Hoosier Spec Tire for FV

[mikehinkle]

I'm from NE and I couldn't agree more with the Falken tire.
I'll buy a set for the next race if I could get 2 other guys to buy them too.
If I had to run at the back by myself I simply wouldn't run the car. $385 for race entry to drive around by myself? I'll go to autocross for $50.
I wish a few of us back markers would just agree to run them since we can't catch the front guys anyway.
I would compromise with American Racers as well.. why not start saving $300 on a set of tires now?? It's just crazy to not switch to at least the AR even if they last just as long as Hoosiers its money in my pocket for the next race.
I'm easily one of the lowest budget racers in FV maybe some of you other guys don't feel the same but I've seen most of your trucks and trailers you haul with don't tell me the cost of tires doesn't hurt.
These cars are slow anyway and they have drum brakes for crying out loud lets just run cheap tires and be done with it!

[nbrigido]

The drivers in FF are no different than those in FV. The restricted rule set criteria is the same as FV. What the FF class does is indicative of what the average SCCA driver wants in the way of tires. It is not the cheapest possible package but the best compromise between cost and performance.

In fact do the NE Regional competitors really care what SCCA does for the rest of the country in terms of a spec tire? I gather it is 'our way only' from the NE Regional competitors.

Brian

On one side you are saying that FF is indicative of what the SCCA driver wants, on the other had the FV guys made a decision that is good for their region and they don't care about SCCA?

The fact that the guys in the NE made a decision to go forward to increase fields, car counts, and secure single grid races?should not be held against anyone..Yes drivers have gone forward a put an investments into this. All the series and regions have been promoting this.

in the end...instead of waiting around for this winters debate that usually goes no where on SPEC tires, something was done about it and a group of people started the ball rolling.

BTW this is the last place anyone should be arguing about this. This is a place we want potential drivers, returning drivers to see how well the series and groups are flourishing, as well as the positive changes we are all making towards the future.

[problemchild]

The new FF spec tire will be good for 3 events/weekends at the most.

I missed the announcement of the new FF spec tire. Please provide a link.

[B Farnham]

The real question is what is the FV ad hoc committees stance on a spec tire and what work is being done?

[Hardingfv32]

...on the other hand the FV guys made a decision that is good for their region and they don't care about SCCA?

It was a straight forward question. At this point goes it matter to Regional competitors in the NE which way SCCA goes on the subject of a Spec FV tire? You have the spec you want through the sup regulation process. Is that correct?

Brian

[problemchild]

The drivers in FF are no different than those in FV.

Brian

That is nonsense. A new FF costs triple what a new FV costs. Cars at the various levels of preparation would maintain that ratio. Operating costs would be proportional except that they both have open tire rules. With appropriate spec tire rules, the FF would maintain that ratio in increased operational costs. As it stands now, CF with spec tires, is arguably similar, or cheaper, in cost to FV. With a good spec tire, FV will absolutely be the cheapest formula class.

There are people racing in F1200 who have never bought tires. The car came with tires. They went racing. Two years later ......

[problemchild]

It is not the cheapest possible package but the best compromise between cost and performance.


Brian

That is your opinion. I know many FV drivers that would race on wooden tires, as long as everybody had the same. Lets find out what the community wants. Once that is determined, as I suggested before, the choice becomes quite clear.

[Dietmar]

B. Farnham:
The real question is what is the FV ad hoc committees stance on a spec tire and what work is being done?

The Minutes from our last meeting will be posted in a few days on the Interchange.In the meantime, I can say that the Committee will address the issue when the Committee is formally asked. Brian McCarthy has suggested that people write a request to the CRB simply asking for a spec tire to be considered. Nothing else. It will then be up to the CRB and hopefully they will pass on the request to the Ad Hoc Committee.

Dietmar

[nbrigido]

It was a straight forward question. At this point goes it matter to Regional competitors in the NE which way SCCA goes on the subject of a Spec FV tire? You have the spec you want through the sup regulation process. Is that correct?

Brian

Brain, this was a statement you made..as far as I know the SCCA is not even discussing the subject at the moment? Is there another SPEC on the table that provides that same outcome, and has been tested to work, that everyone could have chosen from? are we missing something. So back to your point "which way SCCA goes on the Subject" current it is not going anywhere. and that is all our faults.

The Competitors that have adopted a spec have done so to ensure survival and increase participation in our sport. Sure everyone can wait around for the status quo to do something.

