Formula Race Promotions Launching new FIA Spec Formula 4 car

[Jnovak]

Jay, what haven't you tried to convince me to buy through these years!

I just want you to race Jim. You are a very good driver and you should be racing!

If I had the bucks we would do a 2 car team.

[Ben Beasley]

That is one nice thing about spec cars....driver size up to
6'-6" 250lbs.

[blackbmwk1200r]

Google F1600 and their website comes up on top.
Google F2000 and their website comes up 3rd after two guns.
Their media guy is awesome and definitely one of the positives in this mess.

Google "Formula Race Car" and after 2 wikipedia links you get Formula Race Car Club of America (FRCCA). Google "Formula Car Racing" and they are 2nd. They have maintained these results for at least 5 years or more. Name is important but what else are you guys doing?

[HazelNut]

Come on Brendan, bored? The answer has been right under your nose in the very next session. Buy a Spectrum, Mygale, whatever and come run with us in F1600 which is anything but boring. It's more like the best racing in my 25 years in FF. F4 could very well develope into a great thing, but F1600 is there right now.

Bored to death mike. Time for a change of scenery.

[nulrich]

I think F4 is absolutely the right answer for pro and semi-pro series. The cars are inexpensive, very safe, and should attract new blood to the ladder series. The question is whether they are appropriate for club racers. I have three thoughts along that line:

• A carbon tub, especially built in quantity, is the cheapest way to provide a very strong safety cell around the driver. However, it can be difficult or impossible to repair when crashed hard. And even if the damage is minor, you don't want your average car owner or local fiberglass shop doing the repairs. How are sanctioning bodies going to ensure that chassis still meet the safety standards after being damaged or repaired? How do they handle this with Atlantics? How much will a complete replacement tub cost?
• What is the longevity of a carbon tub these days? It used to be a serious issue since the epoxy matrix does degrade over time and structures become "softer" and less rigid. Also, the weak point of any carbon tub is typically attachment points and insert bonds, which can loosen or elongate over time. And monocoques that push the design envelope (like early F1 tubs) are more likely to see degradation, so conservative design can mitigate the issue. Has Mygale (or others) addressed this?
• There has been a lot of stability in FF/FC over the last fifteen years or so. And although some of the newer cars have become (possibly) slightly faster in the last two years, a talented driver with a good team continues to be able to win races in a 1999 Van Diemen. How often will the F4 chassis designs be updated? In classes like F3 there have been about five year cycles, and when the rules and chassis are updated they often have a "B" class for the older cars. Amortizing a $60k car over five years for a pro team is not really an issue, but for a club racer who owns his own car it could be a problem.

Of course, this might just return us to the old model, where pro teams buy new cars, run them for a few years, then sell them to club racers. That could result in a steady supply of five year old F4 cars selling at very reasonable prices starting in 2020 or so. Unfortunately, it won't work especially well if we have three or four different pro series, each with 8-12 cars on the grid and all using different chassis and engines.

Nathan

[Kazis31]

Replacement tub 14k euros

[Steve Bamford]

Replacement tub 14k euros

How does this compare with replacement costs for tub frames that have been damaged beyond repair? I know of two cars this year that had some pretty serious frame damage and not sure if they were repaired or replaced.

[Kazis31]

More of course.
new frame is probably 5 to 8k .
I do think it is easier to total steel frame than modern carbon tub.
FIA mandates all manufacturers to comply with strict carbon tub testing before letting car out of factory.

[S Lathrop]

There has been a FIA crash test on a tube frame chassis. The results were surprising. The frame had a Dallara F3 nose cone attached for the test because that part had passed the crash test previously.

The chassis yielded under the loads more than a carbon tub is allowed. But, unlike a carbon tub, the tube frame was undamaged during the test. A carbon tub does not survive the test.

For obvious reasons the tube frame was not subjected to the penetration tests. But that is an issue that can be addressed in a separate structure.

The absolutely worst injury to any driver I ever worked with was in a carbon tub. The primary cause of the injury was the failure of the nose cone mountings. The nose cone was not original to the car and was not manufactures by the manufacturer of the car. Many of the injuries to drivers in tube frame cars are because the nose cones / nose boxes are inadequately attached to the frames and may not be up to the task of protecting the frame and driver.

[holmberg]

The chassis yielded under the loads more than a carbon tub is allowed. But, unlike a carbon tub, the tube frame was undamaged during the test. A carbon tub does not survive the test.

Steve, what does it mean for a chassis to yield to the force but not be damaged? I'm trying to picture that, and I'm not coming up with anything...

[John LaRue]

Glass shatters, plastic deforms.

[R. Pare]

He means that it deflected under the load much more than the plastic tub did, but returned to it's original state without damage when the loads were removed.

