2015 NWFC rule change ideas (outsiders welcome to discuss)

[ccoffin]

Please post any and all ideas for rule change discussion regarding the 2015 NWFC season. I will post some that I have heard here in the first post momentarily. After discussion we will send out a survey to members.

1. Car weights: pre-90=1175, pintos after 90 1190, zetecs stay at 1240
Reasoning: original weights for cars.
2. Reallocation of points groups to pre-90, all other pinto's, and zetecs
Reasoning: tweener cars are pretty close to being even. So no need to split.

[RSS]

Single point per race start to differentiate between those who finished out of the points and those who didn't attend.

[ccoffin]

Thanks Roger, forgot that one

Also I'd like to add spec tire (w transition year where all tires are still allowed to use up current stock). Suggestions for tire are the west coast Pirelli, east coast Hoosier, american racers, or...? Idea being that we cut down on tire costs.

[HayesCages]

In addition to regular points those using take-off tires get:

-1.5 seconds from race lap times,
3 points for starting,
2 for finishing, 1 more for having to plug hole in one tire 15 minutes prior to race start

So I'll have to take that second battery out of my car now eh?

[RSS]

What about markers on the hills in Spokane closest to the top wins 5 bonus points.

Then you would have really cleaned up in Race 1 Lawrence.

[HayesCages]

Yes! Maybe something like a golf hole with a flag and all; Car that gets closest to it AND can drive away gets top score!

[gcoffin]

I will propose the weight change to ICSCC at 1175 for pre 90 cars, 1190 for pintos and to conform with current SCCA/ICSCC rules all others 1200. We will continue at 1240 for ztecs in NWFC races

[gcoffin]

I think what LH is pointing out is that some of our drivers never buy new tires....relegating them to take off spec tires

An alternative might be limiting drivers to 2 sets of new race tires per season, and no limit on take offs

[HayesCages]

Kidding mostly as everyone's idea of "take-off" tires could be different. It would be a can of worms...

Rule book:
"'Take-off' tires will be tires that have at least 6 heat cycles on them, will be sold/given to another competitor, etc."

At the track:
"Psst, hey you, I've got a 2 cycle set of tires I'll sell you cheap. I've put 6 hash marks on them so they qualify as take-offs".

[quickmag]

I am not in favour (Canadian spelling of course) of running a spec tire. Two new sets a year sounds reasonable, but policing it (if required) could be difficult.

[RSS]

If the spec tire would cost half of the current set I am sure you would change your mind.

[ccoffin]

Also, with a spec tire there is the possibility of contingencies.

[rickb99]

.... Pirelli....

Who's the area dealer for Pirelli race tires? Never seen them around here at any race. Matter of fact between SCCA, iCSCC and SOVREN I don't recall seeing a single car running Pirelli tires?

SECOND:

A whole season on two sets of tires??? Man I'd be shocked at that. When we were running, we ran nothing but Berget two to three heat cycle take offs. We were really lucky to get THREE weekends out of them. One time, at the end of the third weekend we had two tires in the set that were down to cords in several spots! We got in the habit of doing 2 weekends plus a warm up session per set.

[RSS]

I believe the dealer for pirelli is down california as the pacificF2000 guys are running them this season.

2 new sets a season is what we try and run plus whatever we have left over from last season to do practice sessions and such.

[ccoffin]

Rick,

On the west coast I believe we would go through Les Phillips to get the tire. I think he is distributing them for the pacific f2000 championship. I have heard from 2 sources that they are liking the tire as the speeds are not noticeably different and they are getting more miles for the same price as their previous bias-ply of choice.

I may be incorrect but I believe 2 sets per season implies reducing the schedule to four weekends from five. So 1 set for two weekends, which I think is already what most of the drivers do, but this way we lock it in to control costs to be competitive for a season don't spiral out of control as the series grows.

[HayesCages]

Pirelli = radial, correct? Have to make a big camber change that some chassis weren't designed for.

[rickb99]

....I may be incorrect but I believe 2 sets per season implies reducing the schedule to four weekends from five. So 1 set for two weekends....

Ohhh my, my That does make sense now. I forgot the 'series' doesn't include ALL of the ICSCC races in the season. Sure 4 or 5 weekends on two sets of tires is possible as long as you could use 'oldies' for practice.

[fmsports]

Any word on if any decisions were made as to if we will be going to spec tire?

