Think anyone at Ford USA gives a flying hoot about entry-level OW? 99.9 percent of Ford's interest in motorsports begins and ends with Keselowski winning the Sprint Cup.Originally Posted by TimW
Think anyone at Ford USA gives a flying hoot about entry-level OW? 99.9 percent of Ford's interest in motorsports begins and ends with Keselowski winning the Sprint Cup.
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
Will this car force the current FF/FC manufacturers to rethink how they price and sell cars? Maybe they need to offer chassis with affordable yet updateable items. Aero, uprights, and wheels to mind.
Even if the class doesn't take off, I'd find it hard to convince a customer to pay 100k for a new tube frame, h-pattern F2000 car with an out of production engine when he knows another company is building a carbon tub, paddle shift, eco boost powered car for 60k.
Apparently their pouting match in front of the SCCA BOD in 2009 before the Honda vote proves they do (or did, for at least a brief moment).
------------------
'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
It'll be very interesting to hear more than just a press release about this series. It sounds on the surface like a good idea but I am curious as to the rulebook and governing body and the vision for the future of this class. The gp2, GP3, F3, etc have all evolved are 5 years or so forcing new chassis and engine packages. I imagine the FIA vision of F1 is similar, so how does FRP see this fitting into this series
NOT quite true when you consider they are taking the new GT to Le Mans next year!
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
I just can't believe what prices have done since I bought new Van Diemens. RF03Z cooper Zetec less the dash + shipping for 39K. RF99 Kent less dash/shocks/wheels + shipping for 29K. Even though these cars needed to be properly built and de-bugged they were relatively in-expensive compared to the cars of today. This F4 is relatively cheap, modern and capable of winning a championship.
New pro series cars introduce updated safety construction and these cars could be good for club racing in the near future. We as club members may have the opportunity to purchase the cars at a discount rate as they trickle out of the series. But this car does not match any current formula, so in the long run FF or FC might be replaced by this carbon fiber chassis. This could send the current tube frame cars out to pasture but there are to many of them out there to ignore. It's all speculation what the ramifications of F4 will be to FRP & club racing but entry level racing for those over 30 should be fun so spend what you can and race what you have.
Regarding spec cars - The most enjoyable and challenging racing I have encountered over the past 33 years of driving FF/FC/FA was in the Cooper F2000 Series. You leave all the excuses behind when everyone has the same engine, wheels, gears, shock/springs & wings. Either you rise to the challenge or go home dejected. It was also great fun beating up on the kids and pissing off their daddy's. (Go get'em Steve)
I wish the FRP and F4 series well on this endeavor.
Jason
Pretty much a given when it is the only chassis in the series!
So that begs the question as to why? (besides the obvious $) If this is to be by FIA International rules then why is the Mygale the only chassis allowed, there are other chassis manufactures involved in the series internationally. As it stands now someone could take this package and race elsewhere but unless you are in a Mygale you cant come from elsewhere to here.Pretty much a given when it is the only chassis in the series!
Just curious.
Some F4 series such as England, Germany, use the Mygale chassis with Ecoboost engine I believe. Other series use different packages but you can only race with the car designated by the individual series. So you could not take a Mygale and race in a Tattus F4 series.
The standards the car is built and sold to are regulated by the FIA. There are a few chassis manufactures and different F4 series around the world. Each series runs only one designated chassis and one engine.
F4 USA will be Mygale chassis and Ecoboost engine. The chassis makes sense for FRP as Mygale North America has full track support at each race FRP run. They are and will be there to support their customers which makes carrying a smaller spare package possible along with track side support.
It makes total sense, to me at least, why Mygale was the choice for FRP.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 08.07.15 at 9:48 PM.
Steve Bamford
I would like to add to a good point that Dave brought up.(DFR)
It's not just a price of car ,it is also spare part prices.
Everybody knows that all regular consumer items are more expensive in Europe.
Apparently it doesn't; apply to entry level formula race cars.
Go to Race cars direct.com and see what car you can get for between 25 and 35 k us dollars.((carbon tub 06 and up 200 to 300 hp) with enough spares to cover half season)
then go to Renault 1.6 series site.
Renault 2.0 series site
Formula 4 (tatus with cosworth 240 hp engine)
Formula 3 series site.
ETC.
Compare most consumable part prices to lets say todays parts list of Pro Mazda .
It's 3 to 4 TIMES cheaper.