One of the issues for club racers with CF cars will be ( as is already) the long-term structural integrity of their cars. Tubs can start delaminating internally, where you cannot visually see what is happening, and can only be detected by special ultra-sonic devices. The "quarter test" - where you tap the tub with something like a quarter and listen for loose CF layers - is only good for tubs that are damned close to falling apart already, and cannot detect small areas of internal delamination.

At the expense and technical expertise level that it takes to keep a CF tub going over many years, I cannot see how introducing more of them into the hands of club-level racers is good for the long term health of the club - or in some cases, the health of the tub owner.

[Kazis31]

So because carbon fiber tub is less safe that tubular frame ALL FIA pro open wheel
cars are carbon fiber tub based?

[DFR Dave Freitas]

New bare VD frame, as of last week, is $12,050. Carbon tub may have some drawbacks, but also has advantages, nothing in life is perfect.

[S Lathrop]

Steve, what does it mean for a chassis to yield to the force but not be damaged? I'm trying to picture that, and I'm not coming up with anything...

A tube frame chassis is a big spring. Compared to a carbon tub, a tube frame is more elastic and there fore less rigid. Another way of saying it is the tube frame will bend way more that a carbon tub before it actually is damaged in the process.

In the crash test, the tube frame flexed more than the carbon tub. But it did not yield in that it returned to its original shape when the pressure was released. The tube frame could take repeated loads in the crash test without failing. The carbon tub will not take repeated loads.

After the first test, the carbon tub is measureable less stiff. It has in fact yielded. There is a standard for how much the tub can yield and still pass the test. But it can not do the test a second time.

[S Lathrop]

So because carbon fiber tub is less safe that tubular frame ALL FIA pro open wheel
cars are carbon fiber tub based?

You obviously did not read my original post very carefully.

There are 2 parts of the test. The tube frame withstood the crash portion of the test. It was not tested for penetration protection for obvious reason it will fail that standard because of the open spaces.

The dramatically greater rigidity of a carbon tub is the real driving force behind using carbon tubs. The safety was a side benefit and special rules were added to improve that feature of a carbon tub.

[R. Pare]

So because carbon fiber tub is less safe that tubular frame ALL FIA pro open wheel
cars are carbon fiber tub based?

No one has said that they are less safe. They can be - and usually are - more safe IF designed and built properly. Their problems they have that tube frames don't, is the inability to easily see an integrity issue, and the inability to repair as easily, as well as the lack of long term life compared to a tube frame.

[reidhazelton]

There has been a lot of stability in FF/FC over the last fifteen years or so.Nathan

Uh, what?

[Purple Frog]

PittRace Major this weekend. Not one FC entered.

[Steve Bamford]

PittRace Major this weekend. Not one FC entered.

How many F4's?

[Steve Bamford]

PittRace Major this weekend. Not one FC entered.

If you look at the overall participation I would really say SCCA Majors is dead, or at least this event was not successful. There wasn't any FM's entered either. I count 1 FF car that raced. There were run groups with only 8 cars total. Even Spec Miata which I am used to seeing huge fields was right around 20 cars total, same for SRF.

F4 isn't causing this and isn't likely to change it.

Two weeks ago we had right around 20 FC and around 20 FF's race there with FRP.

[cooleyjb]

If you look at the overall participation I would really say SCCA Majors is dead, or at least this event was not successful. There wasn't any FM's entered either. I count 1 FF car that raced. There were run groups with only 8 cars total. Even Spec Miata which I am used to seeing huge fields was right around 20 cars total, same for SRF.

F4 isn't causing this and isn't likely to change it.

Two weeks ago we had right around 20 FC and around 20 FF's race there with FRP.

I wouldn't use one of the last majors of the year as a bellweather for anything. Most people weren't going to go the month before the runoffs and risk the car getting bent. The only people I know who went were trying to get easy points for runoffs qualification or hunting majors title for northeast.

As for open wheel participation in SCCA. That is because of FRP. There product is better and has killed much of the open wheel scene in SCCA.

[John Robinson II]

As for open wheel participation in SCCA. That is because of FRP. There product is better and has killed much of the open wheel scene in SCCA.

not in the SE. There has been a recent upsurge of participation in FF and not due to the runoffs being at Daytona. Also, I don't think there are very many club racers actively participating in the pro series. Looking at the results from Mid ohio, there is only a few names that I recognize as club racers, and most of them are in the masters class.

john

[jchracer]

Pardon me if ths has already been answered here but this is a looooooong thread.

Are the Crawford built cars that are running Formula Lites this year going to be the FIA sanctioned F4 cars for the future in the USA?

[rickb99]

If you look at the overall participation I would really say SCCA Majors is dead.....

OOPS! The below is in error. Just found out the Northwest SCCA web site is down for some kind of big maintenance. SORRY!

Hmmm might be worse then that!

Well, this is a tragedy. I just tried to log in to the Northwest Region of the SCCA's web site to see what the turn out was for the 2015 Major (I'm sure it was around 100 cars or less).