As mentioned above, if everyone is REALLY serious about getting something done, then everyone chip in and follow the process requested by the SCCA. in the meantime regions have moved forward using tested technology, until something formally gets put in place.

Also this forum probably represents 10%, if that, of active drivers in FV so getting the opinion of the drivers will be a process.

[nbrigido]

B. Farnham:
The real question is what is the FV ad hoc committees stance on a spec tire and what work is being done?

The Minutes from our last meeting will be posted in a few days on the Interchange.In the meantime, I can say that the Committee will address the issue when the Committee is formally asked. Brian McCarthy has suggested that people write a request to the CRB simply asking for a spec tire to be considered. Nothing else. It will then be up to the CRB and hopefully they will pass on the request to the Ad Hoc Committee.

Dietmar

Great Point! "The committee will address the issue when the committee is formally asked".

So if everyone is serious about putting a SPEC tire in FV the let's start the process. or we can all sit around tying responses that will go no where, and get nothing done.

Dietmar has put it out there...

I can guarantee everyone that what ever decision SCCA, region, group. come up with..not everyone is going to be happy with it. This is about growing FV..

[nbrigido]

How do Toyo marketing dollars relate/benefit the SCCA FF club racer spec tire choice? How did it bias the general preference of FF competitors to prefer Toyo 888's? The Hoosier R6's were a strong second choice with FF. Falken does not have anything equal to the 888's or R6's for performance. I fully appreciate the 888's and R6's come at higher price. Would expect more performance for that price.

That fact is that outside the NE the average FV competitor has no knowledge of the Canadian spec tire combination. I fully appreciate the NE's comfort with the Canadian option but it does not translate into something that will sell across the whole US.

While it would be easy to use price/cost the only criteria it is in fact more complicated than that.

"Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game." Completely agree but is the NE up for compromise?

Brian

So Brain reading your post i assume that you would like to see the Toyo Tire option. let me ask

- Has it been test on a FV /F1200?
- What is the anticipated Costs?
- What is the Differential of a Virgin tire vs one with 10 Heat Cycles?
- What is the performance compromise vs the current "slick"
- How long will they last?

I could be wrong, but I have not seen or heard of any data on these for FV, for FF yes, lots of Data exist, the Canadian FF Series haas been using them as a spec tire for years, but their data is useless to FV.

Brian the Toyo's are a great tire, do you have anything to look at to see if these should be considered? if it is something the drivers want to look at.

BTW, if we don't start the SCCA process, we will be here 5 years from now asking the same questions, except there will be less of us.

[problemchild]

Writing letters before the direction of choice is apparent, is just going around in circles, confusing the SCCA decision-makers, and playing into the "extending the process forever" game.

Yes. Let everyone write a letter asking SCCA to consider a spec tire for FV AGAIN. Make sure you explain why they should consider a spec tire for FV AGAIN. Then they can refer it to the committee AGAIN that has not successfully completed a task since it was created. Over 5 years ago, that committee conducted a poll and found that 2/3rds of the FV community wanted a spec tire rule, to which SCCA responded by deeming the poll inconclusive, and worthy of no action.

"Status Quo: Extending the Process Forever" would make for a great reality show. You could do one episode and then repeat for 10 years.

I love the implication that the FV Challenge Series organizers are the selfish ones that won't back down and are compromising the ETPF game. During the time since that poll was taken, who else has done anything?

[Rolling Stone]

The drivers in FF are no different than those in FV. The restricted rule set criteria is the same as FV. What the FF class does is indicative of what the average SCCA driver wants in the way of tires. It is not the cheapest possible package but the best compromise between cost and performance.

In fact do the NE Regional competitors really care what SCCA does for the rest of the country in terms of a spec tire? I gather it is 'our way only' from the NE Regional competitors.

Brian

As we say back ome!!

"Its like talking to a bloody brick wall"

[problemchild]

Perhaps, instead of playing the ETPF game again, people that want to use the Falken tire package, should just write the letter requesting that the wheel/tire package be approved for use within the FV rule package. That would allow anybody to go to any SCCA race with 14" Falkens and run as a legal FV. It would require no local politicking and modifying supps, etc. Since the elitist crowd consider these tires so inferior, there should be no pushback from them. Those who want to play ETPF can do so, and those that want to participate NOW can do so with a minimum of fuss. One would think that such a step would be a no-brainer for SCCA leadership. It could certainly happen for 2016!