And those are major auto manufacturer developed ,very sophisticated and safe race cars.
P.S.
It's all due to much ,much,much larger open wheel market and public interest in open wheel racing there.
We can beat around bush all we want open wheel racing is ghost sport for US general public.
And it is great if someone puts up money to bring latest technology to states for reasonable cost..
ALL POWER TO THEM.
Maris Kazia ,CEO
EuroKraft Inc Racing
Circuito do Sol
2014 Radical SR 3 RSX, 2x Tatuus FA 01
BMW HP2 .BMW K1200 R.Porsche 996 Carerra 4s
According to the Tatuus website they are are suppliers for the cars in Germany, Italy, and the 'North European Zone' and will also take over the English MSA championship next year as well...
Might be able to get some used cars cheap if so
Ty Handke
HMST Inc.
MSV not MSA. MSV is Jonathan Plamer's series. They are replacing the Firman FE design.
He and Ford were in battle to become the F4 series
Last edited by LJennings; 08.08.15 at 12:21 PM. Reason: spelling
Used Tattus chassis won't do you any good as USF4 is a Mygale series.....
It is all becoming ever so much clearer with every day and almost every post.
Hey, maybe the FL15 can be a sub-group ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_4
This probably gives a good bit of correct information as to whom is running which car and engine package
Steve Bamford
Probably better information.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116074/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115898/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112861/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109217/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106219/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115360/
Left one out.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108552/
Another article
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105045/
Trying to find the article where MSV and Ford were in negations with the FIA over tube frame MSV chassis vs a carbon tub design.
Costs
I have heard FIA sets limits on costs for all parts pretty much to keep costs in check. What actual development can be done to these cars, if any at all? Development always costs BiG $'s in my opinion. I know every engineer/crew chief will want the ability to develop the car which is understandable from their point.
This is spec racing from what I can see. That begs the question from my side what happened with FE as I was not around racing when it was introduced or at its peak. I understand the global aspect of this verses SCCA only for FE but if we look at this from a U.S. point of view how does it survive and not end up like FE? Leave out the carbon tub and paddles as a reason for difference as I understand that.
FL cars were introduced last year, which seemed really interesting. I inquired about the cars when the press release came out but received very little info from the promoter. I had a very hard time getting information on the series, cars, track dates so I immediately lost interest. I don't think people should judge the F4 the same way as the FL car/series as I have revived much better information from the start.
Steve Bamford
I believe they not only put strict limits on part costs but in some cases on the cost to run a season. The series has some control over how "spec" the cars are by defining the Type 1, 2 and 3 parts mentioned in the FIA regulations, but I believe typically there is absolutely no room for development. You're adjusting setup and that's about it.
This is a totally different situation than FE, which is a car designed and used only in one minor club class in one country (aside from the fact that the F4 car is WAY more advanced in many respects, especially safety). The F4 cars are used worldwide in many different series, and are, literally, built in the hundreds. They also use many standard automotive parts (like wheel hub units, brake discs) which has been pointed out is similar to how Formula Ford started.
I've said this on several occasions, but production volume is BY FAR the biggest influence on parts cost. I'm guessing that Mygale and Tatuus are able to build their chassis for well under $30k since they are making production runs of 30 cars or more. The Sadev gearbox is used not only in every F4 car (as far as I know) but also in many other race and rally cars, and I think they've made over a thousand of them already. That translates to spares, as well. I can make a wishbone for under $60 if I make 500 of them. And they are leveraging a production volume of many tens of thousands for the standard automotive components.
Even if the USF4 series is a massive success it will still represent only a small percentage of worldwide F4 sales, and Mygale makes cars for several other F4 series, so an owner will never be dependent on the US sales volume to keep costs in check. I'm assuming the USF4 car will be identical to the other Mygale F4 cars, so that also means you'll have a market to sell your used car worldwide.
As much as I try, I really can't see any downside. The only possible issue might be the longevity of the carbon monocoque, and the fact that if you crash hard you will might have to replace a complete tub. But in the volumes they are manufacturing chassis that might not be that expensive.