BUT what I found was the web site is GONE!! Something tells me the NW region is merging with Oregon. Been rumored for a while but I didn't think it would ever happen.

[Steve Bamford]

Pardon me if ths has already been answered here but this is a looooooong thread.

Are the Crawford built cars that are running Formula Lites this year going to be the FIA sanctioned F4 cars for the future in the USA?

SCCA Pro has not announced which chassis they are going with as of yet but that would be one that is likely under consideration.

[ccoffin]

Hmmm might be worse then that!

Well, this is a tragedy. I just tried to log in to the Northwest Region of the SCCA's web site to see what the turn out was for the 2015 Major (I'm sure it was around 100 cars or less).

BUT what I found was the web site is GONE!! Something tells me the NW region is merging with Oregon. Been rumored for a while but I didn't think it would ever happen.

That's odd. Majors at pacific had about 60 entries this year. Icscc at pacific a few weeks ago had.... Wait for it..... 171

[Lotus7]

SCCA Pro has not announced which chassis they are going with as of yet but that would be one that is likely under consideration.

Current F-Lites chassis with F4-mandated 160hp vs current 230(?) might prove disappointing given it's current struggle to match FC performance.

[Steve Bamford]

Current F-Lites chassis with F4-mandated 160hp vs current 230(?) might prove disappointing given it's current struggle to match FC performance.

They could build a different chassis and have the capabilities to.

[allof6]

Current F-Lites chassis with F4-mandated 160hp vs current 230(?) might prove disappointing given it's current struggle to match FC performance.

If I am not mistaken the Formula Lites package price far exceeds the F4 price as well. Not sure how well that will work.

[FrankRizzo]

If I am not mistaken the Formula Lites package price far exceeds the F4 price as well. Not sure how well that will work.

According to the website:

PRICING

Turn Key/Race Ready
$120,900 USD

So, yeah, TWICE the price.

[Kazis31]

This is one LOOOOONGGG ASSSSS thread............

Let's talk about something else.
how about them Dogers.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This is one LOOOOONGGG ASSSSS thread............

Let's talk about something else.
how about them Dogers.

You mean like Pinto v Zetec ?

[Lotus7]

This is one LOOOOONGGG ASSSSS thread............

Let's talk about something else.
how about them Dogers.

While this thread itself may not influence the outcome, there's a good chance the SUBJECT of it will significantly affect those of us who make our living in this sport.

[stonebridge20]

You mean like Pinto v Zetec ?

Boring!

How about Honda v Ford ?

[Jnovak]

Here is my comment. Open wheel racing in the USA IS TOTALLY F**KED UP. Just too many classes and too many series. Just an old mans opinion.

[Wren]

I thought that the Formula Lites car was an old F3 Lola tub from the Russell school?

How would you like to be one of the 4 or so people who dropped $120k on an FL and now you are probably going to have to spend money to have a car that they will sell for ~$60k?

[FrankRizzo]

I thought that the Formula Lites car was an old F3 Lola tub from the Russell school?

How would you like to be one of the 4 or so people who dropped $120k on an FL and now you are probably going to have to spend money to have a car that they will sell for ~$60k?

Again, from the website:

CRAWFORD FL15
Carbon composite monocoque built to FIA F3
2014 technical regulations
Composite bodywork
Front and rear roll over structure

And yeah, I feel for them. "You're going to need to make a bunch of changes so that you can race FAIRLY with all these new folks who just spent HALF what you spent on your car..."

[Steve Bamford]

I thought that the Formula Lites car was an old F3 Lola tub from the Russell school?

How would you like to be one of the 4 or so people who dropped $120k on an FL and now you are probably going to have to spend money to have a car that they will sell for ~$60k?

Again, from the website:

CRAWFORD FL15
Carbon composite monocoque built to FIA F3
2014 technical regulations
Composite bodywork
Front and rear roll over structure

And yeah, I feel for them. "You're going to need to make a bunch of changes so that you can race FAIRLY with all these new folks who just spent HALF what you spent on your car..."

Before I write this, I think SCCA Pro & FRP should figure out to be running the same package.

But...here is what I would do if I was going with the Crawford chassis for F4 and thought about it from a business perspective...have Crawford create a new chassis for F4 & run the program based on that. Keep the FL15 & figure out how to up the horse power & make FL15 the 2nd rung in the ladder so you have a stepping stone all run under the same organization. $125,000.00 for a 2nd step after F4 at $60,000.00 for a car is not bad.

I am sure others smarter then myself have already considered this.

[aims20]

I thought that the Formula Lites car was an old F3 Lola tub from the Russell school?

How would you like to be one of the 4 or so people who dropped $120k on an FL and now you are probably going to have to spend money to have a car that they will sell for ~$60k?

Their old show car was a Dallara F3. The FL15 is a Crawford Tub.