[Matt King]

The groups taking matters into their own hands by adopting a spec tire are on the right track. Waiting for the SCCA to act is a folly. Half the people racing FV today will be retired before the SCCA takes any action (which is probably exactly what they want).

[rvrrat]

Anyone on the West Coast interested in trying the Falkens - Just let me know as I have a set of wheels and tires for anyone to try.

I made the investment last year as I was tired of constantly paying for tires. For the same price as a set of Hoosiers, I was able to purchase a set of the Diamond wheels and a set of the Falkens - now I am good to go for 2-3 years.

I have raced on Hoosiers, AR and now Falkens. Yes the Hoosier is the fastest. Yes the AR is faster than the Falken - but not much at all. The biggest difference is weight (20 lbs). Handling on the Falkens is terrific. The is no waiting for heat in the tire and there is no degradation in performance throughout a 3-40 min session. Recently at Willow Springs on the Falkens I was off my normal times on the ARs by less than 1/2 second - and I had a BLAST. They are so predictable and I did not need to make a single change to my car. Bolt them on a go. I am still looking for the downside to them. Just last month at Cal Speedway in Fontana I were able to run competitively with the rest of the field that was on ARs while I was on the Falkens - and yes beat them as well !!

And here is the best part. No longer am I worried about pushing the tires too hard in practice or minimizing my track time to save my tires for the race. No longer am I scrambling between sessions to changes tires. I push them as hard as I want knowing that there is plenty tire there for the next 2 YEARS !! Talk about maximizing your racing investment.

The best racing anyone will ever have is when the competition has all of the same equipment and the dollars you invest does not make the difference on the track. Let your driving ability and prep work on the car do the talking. Who cares what tire you are on as long as you are on the same playing filed with everyone else. I refuse to put new tires on every weekend just to be competitive. That is insane !

Again my offer is open to anyone who wants to try the Falkens. Free to use because I know 1) you will love them and be surprised how fun they are and 2) no matter how hard you push them or how many laps you run, there will be plenty of tire left for me to run on for the next 2 YEARS !!

For all of the people against the Falkens - PLEASE take me up on my offer. Then you can make an educated decision.

Thks!

[Rolling Stone]

Anyone on the West Coast interested in trying the Falkens - Just let me know as I have a set of wheels and tires for anyone to try.

I made the investment last year as I was tired of constantly paying for tires. For the same price as a set of Hoosiers, I was able to purchase a set of the Diamond wheels and a set of the Falkens - now I am good to go for 2-3 years.

I have raced on Hoosiers, AR and now Falkens. Yes the Hoosier is the fastest. Yes the AR is faster than the Falken - but not much at all. The biggest difference is weight (20 lbs). Handling on the Falkens is terrific. The is no waiting for heat in the tire and there is no degradation in performance throughout a 3-40 min session. Recently at Willow Springs on the Falkens I was off my normal times on the ARs by less than 1/2 second - and I had a BLAST. They are so predictable and I did not need to make a single change to my car. Bolt them on a go. I am still looking for the downside to them. Just last month at Cal Speedway in Fontana I were able to run competitively with the rest of the field that was on ARs while I was on the Falkens - and yes beat them as well !!

And here is the best part. No longer am I worried about pushing the tires too hard in practice or minimizing my track time to save my tires for the race. No longer am I scrambling between sessions to changes tires. I push them as hard as I want knowing that there is plenty tire there for the next 2 YEARS !! Talk about maximizing your racing investment.

The best racing anyone will ever have is when the competition has all of the same equipment and the dollars you invest does not make the difference on the track. Let your driving ability and prep work on the car do the talking. Who cares what tire you are on as long as you are on the same playing filed with everyone else. I refuse to put new tires on every weekend just to be competitive. That is insane !

Again my offer is open to anyone who wants to try the Falkens. Free to use because I know 1) you will love them and be surprised how fun they are and 2) no matter how hard you push them or how many laps you run, there will be plenty of tire left for me to run on for the next 2 YEARS !!

For all of the people against the Falkens - PLEASE take me up on my offer. Then you can make an educated decision.

Thks!

Well said!!F1200 Assoc: will send you the $50 we promised you for your post(In canadian $ tho)

[Speed Sport Engineering]

What is the weight of a set of Falkens compared to Hoosiers?

[BLS]

What is the weight of a set of Falkens compared to Hoosiers?