[RSS]

No spec tire for 2016 still up for discussion in 2017

[patman]

Looks like weights change for 2016 though?

(saw it in Conference newsletter)

[rickb99]

No spec tire for 2016 still up for discussion in 2017

I would think if you want a spec tire you'd choose one that's more common to the class like, Avon, Goodyear, Hoosier. Why pick a serious off brand for the class like Pirelli which are only used at the highest level of our sport.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I would think if you want a spec tire you'd choose one that's more common to the class like, Avon, Goodyear, Hoosier. Why pick a serious off brand for the class like Pirelli which are only used at the highest level of our sport.

Because they are a better value?

Same cost, more good laps = better value....

Just a guess.....

[RSS]

Weights changes points changes race weekend changes bunch of stuff.

Will try and get the news letter out here soon.

[fmsports]

Thanks for the info. I look forward to the newsletter!

Also, what kind of concensus needs to happen for a spec tire to be decided upon for next year? If a spec tire that offered a contingency program and reduced tire costs over the course of the season could be found, it would be a big bonus to this already great series. Atleast it seems that way to me!

[gcoffin]

the best way to build consensus for a spec tire is to buy a set and race them all season and if they give a similar level of performance at a lower price per mile/heat session everyone will eventually change.

Other options to level the field is to limit the number of tires, or to prohibit the softest Hoosier and Avon offerings.

If we designate a spec tire it also means that everyone has to buy a set, and as there are a number of guys running take offs we could lose racers. It also means that all the set up work for no longer permitted tires goes out the window.

[gcoffin]

icscc revised FC weights to 1190 for 1990 and newer pinto powered cars and 1175 for pre 1990 cars.

Ztec cars will remain at 1240 for NWFC races

[patman]

Greg there must be a misprint in the Conference newsletter then, it says Zetec will be 1200lbs?

FWIW I am cool with a spec tire if it is cheaper/better/offers contingency. Of course I have a short history in FC so not much to lose there...

[HayesCages]

I believe it is a weight rule within the NWFC group, not ICSCC.

No tire rule or spec tire = spending $4500+ for the NWFC season, more if you race all Conference races.

[rickb99]

This is what Hoosier were a little while ago:

The prices listed below are the same for all compounds - R25B, R35A, R45B

Specs:

Front: Item: 43162 - 20.5 x 7.0 - 13 - $186.00 each
Rear: Item 43289 - 22.0 x 8.0 - 13 - $213.00 each
or
Rear: Item 43293 - 22.0 x 9.0 - 13 - $224.00 each

So, $798 note, not current.

I see some Pirelli slicks that seem to be in the FC sizes (not easy to find on line) priced at about $230 each. Assuming they have a similar compound to the R35, I cannot imagine them lasting more then the (about) 8 heat cycles of a Hoosier.

P.S. in case you aren't aware, the R45 tire is intended for S2's where the fenders can keep more heat in the tires. On a pure open wheeler, they are too hard. Trust me,before learning this from a source of all knowledge, we tried them on our Reynard (bad idea).

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This is what Hoosier were a little while ago:

The prices listed below are the same for all compounds - R25B, R35A, R45B

Specs:

Front: Item: 43162 - 20.5 x 7.0 - 13 - $186.00 each
Rear: Item 43289 - 22.0 x 8.0 - 13 - $213.00 each
or
Rear: Item 43293 - 22.0 x 9.0 - 13 - $224.00 each

So, $798 note, not current.

I see some Pirelli slicks that seem to be in the FC sizes (not easy to find on line) priced at about $230 each. Assuming they have a similar compound to the R35, I cannot imagine them lasting more then the (about) 8 heat cycles of a Hoosier.

Hoosier West lists them at $220 (H43163R35A), $255 (H43289R35A) and $274 (H43292R35A)
http://www.hoosiertirewest.com/brows...icks/2,31.html

So if you are getting tires for your prices I wouldn't switch either.

All I know is everyone I've talked to that is running the Pirellis likes them and claim they last much longer than Hoosiers ever did.

[RSS]

I believe it is a weight rule within the NWFC group, not ICSCC.

No tire rule or spec tire = spending $4500+ for the NWFC season, more if you race all Conference races.

Correct on the first part and a WTF on the second! I don't think anyone used more than 2 new sets of tires during the NWFC 2015 season and I think that would be the upper limit we can all agree on.

