Well done Reid. I know that "Classes and Taxes" rhymes, but a more timely reference should have been made to "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan"Originally Posted by reidhazelton
Well done Reid. I know that "Classes and Taxes" rhymes, but a more timely reference should have been made to "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan"
Damn, you guys sure are jaded about the way SCCA operates. Surely they'll do the only thing that makes any sense and choose the same Mygale car so all the newly purchased cars can be run in multiple series, right? Maybe I'm just very naive and underestimating how boneheaded people can be but I can't even imagine anyone deciding anything different.
Obviously, you haven't been around the Club long enough!
I also think that Dave (DFR) has it right. If there ends up being multiple chassis (which aren't allowed to cross-pollinate), then not only does that limit where they could be raced, but also where they could be sold down the road.
Seek a common chassis.
John D.
Think about the chassis issue this way.
If all the series choose different chassis which of course they will just to be stubborn and stop any cross series racing. When they all fold due to the fact they chose those different chassis selling only 7-10 cars each. The club then inherits all these F4 cars of different makes/motors.
Then all the club has to do is equalize the engine packages through restrictors and ECU programs maybe even an engine table. These are all things the club has a LOT of experience with. Plus they will then choose a spec tire to go with it which will arrive shortly after the new spec FF tire in 2037.
The best thing out of all this is once they all get dumped together in the end it won't be another spec class it would actually have some variety to it. Open up dampers and Aero and we have the new F2000/FC car.
Wait wait!
If in it's original form F4 kills FF then in the later club form kills FC then we will have nothing left and the FIA will have taken over North America!!!! Pretty soon we will all have to join the Canadian Formula 3 Championship as well!!
Previously the series were kept apart by tires simply because people didn't want to have to change setups. There was no real difference in tire saving by going to a radial it simply kept the pro guys from going club racing for the most part. Unless Formula 4 as it is called is actually a formula for car building like FC or FF there won't be parity or any meaningful crossover. Given there is already discussion for different power options I don't see crossover happening.
I don't understand, why would anyone want to stop cross-series racing? All that does is keep the fields small and make everyone less money. What possible benefit could there be in preventing people from going racing just because they normally race in someone else's series? Maybe they'll join a race in your series when it happens to go through their hometown. Maybe they'll like it and stick around. Maybe they have a buttload of money and want to run both series at once, which could be done with some schedule cooperation. Tires I can understand because not using radial tires in a supposedly cutting edge professional motorsport in 2015 seems kind of silly but with this? It's a brand new car with all the latest whizbang features you could want.
Two simple reasons:
If I am a regular participant with series A and race a few weeks before an "A" event with series "B" and crash, the odds are greatly increased I don't make the "A" series event.
There is usually only so much money in most annual budgets to go racing so who do I spend it with.
Sure that probably describes a lot of people but I don't see how preventing them from even the possibility of running in the other series makes any difference. They're going to do their own thing anyway, you aren't losing entries. Plus what about all the other side benefits such as more cars = cheaper to make, more spares availability, easier to sell a car when someone's going to move up to the next level (which means a new competitor that might join YOUR series instead next year), and so on.
And yes, I realize I'm preaching to the choir here. Just can't grasp what the viewpoint of someone who'd want the SCCA to have a different car would be.
This is a multi million market with different business groups competing for market share. It is no different than Verizon vs Sprint or Apple vs Google. You lock in customers, suppliers, and product and lock everybody else out.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
I definitely understand what the car manufacturers will get out of competing for a big new contract that will mean selling a lot of new cars and locking in a lot of new parts customers but what would the SCCA be getting on their side of the deal if they went with someone other than Mygale? Is their primary goal "get the most entries possible and create a new long lasting class that will continue to get lots of entries in the future" or something else? I can't see what any other manufacturer would have to put on the table there unless they are doing something like making their cars heavily discounted or offering a lot of media coverage, prize money, and spares for winners or something.
Which is possible I suppose, but given my limited knowledge of how tiny low-volume racecar-specific manufacturers operate seems a bit unlikely. If it was Ford vs. Mazda building the cars the Apple vs. Google analogy would make a bit more sense to me.
We already know that the Road to Indy cars and the FRP cars will be different as the Andersen cars will have the MZR and the FRP cars will have the Ecoboost engine. So, no cross over there.
Who knows what the SCCA will do, but they are too late to the game. They don't have a chassis, engine provider, or a schedule. FRP already has a customer base to work with and prep shops to talk to. They also have a known, respected product. The SCCA has none of that. This won't work without buy in from the prep shops. I can't imagine who they are going to try to target or who is going to actually sign up for it. It's already August and they have nothing but a vague announcement that they are probably going to attempt F4. Maybe they were trying to not let FRP and Andersen get too much of the spotlight?
I will be surprised if the SCCA really manages to get something on the track in 2016. The only way I can imagine them pulling it off is if they just give them a stand alone run group in the Majors races. I doubt that they are going to find them track time with PWC. Maybe on Trans-Am weekends?