Post #37 has the information, 19 pounds for the 14" and 21 for the 15", Vs 12 for the hoosiers. Wheels are about 2 pounds more.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64836

[jeffa711]

I fully agree we need something new!
I don't thing the falken tire is the best answer as the level of performance is less than the hoosiers I'm not looking for a tire that will run 3yrs but if we can be competitive for less than a $1000 a year vs $3000 a year I'm all for it.

the American racer is open to the use of tire softeners which people will use to get an edge up. radial tire can be shaved to get an edge so rule need to be put in place to keep it under control. like outlawing softeners shaving an maybe limit tires per season unless race damaged can be proven.

I have found a nitto tire nt05 205/50/15 that would most likely keep most of the performace but would most likely last a year at less cost of the hoosiers. Toyo tires has the prooxes 880 a tire that is close to the same class.
the real problem with all of this is actually our wheel bolt pattern .
the falkens from what I understand have a heavy steering feel this is do to the offset of the wheels so an aluminum wheel with an offset keeping the center of the wheel more in line with center of the king pin this may have a better feel.

not that im looking to open a can of worms with this but a change to disk brake opens up a whole world of options for wheels and tire combos
part of the expense of our tire is the limited production so a better more universally used tire would be a start. below are just the 2 tires I mentioned

http://www.nittotire.com/passenger-t...formance-tire/


http://toyotires.com/tire/pattern/pr...n-tires?cat=11

[problemchild]

The Challenge Series package is around 50 lbs heavier, plus/minus a few depending on the VW wheels you start with. I believe the minimum weight is increased by 50 lbs.

Tire shaving is not desirable on these light cars so no rule is required. It just cuts life without adding performance. The Falken package is fully developed. Any additional rule considerations were explored, tested, and deemed unnecessary. We're 35 years in.

[nbrigido]

The Challenge Series package is around 50 lbs heavier, plus/minus a few depending on the VW wheels you start with. I believe the minimum weight is increased by 50 lbs.

Tire shaving is not desirable on these light cars so no rule is required. It just cuts life without adding performance. The Falken package is fully developed. Any additional rule considerations were explored, tested, and deemed unnecessary. We're 35 years in.

Yes we adjusted minimum weight to 1075 to compensate for the tire package.

[FVRacer21]

After reading these posts, I feel we have the most ardent members voicing their choice.

However, there may be hundreds more out there, who don't go to ApexSpeed and we really need their input. I also want to propose that we settle on two choices or maybe 3 to give the FV community something to think hard about.

First - what we do not want.

Status quo - Negative:

Current Hoosier tires are expensive,
have a limited heat cycle life,
should be properly broken in,
and are tough for the average person to mount.

Staus Quo - Positive

Everyone across the country has same equipment and can run in any race in US.
There is an underground market for takeoff tires
If another tire manufacturer enters, no rules changes needed.

Spec tire statements and questions:

If we go with the Falkens, then you are running the same tire and wheel all around.
If Hoosier made a harder, longer lasting tire, and sold it for less, would some people still not buy new and wait for used tires to hit the market?
If we go with the Falkens, will other rules need to be adjusted (minimum weight, track, etc?)
There are 95 individual drivers who raced in majors this year, how many of them would leave the class rather than switch to the Falkens?
Whether Falken or Hoosier, will the supply and technology remain frozen for at least 3 years?
Will the wheel manufacturer(s) be able to supply the quantity and quality for 2016 and beyond?

So, I think here are 2 reasonable proposals.

1. Falken (or other manufacturer) size 196/60-14 radial tire on steel wheels (any manufacturer that meets specs? Alloys later?)
2. Minimum weight revised up to ???
3. Mandatory use as a rain tire? ( or else people will still keep a set of rains if they think it is safer)

Positives:
1. Tires last a looonnggg time
2. Need only one or 2 spares
3. From memory - do not go flat!
4. Bigger hole in the air - maybe more drafting
5. Better gas mileage (just kidding)

Negatives:
1. LOTS of people have to by wheels
2. Can you control cheating on a National (Majors) level - (shaving, treating, etc.)
3. If this does not attract new people, will there be a net loss from people leaving the class?
4. Makes ALL existing tires and wheels worthless.

----------------------------------------

Spec Slick

1. Mandatory to run same size (rears) all around (no different that the Falken)
2. Hoosier “60” compound or AR 132 compound (if Hoosier is slightly harder and slower no reason not to allow people to run an even “slower” tire.
3. Tire companies agree to freeze development for the year and NO special Runoff tires.