Nathan
This is spec racing from what I can see. That begs the question from my side what happened with FE as I was not around racing when it was introduced or at its peak. I understand the global aspect of this verses SCCA only for FE but if we look at this from a U.S. point of view how does it survive and not end up like FE? Leave out the carbon tub and paddles as a reason for difference as I understand
Steve, I think that had you been around at the start of FE you'd have been in it. I also think it's still a viable class. Should it have been the new F4? Probably. Besides the cf tub they are stout race cars. I've had guys come out of major shunts and just shrug their shoulders. Basically never felt a thing afterwards. Naysayers will say that we were just another added class that took away from other classes. I think not. FM was the only other spec formula class and they had outdated suspension when they were built! The cars were modern and still 13 seasons later look good. All that being said I understand the allure of this car. Unfortunately I think politics played a large part in keeping FE from being the largest formula class in SCCA. Luckily I feel we can still accomplish that. We've had amazing participation in CenDiv this year.
Competition One Racing
racer6@mchsi.com
I jumped on the FE bandwagon right away. Excellent concept. Piss poor execution. Over a year past my promised delivery date before I sold back the contract. F4 seems promising even though I've always been strongly against diluting open wheel classes. When I started there were basically 4 for amateurs and we had over 100 cars show up for events
Will talk to fella from F4 tomorrow to see what's what .
Price is very tempting.
and spare parts prices as well......
All the best to them
Maris Kazia ,CEO
EuroKraft Inc Racing
Circuito do Sol
2014 Radical SR 3 RSX, 2x Tatuus FA 01
BMW HP2 .BMW K1200 R.Porsche 996 Carerra 4s
http://www.indycar.com/News/2015/08/...-and-Pro-Mazda
Convenient timing. Now what? Do these rich kids from all over the world go play with Indy Car or FRP? Or, does this not do something for them which the Ford Eco Boost car does? Chassis plans seem vague but “This new car will take many features from the worldwide F4 car, but will be built with important safety enhancements, higher performance and more driver tools. We believe it will be an even better trainer for the future stars of the Verizon IndyCar Series." If all we are trying to do here is get young kids attention with carbon tubs and flappy paddles, there is now competition.
-Nick
How many incompatible chassis/engine combinations of F4 or F4 derivatives will we see .....
This is beginning to resemble the Republican race to the White House! I need a scorecard.
USF costs are over 300 k for a season. I doubt FRP is even close to half of that. USF is replacing their current fleet. FRP is opening a new class, while with a good chance of losing an existing class over a few years.http://www.indycar.com/News/2015/08/...-and-Pro-Mazda
Convenient timing. Now what? Do these rich kids from all over the world go play with Indy Car or FRP? Or, does this not do something for them which the Ford Eco Boost car does? Chassis plans seem vague but “This new car will take many features from the worldwide F4 car, but will be built with important safety enhancements, higher performance and more driver tools. We believe it will be an even better trainer for the future stars of the Verizon IndyCar Series." If all we are trying to do here is get young kids attention with carbon tubs and flappy paddles, there is now competition.
As I stated from the start I am not for or against F4 as I love both 1600 and 2000 but I will make sure I have a seat when and if F4 becomes the next competitive series.
Steve Bamford
You aren't telling me anything I (or anyone else who has been around a while) didn't know. But Dan having a competing series, with essentially the same car, presents a problem.
-Nick
I can give 150 - 200 thousand reasons why to choose FRP over USF. Save those dollars for a season or two then come up with 500 plus grand and run Pro Mazda.
I think FRP F4 causes many more issues for USF then you are realizing.
Steve Bamford
If that is the case, why haven't those kids been running with FRP all along?
-Nick
I love the FRP series, filming and just coming out to watch the races when I can.
What happens to F16 or F2 now? Will those die off due to people going to F4? Atlantic does it stay around as well?
Four Championship series seems like a great idea at first but I am not sure how you keep competitors in the other series if another comes around that is cheaper to get into and be competitive.
Especially with the introduction of Formula Lites this year which only has six cars racing at the moment. The rules are important but the bigger questions is getting and keeping competitors in each of the Championship's.
Many reasons as I am sure you can think of. Part of it is being part of the "show" which Indy Car provides but with that comes little track time. USF is spec series as well so everyone is running basic same packages but the best teams always seem to come out on top as we have seen.If that is the case, why haven't those kids been running with FRP all along?
Wings are what kids want to jump into if they can afford to. F4 addresses that at least.
To say they haven't run with FRP is totally wrong as well. F1600 is the entry point for many who have gone to USF, look at the top ten this year and see where many ran last year.
Steve Bamford
Yeah and Indy Car will still have that, and I am sure the FIA will like it as well!