It looks like "silly season" has started earlier and is even sillier than ever before. So far it looks like 2016 is a good year for me to focus on club racing.
Fair enough.
What I really was contesting was the idea that it was an either/or contest. As a stepping stone, FRP seems to be undisputedly relevant *for F1600*. I won't argue whether or not that will still hold true for F4, but I will note that USF2000 just announced a $200k scholarship that would be awarded to the winner of a shootout between a handful of "road to the road to Indy" series champions (to steal Robin Schute's wonderful line). I can't quite tell if the FRP F1600 series is one of those feeder series or not. The USF2000 page seems to indicate that it is, but the FRP F1600 page doesn't have any such news. Again keep in mind I refer to F1600 not F4.
Scca & frp
I strongly urge, beg, plead, however you want to put it...for SCCA/FRP to continue to work together to use a common chassis/engine package.
Going in a different direction & no cross over will not help ANYONE. It will not help drivers as it will have limited fields in both potential series. It will not help prep shops as they will not likely have both cars & thus only give them one series to run. It will not help either promoter as they will split their driver count.
This is a not good for Club, Pro, whatever other racing series you wish to discuss.
An ideal scenario would be that all cars run some package, USF, SCCA & FRP. USF is a ways away from making a decision so that won't work for 2016 so lets simply forget that. Mazda engine is more money then what the Ecoboost from Ford will be so that is another reason to forget it.
We need the SCCA & FRP to run the same package. I don't care how it needs to get done but I have contacted both to plead with them to work it out. Going in different directions, which it seems they are now, is simply wrong IMO.
I urge everyone to speak with them both to try to get them offering the same package. If they do so they could have a tiger by the tail! Prep shops could run in both series as well as independents. It would make total sense, maybe I am missing something but the path SCCA has decided upon being different then FRP (which they haven't finalized yet) is not going to help racing.
Why can't good business sense cross over into racing?
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 08.12.15 at 9:28 AM.
Steve Bamford
What if SCCA or Anderson puts forth a better package? If you really believe what you are saying then why not cancel the order then for your new car and wait and see what else is put forth and then make that decision based on a common good for everyone? The easiest way to make crossover or continuity happen if from the purchasing end not the sanctioning bodies mandating things. If 3 or four packages are presented and everyone only purchase one problem solved. If you jump the gun and buy the first thing out the door you exacerbate the problem you want to solve. What is the rush there are plenty of cars to race and plenty of time to bring this idea in properly.
Anderson's series does not offer me the track time I want/need to continue to improve. As stated before I have done those high profile races and while fun the track time is too limited. So it won't matter what package they come up with & will likely go a different direct to ensure no cross over.
As for SCCA/FRP they can make it work but that needs help from the racers.
As for cancelling a car, I have already committed my word & need to stick with it. I can always sell it to Mexico, South America or other series if they go in a different direction. I am ok doing that.
Steve Bamford
It would be much better to support FRP by doing the remaining events, committing to supporting them next year, and showing them that F1600 racers want them to continue to provide the Series.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
SCCA Pro Racing
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SCCA Pro Racing Staff
President: Robert Clarke
Vice President/General Manager: Steve Oseth
I've spoken to them both, up to others now if they are interested.
Steve Bamford
As I see it, the main reason SCCA would not do a package similar to FRP or Anderson is because then you can buy your package elsewhere, other than SCCA. I mean come on, how do you expect SCCA to make money selling cars then? If they make Coke, you can only get that from them - where you can buy cola anywhere.
To be FIA Certified, which they are saying they will be, there is no money for them to keep as the cars costs are kept in check by FIA. I could be wrong but that is what many have been mentioning about these cars so it keeps things affordable. FIA has limits on prices that can be charged to racers.
Manufactures may offer incentives to run their packages but I believe that should come out of manufactures advertising budgets and not come out of the pockets of racers if they are trying to build a cost effective series.
Steve Bamford
Well that's a big plus. I can't see why you wouldn't want to have a cross over then, especially for SCCA. SCCA will get far more benefit from having the same package as FRP than FPR would.
Rumors of a major karting organization jumping on the F4 bandwagon as well....
F4 is a 1000% winner. Modern everything and less expensive than the FF/FC dinosaurs not to mention you can drive it in multiple places around the globe. (go back and read the last sentence again). This is what road racing needs as a jump start with kids. All the old farts (myself included) want to keep racing the outdated stuff.....go right ahead but don't try to sh*t on this series because you're worried about diluting your "class" or killing your car's value. This is a good thing.... embrace the 21st century haters!!
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
Whoah, any hint as to which one? We're engaging in gossip anyway, there's no reason to just post half of a rumor!
WKA, SKUSA, IKF in that order are my guesses
These karting groups already have staffing, organization, nationwide footprint, and established relationships with insurers; not to mention the target audience is already in their organization. They have to be thinking why loose our clients to other groups, just add a rung on our ladder.