I see this as a very easy to implement choice:
1. No change to existing weight or track rule.
2. Everyone has wheels they need.
3. Tires can be easily rotated to even wear - may lessen need to flip tires.
4. Lessens “push” with some cars.
5. Minimal changes to setup
6. Manufacturing only one size HAS to lead to lower prices.

Negative:
1. Still have to carry rain tires (which are the same size all around BTW)
2. People will still believe tires are faster on less heat cycles.
3. Makes most existing tires worthless.

There are people already running this last setup and get close to a full season (6 weekends) on one set of tires. (You mileage may vary)

You may fire when ready.

ChrisZ

[B Farnham]

I have found a nitto tire nt05 205/50/15 that would most likely keep most of the performace but would most likely last a year at less cost of the hoosiers. Toyo tires has the prooxes 880 a tire that is close to the same class.
the real problem with all of this is actually our wheel bolt pattern .
the falkens from what I understand have a heavy steering feel this is do to the offset of the wheels so an aluminum wheel with an offset keeping the center of the wheel more in line with center of the king pin this may have a better feel.

The steering feel on the Falkens isn't any different than on slicks and the car actually feels more balanced and stable with the wider track.

The problem with other tire compunds is that the softer the street tire the more likely a new set would have an advantage over an old set where as with the Falken compund there isn't an advantage. The other issue is that you'd have to test the other compunds for a few years in order to be able to know how the old and new sets differ.

The Falkens are proven and are already in use, why change something that works? For those that haven't tried them just run them for one weekend and you'll be hooked.

[problemchild]

Chris,
Under negatives for status quo slicks, you missed several points.
- they are undersized, which means more rpm
- there are different sizes available, which if not covered by rules, means different people will select different size tires for tuning purposes
- tires are different size front and rear, which means the ability to rotate tires for maximum life is reduced
-compounds? If not covered by rules, means different compounds means different people will select different compounds for tuning purposes
- tire sponsorships. The regional guys and mid-pack national guys are funding the winning drivers.
- excessive quantity of wheels are required

Under positives, for the Falken tire package.
- the initial set of Falken wheels and tires will cost less than a new set of slicks. The cost of wheels is essentially less than FREE. That really eliminates your negative points 1 and 4.

FWIW, I have not endorsed the Falken package but I certainly feel obligated to present facts and correct misconceptions. I would certainly consider other options, but nobody has presented anything resembling another viable option. When I started racing FV in 1980, we thought it was stupid that a set of FV tires cost $600. We did something about it. During the 35 years since, who else has done anything. If somebody has a better plan, get it out there!

[nbrigido]

Anyone on the West Coast interested in trying the Falkens - Just let me know as I have a set of wheels and tires for anyone to try.

I made the investment last year as I was tired of constantly paying for tires. For the same price as a set of Hoosiers, I was able to purchase a set of the Diamond wheels and a set of the Falkens - now I am good to go for 2-3 years.

I have raced on Hoosiers, AR and now Falkens. Yes the Hoosier is the fastest. Yes the AR is faster than the Falken - but not much at all. The biggest difference is weight (20 lbs). Handling on the Falkens is terrific. The is no waiting for heat in the tire and there is no degradation in performance throughout a 3-40 min session. Recently at Willow Springs on the Falkens I was off my normal times on the ARs by less than 1/2 second - and I had a BLAST. They are so predictable and I did not need to make a single change to my car. Bolt them on a go. I am still looking for the downside to them. Just last month at Cal Speedway in Fontana I were able to run competitively with the rest of the field that was on ARs while I was on the Falkens - and yes beat them as well !!

And here is the best part. No longer am I worried about pushing the tires too hard in practice or minimizing my track time to save my tires for the race. No longer am I scrambling between sessions to changes tires. I push them as hard as I want knowing that there is plenty tire there for the next 2 YEARS !! Talk about maximizing your racing investment.

The best racing anyone will ever have is when the competition has all of the same equipment and the dollars you invest does not make the difference on the track. Let your driving ability and prep work on the car do the talking. Who cares what tire you are on as long as you are on the same playing filed with everyone else. I refuse to put new tires on every weekend just to be competitive. That is insane !

Again my offer is open to anyone who wants to try the Falkens. Free to use because I know 1) you will love them and be surprised how fun they are and 2) no matter how hard you push them or how many laps you run, there will be plenty of tire left for me to run on for the next 2 YEARS !!

