 weekends. But even if I hadn't spent that money, it's a very different thing to plonk a couple grand down all at once to get back on track. At least it is for me! I guess that's the whole idea behind credit cards..

[vdrcr]

So my weekend was a very mixed bag. The tires I found had my head spinning... Actually my whole car was spinning, my head was just along for the ride... I took those off after the second session/spin which resulted a collision and many hours of repair work to get my car road worthy again. Thanks to the rear tires that Rob gave me, and the wide fronts that Steve P gave me a couple of years ago and a couple of attempts at an alignment, which were made very difficult due to a tweaked axle shaft. At least I was able to complete both sessions on Saturday. Thank you again Chris Z and Jeff A in particular!

Mike

[jeffa711]

that's what we do in the Northeast!! I had a great time running with you Saturday and I look forward to many more!!

[Supersmile]

You are welcome on the tires. As to the spinning...

https://youtu.be/SwvwrUiVFcQ


Anyone in my area have an extra straight wheel they would like to sell? I may also need an axle, backing plate and drum, will check once the car comes back from having the frame fixed.

[Tiago Santos]

You are welcome on the tires. As to the spinning...

https://youtu.be/SwvwrUiVFcQ


Anyone in my area have an extra straight wheel they would like to sell? I may also need an axle, backing plate and drum, will check once the car comes back from having the frame fixed.

Ouch :\

[G.B.]

Just out of curiosity does anyone know/have a calculated idea of what the lap time would be between a top front running Vee/F1200 driver with one driver on slicks the other on Falkens at say MOSPORT?

Mosport:
Falkens: 1:43
Slicks: 1:38
About 5% difference.

[budawe]

Sorry for your contact. Validates the rule: "both feet down. " The other car would have not rolled back if the driver had been on the brakes.

Let me know if you can't find any parts. I have what you need but it's on the west coast.

[Supersmile]

Thanks, Brian. I have the parts on the way and the frame has been repaired (the leading arm survived but tore off the back of the frame). Hopefully it all comes together in time for NHMS in 12 days.

I've ripped corners off FC cars that cost less to fix. Of course, I've also ripped corners off FC cars that cost more to fix than I paid for the Vee!

[grapefarmeral]

A few years ago (yes this tire crap has been happening for a while) I bought a set of Falkens and went to Canada. I get miffed at those that talk endlessly about how radials won't work and they're not proper tires for a Vee and yet have never raced or even driven on a set. I went to Mosport, a track I'd never run on, tires I'd never raced on and had a ball. First race without any changes to my car I finished third. The weekend from that point went down hill as I was hit twice and really screwed up the car. I've been back since and the fun hasn't subsided. In my opinion it's the way to go..

Some facts:
The first weekend I was there I took durometer readings on my new tires, a year old set, a two year old set and a three year old set. Durometer readings were about the same. The tires seem to get better the more you use them.

About 2 years ago there was a thread about tires and manifolds and one prominent Vee driver stated that if you amortize a $1200-1300 manifold over 10 years the cost was minimal. So I decided to figure the difference between US slicks and the Falkens using that same 10 year time. There was also talk claiming that National drivers bought new tires every other weekend...go watch a Majors and see how many stickers there are every weekend.. But using the every other weekend for buying slicks and a three year span for radials, as proven by the Canadians, I made the comparison. The best way was to use the Canadian season, as it's finite. Six weekends , Basically one qualifying session and three races. Which means that there are four session per weekend x 6 weekends = 24 on track sessions. Since at that time a Nationals weekend was usually two practice sessions and one race. So 3 sessions divided into 24 = 8 weekends. so that means in ten years you will race 80 weekends and buy 40 sets of tires. I had just bought a set of slicks around that time and they were $860.. $860 x 40 = $34400. I had also purchased the Falken around the same time to go to Canada; tire cost $350.US delivered to my door. I purposely left out mounting and balancing, but that would tilt the figures even more towards radials. You would buy 4.33 sets of radials in that 10 year time period for a cost of $1515.... That's only a savings of $33,000 in that ten year period... Oh and the added bonus of copying the Canadians is that in that period of time you get an additional 100 races...

So does the Challenge series make sense..? Do I need to answer that..?