Nothing wrong with that, let them have at it. Let's just try to have a North American accepted chassis and engine so you can run in whichever series you decide.
Steve Bamford
Some have a global foot print...
Yes Mike they are well structured and financed. I dropped by Diz's track a few weeks back for the SKUSA Summer Nationals and understood they had over 400 entries. The lot was completely full on Sunday.
The real question in my mind is who is the target customer for these cars? Aspiring young racers, club racers or semi-pro racers looking for a move to a different car... To me this car needs to put new butts in seats and not just re-shuffle the deck to be successful.
Last edited by John LaRue; 08.12.15 at 2:49 PM.
True, but do they have the track dates? You're not going to run F4 or any other winged open-wheeler at Pat's Acres, nor very many other local kart venues.
Do they have the safety experience? Open-wheel cars ain't karts.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
IKF races on the big road tracks too.
Another way to do things would be to race at circuits that have both a road track and a sprint track which is not uncommon, or set up a temporary sprint track in the pits like SKUSA at Vegas.
SKUSA Supernats are over 3 months away. Registration opened yesterday at $495 each and they have almost 300 entries already.
Definitely the target demo and the budgets.
I guessed WKA as my first choice simply because of their size and track relationships.
I asked this question before. If the target demographic is kids, this karting group is onto something. They obviously would have a HUGE advantage here.
-Nick
Nick, Based on budgets of the top programs (SKUSA in particular) F4 would very likely be a lateral move if not a step backwards. For others it would be over the top. This is one of the problems I see - ok we want to target the "karters" but which ones? They are more diverse than we are in the formula car world in the way of budgets, equipment and capital...not to mention there are various forms of karting to consider.
Sort of off topic, but worth noting how about a $50,000 to win kart race? When I ran PKA events in the early 80's we would routinely run for a $10,000 purse.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-I...07353082774825
Right now the target audience is whomever is willing to fill the grid which I believe there will be many. This address many of the concerns Reid brought forward on his FF Cost thread a short while ago. Why does it have to be just karting kids? Why not some Club racers as well who can buy a car for under 60 grand and run it for little dollars? Development of these cars is limited to set up. That alone saves tens of thousands.
Steve Bamford
Steve, I think you are quick to assume that many people will be so quick to dump their current car and buy a new one to start all over again. Speaking of individuals here, not teams. When I saw that new car the other weekend, I guess it looked cool, but I would need to know much more about what the plans are before I plop down 60K and relegate my car to storage. When I asked the question of how long these prices will be fixed for, on the car/tub/spares/etc. The answer I got was, "we don't know". Well, that's a BIG variable which could change the entire complexity of this endeavor. I also am not so sure that these cars will be any less expensive to run than our current cars...... maybe that is just me.
I agree with John, this car needs to get new butts in seats, not just shuffle current drivers into new cars. The selling points I heard that weekend at Pitt were; carbon tubs, flappy paddles and FIA super license points. Three things myself as a club racer could give a rats ass about. But a young kid who has fire in his eyes to make it to F1 and dad thinks he has the money to get him there, now that makes sense. Which is why I think this appeals more to the kids than the club guys like myself. As this works itself out, I will watch and see and if it starts gaining traction and I need to have one, well you can then call me a follower. But as of right now, I will keep my car and continue to race it where and as much as I can. And if I had a preference on where to race it, I would 100% choose FRP, so I wish them the best and will continue to support the series the best I can as long as they have a place for me in the paddock with my old beater.
-Nick
And I will be right next to you with my old beaters and new beater as well
You're right Nick, FRP is a well run organization & fun to be in the paddock. We need more Club racers out to experience it.
Steve Bamford
I have been hesitant to weight in on this.
As I see the decline in the formula car fields,I don't believe we have a car problem we have a participation problem.Over the last several years we have seen less cars and more time and expense for the competitor.If they want a new car they will produce it and wait and see how many the can sell.There are still a lot of 2Ltr cars out there and 1600.Honda sold over a 100 kits,Where are all those cars?.There are lot of reasons why we don't get the full fields of cars.I myself believe we could shorten the weekends and try to attract people back to the series.I have spoken to several folks that say the current Frp weekends are just way to long and that adds to expense for everyone.I don't believe it makes the racing any less competitive.I hope that with this new car we don't end up with 3 or 4 different series fighting over it.I hate to say it but we (except for me)are all getting older and we don't see the influx of young independent racers anymore.
I also don't believe the club has any business getting involved with another formula car.
Lets see,how many classes we have now Fa,Fb,Fc,Ff,Fe,Fs,Fv.I may have missed 1 or 2 but I hope you see my point.I want to see open wheel racing continue,but from what I have seen in the last several years,that remains to be seen.
Yir
Tim MinorFc88
Tim Minor
Not to 'go there'....but does anyone else see the irony in the 'devalued' Honda complaints?
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