For all of the people against the Falkens - PLEASE take me up on my offer. Then you can make an educated decision.

Thks!

This is an amazing offer that will allow those with preconceived notions to test the package. FTDA (Formula 1200 Drivers Association) will also offer the same offer for anyone that would like to try them at one of the remaining F1200 event (Calabogie and Mosport) as well the Challenge Cup always has a spare set available for rent for race weekends. The next one is in NJ at the end of the month..

[Hardingfv32]

[QUOTE=problemchild;480474Under negatives for status quo slicks, you missed several points.
- they are undersized, which means more rpm
- there are different sizes available, which if not covered by rules, means different people will select different size tires for tuning purposes
- tires are different size front and rear, which means the ability to rotate tires for maximum life is reduced
-compounds? If not covered by rules, means different compounds means different people will select different compounds for tuning purposes
- tire sponsorships. The regional guys and mid-pack national guys are funding the winning drivers.
- excessive quantity of wheels are required

I certainly feel obligated to present facts and correct misconceptions. ![/QUOTE]

Well then let us state them correctly.....

1) Undersized tire: The engines and exhaust systems are tuned for the current Hoosier tire size. Now you can brush this off but for those of us actually competing this will have to be addressed.

2) As of today there are only front and rear Hoosier R55A tires available. No other manufacture will is going to make anything better than Hoosier at this point. Hoosier will not make a custom run of FV tires if asked.

There is no tuning with different tire sizes unless you use the fronts on the rear. Now that is not impossible to do but it does take some thoughtful engineering and only has benefit at 2-3 tracks in the US.

3) Rotate tires: Does it not strike you as odd that the slick setup requires smaller fronts yet you use the same size tire all around with the Falkens. I challenge the assessment that the Falkens handle great.

4) Fewer wheels: A competitor driver will need the same amount of wheels. All tire get harder as their heat history increases. The perception will always be that fresh tires are faster. And with low cost of the Falkens why not have multi sets in rotation. I know changing tires is a lot of work but that is what you do when you are competing.

I know it is claimed that shaving the Falkens is on no value. This is not that case with all other tall thread radials. There is going to be a sweet spot for the correct combination of heat history and thread depth.

5) Tire contingencies should end with the implementation of a spec tire.

Brian

[problemchild]

Well then let us state them correctly.....

1) Undersized tire: The engines and exhaust systems are tuned for the current Hoosier tire size. Now you can brush this off but for those of us actually competing this will have to be addressed.

2) As of today there are only front and rear Hoosier R55A tires available. No other manufacture will is going to make anything better than Hoosier at this point. Hoosier will not make a custom run of FV tires if asked.

There is no tuning with different tire sizes unless you use the fronts on the rear. Now that is not impossible to do but it does take some thoughtful engineering and only has benefit at 2-3 tracks in the US.

3) Rotate tires: Does it not strike you as odd that the slick setup requires smaller fronts yet you use the same size tire all around with the Falkens. I challenge the assessment that the Falkens handle great.

4) Fewer wheels: A competitor driver will need the same amount of wheels. All tire get harder as their heat history increases. The perception will always be that fresh tires are faster. And with low cost of the Falkens why not have multi sets in rotation. I know changing tires is a lot of work but that is what you do when you are competing.

5) Tire contingencies should end with the implementation of a spec tire.

Brian

1) Sorry. I consider the current size of tire a negative of monumental proportions. Running longboxs with 23.0 tires, as FV did for the first 35 years, lowered the rpm and was just plain better for the engines. I personally could never support a spec tire with miniature sized tires.

2) "As of today" is hardly a standard than ensures any spec tomorrow. I agree that Hoosier is uninterested in tires that will not have to be purchased less than several times per season.

3) I ran 23.0s on all 4 corners of my FVs in the 90s when I was trying to run Nationals without new tires every 3 sessions. Everybody I know, but you, thinks there FV is prone to understeer, or just plain understeers. Yes, I consider different sized front and rear tires to be a negative, relative to same-sized tires.

4) When I was trying to run Nationals without buying tires every 3 sessions, I had tires mounted on different wheels for every session. I have read on Apexspeed that Runoff Champions are still doing that. I had over 20 wheels to run one FV. I ran a 2-car F1200 team for a season with 10 wheels and tires total. We won 9 races.

5) Yes, I agree. Tire sponsorships are wrong, and a big part of the elitist's resistance to spec tires.