P.S. Don't show these figures to your wife or girlfriend

[grapefarmeral]

Zatz, Nice to see you've come back home....

[Supersmile]

Yeah, well with a blown "one race old" motor in the first five minutes on the track, and then a crash in the first race after fixing said motor, I'm wondering if I was adopted and went back to the wrong house...

[Hardingfv32]

What is the model and size of the Falken tire being used?

Do they require wider rims?

Brian

[BLS]

yes, wider rims.

Brian, take a look at this thread. post # 37 in particular:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64836

[nbrigido]

195 / 60 R14, on Diamond Racing 14" Wheels

Falken AZENIS RT-615"K"

[Hardingfv32]

Exactly which Diamond wheel and approximate cost per wheel?

Brian

[fvhopeful]

Brian

Go to the Challenge Cup website
Contact Dermot Ennis about wheels he has ordered a skid of rims
for club members ,he has all pertinent information on the rims.
Contact Dean Curtis with regards to Falken tires he has been the club's tire guy

Hope that helps

Cheers
Desmond
Hitch Guide

[Hardingfv32]

B McCarthy thinks that there is an opening for a spec FV tire after the the possible success of the spec FF tire. With that in mind I reviewed that Falken tire option. Aside from the choice of wheels, which relates to the 14 vs 15" wheel size discussion, this is a no-brainer.

Say the Falkens are race competitive for 4 races (claimed to to be good for 3 seasons), the Hoosier are possibly race competitive for 2 races.

BALLPARK: Falkens $100 & Hoosier $200... shipped and mounted. Now using the Falkens, you must purchase a $80-90 wheel. So the first purchase of Falken tires is equal to the cost of a set of Hoosiers. The cost benefit after the initial purchase of the Falken package is just overwhelming in favor of the Falken combination.

What am I missing?
Give me a list of contacts and I should have no problem selling the Falken package.

Brian

[nbrigido]

Based on our experience with the 615K, the F1200 series drivers are getting 3 seasons on average from the tires.

That is 18 20minute races, 6 qualifying and 6-12 practice session per season.

We have yet to experience at tire failure, from racing, in the series.

Would be more than happy to discuss the performance or longevity of the tire rim package.

Derm would know more about the costs in the US which is less than Canada. But last numbers were under 700$ for a complete set of tires and rims.

[BLS]

What am I missing?

Speed. The cars will be slower due to the diameter, weight, and aero. How much slower due to handling I don't know. They are wider but less sticky. They'll all be slower the same amount of course. But there are many that are concerned it ups the differential with the other classes making this a problem. OTOH, if it would increase the car counts to the "old days" FV might run in its own class.

I sure think those EMPI wheels look nice with a set of the 15" Falkens...
Nice straight good looking wheels for under a 100.

[nbrigido]

Speed. The cars will be slower due to the diameter, weight, and aero. How much slower due to handling I don't know. They are wider but less sticky. They'll all be slower the same amount of course. But there are many that are concerned it ups the differential with the other classes making this a problem. OTOH, if it would increase the car counts to the "old days" FV might run in its own class.

On a track like Mosport (CTMP) the different is about 3 seconds 1:42 on Radials vs 1:39 on slicks. Again it makes no difference when all the cars are effected the same. Actually it evens thing out a bit more in the long run when the factor of "new" vs ""5 heat cycles" vs ... is eliminated.

Bringing another option into the whole picture of FV/F1200 I feel will cause more harm than good. Love some of the wheel options out there, look great, but if we start to dilute the situation even more we are asking for more problems, as a group.

The current set-up if Radial on the 14" wheel, has been used and tested for over 20 years. It is not new, not experimental, it is proven. Yes we have move from Yokohama, to Kuhmo, to Falken over the years.

Not saying it is the BEST combo available, but it works, picking up traction, most all the issues have been resolved with it.

You (We) are removing the single biggest consumable cost in racing, an bringing the series back to about the driver not the drivers pocket book.

All I can say, if you have a chance Get to one of the Challenge Cup Races, on of the F1200 Canadian Races and try it for yourself. If there is no race in your area contact Derm at the Challenge Cup, he had Rims in stock and could arrange for tires. All in All it is less than 700$ per set. Try it... Contact Bill Vallis at Vallis Motorsports if you have a concern about the package will effecting the car.