I also know that many of these kids in F1600 go on to USF but they skip F2000CS. Why? Likely for the reasons you pointed out above, which I completely agree with.
In the end, this is a lose/lose. Just muddies the water even more and has talent in several different places rather than 1. I don't see how this helps matters, at all.
-Nick
I can't argue that we sure do not need more classes. Which will go away, I haven't got a clue. Might be, and should be imo, other classes then we are discussing here and relate to Club not Pro.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 08.10.15 at 4:05 PM.
Steve Bamford
For who? Anderson, FRP, Mazda, HPD, Ford, Indycar, race teams, parts vendors, Carl Haas, Mygale, Dallara, QSRE, Elite, Hoosier, Cooper? Lots of winners and losers TBD.
It sure appears the serious amateur racers in the FRP series and the teams/vendors who support those FRP series, are the ones most under threat, if not next year, then in the next few. But it could easily work out for the best and lead to revitalized club racing. Getting rid of the Majors program for a decent schedule of Northeast Nationals would help too.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
It would probably be a really good time for FRP Series racers to make an extra effort to support their events. There are 4 races over 2 weekends left on the schedule. If you are worried about the future of these events for your class, then make that effort to go to their events. Phasing out profitable classes is alot more difficult than phasing out classes that lose money for the promoter.
Next race is NJMP in 3 weeks> Lets see 20 F1600s and 30 F2000s!
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
As a (very) biased bystander. FRP seems to lead.
The F2kCS series started 3+ years before USF2000.
FRP will have tub cars in quasi F4 trim in 2016, USF in 2017.
Could give FRP an edge.
Wright said it was basically as easy as the proverbial "turn of the screw" to ramp up the Eco-boost horsepower.
FRP needs a better schedule to sell to kiddie's fathers; like back in the days when they ran with the 6 Hours at the Glen, and with IMSA prototypes at Mosport. I'm thinking the FRP F4 schedule needs to run different weekends than F2000, F1600, and Atlantic.
(More billable weekends for prep shops)
Of course I always thought Topeka should have hired FRP to put on Club formula car events in the NE to replace Majors.
FRP has another advantage. They are a lean-mean organization that can make fast decisions.
SCCA has to deal with thousands of members fighting change.
USF has to deal with INDYcar politics.
Last edited by Purple Frog; 08.10.15 at 5:59 PM.
Yesterday I was watching an interesting youtube video that David Hobbs and Sam Posey narrated at the Mid-O F5000 race in the early 70s. At one point Sam said, (paraphrase) "Our cars go out of date within 6 months and have to be replaced, some go down to the club racers to use."
I know when I raced bikes many years ago in the chrome-moly days, a frame was used maybe 6 months at the most before it was sold off. Same with top end karts.
Equipment changes in any kind of pro racing is usually often, Just saying.
We just lived through a period of about 15 years in F2000 that the VD chassis was basically the "spec". But a steady-state period of that length is not normal in racing. We were lucky. In the past 3 years Citation and now Mygale have basically moved the ball forward away from the VD "spec".
A couple things that I think should be considered for the future of FRP.
1. I doubt that F4 will ever grow to the point that it can replace both FF and FC.
2. FF and FC have been trying to serve 2 very distinct customer bases; the majority of armature / hobbyist racers who want a better program than SCCA can offer and the young lions with visions of glory in their eyes and the hopes of a future in auto racing.
3. With F4 the young lions can play in a class by them selves and the rest of the drivers can continue to play in FF/FC.
4. While the cost of brand new equipment for FF and FC will be significantly more than F4, the cost of racing will be the same or most likely much less.
5. Unlike F4 where the cost to play at all will be fixed and on the par with running brand new FF and FC with a top prep shop, the cost to play in FF and FC can be very modest. The trick here is to make the program more attractive to the guys who run mid pack to the back of the pack. Maybe more divisions than just masters. Or what ever does the trick to attract some of the drivers who have dropped out and some who have not participated.
In short, F4 can be a good thing for everyone involved with FRP if everyone wants it to be. Maybe F4 will be what FA has not been.
SCCA Pro has announced THEY are doing a F4 series for 2016.
Curiousier and curiousier said the church mouse to Alice......
Last edited by Michael Rand; 08.10.15 at 7:44 PM. Reason: cocktail hour....
Ralph Stedman would be hard pressed to do this justice....
But he'd do Trump to a T !
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