[FVRacer21]

Guys, Thanks for the comments: (some of which Greg addressed in his next post)

From Greg Rice:

Under negatives for status quo slicks, you missed several points.
“- they are undersized, which means more rpm” (Agree but unless you make a spec tranny, the only gear this affects is 4th)
- there are different sizes available, which if not covered by rules, means different people will select different size tires for tuning purposes (Agree)
- tires are different size front and rear, which means the ability to rotate tires for maximum life is reduced
-compounds? If not covered by rules, means different compounds means different people will select different compounds for tuning purposes (Agree - addressed in positives for a single size/compound)
- tire sponsorships. The regional guys and mid-pack national guys are funding the winning drivers. (Agree but offset with market for Takoffs - some of which are given for free)
- excessive quantity of wheels are required (No question about this one.)

Under positives, for the Falken tire package.
- the initial set of Falken wheels and tires will cost less than a new set of slicks. The cost of wheels is essentially less than FREE. That really eliminates your negative points 1 and 4. (Here I disagree - even if you give away the wheels AND tires for free, there will be people who refuse to run them and leave the class. Some people look not just at the cost, but what they will loose on their investment, besides the development costs.)

“When I started racing FV in 1980, we thought it was stupid that a set of FV tires cost $600.” At that time Bridgestone entered the FV market and produced what I think was the best FV tire I ever raced on. Alas they left the market to sponsor Indy Cars or something . A set was under $400. (US) at the time. If Mike Palermo is listening - maybe he could chime in as he bought out their stock and the Vee Racers Of Colorado raced on them for another 3 years as their “spec” tire. Of course they also went to Hoosier and had the VROC tire made which would last for 20+ heat cycles.

“During the 35 years since, who else has done anything?”

On a regional level we had the Bridgestones above, the VROC, The American Racers in CA, here in the NE we had the Hoosier 60, and allowed both the EMRA (They made several attempts thanks to Brian Donovan) and Canadian radial setup. The fact that none of these (Bill Noble won a National Race on the VROCs and we had people win regionals on radials against slicks, in our Club Vee class) had the muscle to go National proves to me that this is not an easy nut to crack. Personally I invested a few thousand dollars and lost about 2 seasons trying to convince people of the advantages of a spec tire.

From Brian Harding:

1) Undersized tire: The engines and exhaust systems are tuned for the current Hoosier tire size. Now you can brush this off but for those of us actually competing this will have to be addressed. (Agree - there will be development cost if you make a drastic change.)

2) As of today there are only front and rear Hoosier R55A tires available. No other manufacture will is going to make anything better than Hoosier at this point. Hoosier will not make a custom run of FV tires if asked. (Hoosier is in business to make money - unless in the rules, if 95 “Majors” customers go to Hoosier, and put money down, Hoosier will build anything they want - if they can.

There is no tuning with different tire sizes unless you use the fronts on the rear. Now that is not impossible to do but it does take some thoughtful engineering and only has benefit at 2-3 tracks in the US. (With the loss of the “wide” front this is probably true - but watch someone at Daytona try fronts all around.

3) Rotate tires: Does it not strike you as odd that the slick setup requires smaller fronts yet you use the same size tire all around with the Falkens. I challenge the assessment that the Falkens handle great. (Having driven on the predecessor of the Falkens, I can tell you that a street radial handles fine. And as far as needing a smaller front than rear, how come rain tires only come in one size? Knowing many people having run rears all around (Gene Grimes as the first as I remember) there may be an aerodynamic factor, but not a handing issue.

4) Fewer wheels: A competitor driver will need the same amount of wheels. All tire get harder as their heat history increases. The perception will always be that fresh tires are faster. And with low cost of the Falkens why not have multi sets in rotation. I know changing tires is a lot of work but that is what you do when you are competing. (Agree that you can’t keep people from spending their own money. As Greg said in a post, shaving does not result in a faster tire, but there will always be those who believe it. There will be people who buy new tires for every race. But it will not make a difference.

5) Tire contingencies should end with the implementation of a spec tire. (Agreed)

ChrisZ

[Hardingfv32]

Damm those elitist's but unfortunately they are not going away.

1) So you agree that the engines and exhaust would change change using Falkens if you are very competitive... sorry elitist's?

2) Your certain Hoosier is not interested in providing something better? That is not the vibe I am getting.

3) Why have we not gravitated to larger fronts if what you say is true? Hoosier had a wide front that they discontinued because of lack of sales. I still challenge the same size tires idea as valid at least on a competitive car.