Most people seam to have switched over to the AVON so the Hoosier/Pirelli comparison doesn't mean much as I find the AVON lasts a fair bit longer (At good pace) than the Hoosier does.

[Spengo]

Correct on the first part and a WTF on the second! I don't think anyone used more than 2 new sets of tires during the NWFC 2015 season and I think that would be the upper limit we can all agree on.

Really? That's incredible, I never imagined my tire budget could get cheaper when switching to formula cars from go karts. In the 4-stroke kart tires last a few weekends but in the shifter kart I've gotta buy a set for every race day. It's only about $215 or something for all four tires though, itty bitty wheels.

What are your rain tires like? Do you have an intermediate compound for when it's too damp for slicks but too dry for rains?

[HayesCages]

Todays prices from Roger Krause on a set of Avons is $1178; $286 front and $303 rear, each tire.
Add about $120 in freight to that number. Mounting and balancing + = ??

(deduct $40 each front tire for 7.0")

[patman]

I believe it is a weight rule within the NWFC group, not ICSCC.

OK, that makes sense, but I'm still a bit confused. Who would race an FC in Conference but not in NWFC?

And if conference rules have been changed to reflect weights different from SCCA, then why wouldn't they reflect NWFC weights, since everyone actually racing needs to conform to NWFC anyway?

Not a big deal to me, as I don't expect to pass any Zetec cars anyway, but just a little confused as to why it makes sense for NWFC to have any different rules than ICSCC.
Am I wrong about thinking that ICSCC FC class basically is the same as NWFC?

[rickb99]

OK, that makes sense, but I'm still a bit confused. Who would race an FC in Conference but not in NWFC? ....

Actually, as with many classes in ICSCC, the FC rules in ICSCC are/were intended to conform to the specifications as defined by SCCA! That way, there were uniform rules so ICSCC competitors and SCCA competitors could race in each others event AND it saved ICSCC the expense of having to write a gigantic rules book. However, considering the continued declne of SCCA in the Northwest what ICSCC does with FC independent of SCCA is becoming less of an issue except to people who may race ICSCC but with to try and qualify for the run offs each year.

[HayesCages]

ICSCC FC cars were required by the class rule to conform to SCCA GCR. New ICSCC rule change reflects the new weight classification.

NWFC is using the rule described above.

Running in SCCA one would have to use the 1200 lb. min. scale weight.

I don't believe there are any bias intermediate tires offered but I think that you could groove a set yourself from slicks.

[RSS]

Also don't forget we run in 2 other governing bodies other than ICSCC (WCMA/SCCBC) and the rules might be slightly different in each. For our local race (WCMA) we can always make a request to have the supp regs changed for that weekend over to the NWFC rules.

Currently WCMA specs 1190 min weight for FC. Not sure FC is considered a full active class with SCCBC?

I don't even want to know what tires cost now with the CDN dollar where it is.

[RSS]

What are your rain tires like? Do you have an intermediate compound for when it's too damp for slicks but too dry for rains?

Rain tires prices are similar I believe but generally will last you a long time as long as you don't go out in the dry in them.

I have had the same set of rain tires for 3 years now.

No one is running inters. I believe Greg has a set but that's just to look like he his serious.

[ccoffin]

I believe the minimum was left at 1200 for zetecs in ICSCC, as to maintain conformity with other sanctioning bodies. While there is no reason to not run NWFC if you are running ICSCC, there is a chance for people from outside the region to come and run an ICSCC race that is not NWFC and it would be a shame for them to be dq'd because they were not prepared to be 40 lbs heavier. Dropping the weights of older cars below other sanctioning bodies does not have this same consequence, will hopefully tighten up the racing, and resets those weights to where they were initially built at.

Re: spec tire. In addition to what was mentioned above: It makes more sense to limit the #of sets this year to control cost, then spec a tire. We are collecting data from a number of sources regarding quality and longevity of other options. The majority of our highest participating drivers only used two sets (including first and second place overall). There is no sponsorship/contingency money on the table right now for tires.

Thanks for the questions keep them coming

[ccoffin]

Rain tires prices are similar I believe but generally will last you a long time as long as you don't go out in the dry in them.

I have had the same set of rain tires for 3 years now.

No one is running inters. I believe Greg has a set but that's just to look like he his serious.

I can confirm that he does have a set of radial inters that have never been on the car while being powered by the engine, and that he has possibly worn out a set of rain tires from non-use. We try to make sure we schedule our races for when it is most likely not to rain.