4) You won 9 races but you were not running against any elitist's were you.

Brian

[blackhole]

4) You won 9 races but you were not running against any elitist's were you.

Brian

All that I can say is HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Greg and his guys were running against some of the best drivers in the country.

[Hardingfv32]

I can tell you that a street radial handles fine.

'Fine' does not cut it with the elitist's. The elitist are the ones buying the majority of FV tires these days.

Rice's assessment that shaving is of no value is not valid based the history of how other street radials are prepared. To me this is just another example of the simplistic criteria that went into the Falken selection. It was simply about cost.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Greg and his guys were running against some of the best drivers in the country.

But was he running against best teams in the country.... that is car and driver? Elitist's I think not.

Brian

[Ty_Handke_83]

If everybody is on the same tires, and has to deal with the same issues, so what? If it gets more cars on the track isn't that a good thing?
Even if guys want to buy multiple sets of tires to shave, let them. They will still be cheaper, and you can spend the extra couple thousand dollars on re-tuning your engine and exhaust (one time cost) for those last few hundredths of a second.

[blackhole]

But was he running against best teams in the country.... that is car and driver? Elitist's I think not.

Brian

I would like to think so.

[Hardingfv32]

If it gets more cars on the track isn't that a good thing?

The spec tire is not going to get more cars on the track. SFRegion used AR's as a spec Regional tire for almost a decade and FV is now dead in the SFR. Absolutely no positive correlation.

The Spec tire program is for the benefit of the current competitors. Lower costs while maintaining the car's performance near current levels. The majority of current US competitor will not accept a big reduction in car performance.

Brian

[jpetillo]

It's good to see a debate. That the Falken package is something to consider has been beaten to death. Yes, it's an option - let's put it on the table as and option and move forward.

If we're going to make such a radical change to the FV class in the US, then not building up a list of possible options and approaches - with new ideas - and just going with a 35 year old idea would be a disservice to the class and community. We should be considering that any change in rules should expect to remain stable for the long term. Let's think that way. Let's see what we can do that is new, and then see how it compares with what is currently done.

I'd say to forget about the current slicks and the Falkens and think new, and then see where that gets us. John

[problemchild]

Damm those elitist's but unfortunately they are not going away.

1) So you agree that the engines and exhaust would change change using Falkens if you are very competitive... sorry elitist's?

2) Your certain Hoosier is not interested in providing something better? That is not the vibe I am getting.

3) Why have we not gravitated to larger fronts if what you say is true? Hoosier had a wide front that they discontinued because of lack of sales. I still challenge the same size tires idea as valid at least on a competitive car.

4) You won 9 races but you were not running against any elitist's were you.

Brian

1) I guess we must disagree on the number of elitists out there. I am more concerned with the other 97% .... you know, the regular guys, who have their $5-10K they can pry away as disposable income ..... to race FV. I don't believe that these people have optimized their engines or exhausts to anything. They likely have the exhaust that came with the car and will update it when it rots out. Sorry Brian, I am not interested in what I can sell FV racers, or Falken, or Hoosier, or Monster, or anybody else can sell FV racers. I believe that an increasing number of people want to return FV to what it was meant to be. I expect those people who started the class are rolling over in their graves. If I am wrong, then the elitists will band together and make sure the status quo is maintained.

2) I believe Hoosier is capable of building the best version of any kind of tire that they choose to. I do not believe they have any desire to build tires like many FV racers want. Again, what are people waiting for? Build the tire. Test the tire. Sell the tire to the FV community as the best spec tire. I will absolutely support the best option, but at this point, the only two options are the status quo and the Falken package. Any other options are years, if not decades away. The ETPF game insures that.

3) If everybody has the same wheels and tires, who cares if the engineering is 80s technology. We are racing cars based on 40s technology.

4) Actually, we were the elitists in the crowd. The elitists will end up at the pointy end at the end of the day. Everybody just spends a whole lot less money. That is the point

[nbrigido]

The spec tire is not going to get more cars on the track. SFRegion used AR's as a spec Regional tire for almost a decade and FV is now dead in the SFR. Absolutely no positive correlation.

The Spec tire program is for the benefit of the current competitors. Lower costs while maintaining the car's performance near current levels. The majority of current US competitor will not accept a big reduction in car performance.

Brian

How can anyone speak for 'the majority of US competitors' ???

[Bruce]

How many are you?
Do any of you race outside of Canada or the NE Region? If so how many?