Car Costs - 1984 to 2015

[Daryl DeArman]

My prediction is collectively the old guard (whoever that is) will not support any significant changes and 'we' will continue to erode until the point is reached where something painful must be done. Once that happens the "old guard" will have a Fit They will then try to come up with feasible solutions to the problems discussed but not acted upon for years. Too little too late.

Thinking a bit outside the SCCA box.

Why not entertain the thought of making certain open wheel classes, true novice classes? One where once certain criteria are met you must move on to another class? Folks may not be so quick to sink big money into a car/class they won't be able to race x years in the future. It will also keep newbies from getting discouraged and hanging up the helmet. The cost of entry could be much cheaper too with used cars always being on the market. Newbies can't fully exploit the benefits of all the whiz-bang bits---having the latest and greatest won't be too critical.

Something like once you win a Divisional Championship, 2 Majors or podium at the RunOffs or Sprints you can no longer race that class beginning the following season. Three seasons max in the class and you can still race it, but just not for points or awards. It would shake things up, but the running costs in those few selected to be labeled "novice" classes would decrease.

Flame away, it's okay. Wouldn't be the first sucky unpopular idea I've had. Just trying to come up with a solution instead of continuing to point out the problems.

[reidhazelton]

Just trying to come up with a solution instead of continuing to point out the problems.

[John LaRue]

If you want to control costs on specific items then simply impose a claiming rule. List price plus...

[BLS]

Build it and they will come:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=fpeI2mA5X5U

Funny accents however...

Low cost is the basic requirement to increase the participant level. High cost will exclude most of any demographic you care to name.

[bobmelvin]

I had the same thought. Boy, would that stir things up.

Let's come up with some prices by class. Now we're talking free market economics.

Have at it boys.

Bob Melvin

[Daryl DeArman]

When I raced roundy-round they instituted a claimer on shocks. We raced the same cars on dirt, clay, and pavement. Sometimes as the headliner (great dirt track conditions) sometimes as the undercard which meant basically mud-packin' as fast as we could muster. Bottom line was the better funded teams started playing with some expensive shocks they could adjust on a whim. The claimer rule was implemented....$100/shock. Now those well-funded teams accomplished the same advantage by having 10 sets of $100/ea shocks each uniquely valved they could swap out on the pre-grid. Didn't solve anything and just made it more expensive to be competitive.

[dsmithwc04]

My prediction is collectively the old guard (whoever that is) will not support any significant changes and 'we' will continue to erode until the point is reached where something painful must be done. Once that happens the "old guard" will have a Fit They will then try to come up with feasible solutions to the problems discussed but not acted upon for years. Too little too late.

Thinking a bit outside the SCCA box.

Why not entertain the thought of making certain open wheel classes, true novice classes? One where once certain criteria are met you must move on to another class? Folks may not be so quick to sink big money into a car/class they won't be able to race x years in the future. It will also keep newbies from getting discouraged and hanging up the helmet. The cost of entry could be much cheaper too with used cars always being on the market. Newbies can't fully exploit the benefits of all the whiz-bang bits---having the latest and greatest won't be too critical.

Something like once you win a Divisional Championship, 2 Majors or podium at the RunOffs or Sprints you can no longer race that class beginning the following season. Three seasons max in the class and you can still race it, but just not for points or awards. It would shake things up, but the running costs in those few selected to be labeled "novice" classes would decrease.

Flame away, it's okay. Wouldn't be the first sucky unpopular idea I've had. Just trying to come up with a solution instead of continuing to point out the problems.

The biggest problem we have is not enough new drivers. So how will taking competitors out of slower classes help?

[Daryl DeArman]

The biggest problem we have is not enough new drivers. So how will taking competitors out of slower classes help?

We told the successful ones they had to move on to another class....keeping the slower classes more newbie friendly, both on the competition and financial level. Those that had some success aren't likely to pack up and quit racing. They'll move up in classes or decide racing for points/awards isn't why they do it.

BMX does this. Motocross does this. When I raced karts a National Championship or a TOP 3 at a pro race with a purse over X amount (I don't remember $ amount) earned you a lifetime gold plate w/black numbers. Those with gold plates weren't permitted to race for points or awards in something like 15 of the sprint classes.

[gcoffin]

Soooo I have watched this grow for a while without comment, but here goes

1. I have never....never....been to a club race in 25 plus years were new cars made up a significant portion of the field.

2. With the exception of the Sports Renault and the DB1 in the 80's I have never seen a new car make an impact.

3. The CPI is relavent wrt the price of meat and rent....not new race cars, which points one and two would argue are irrelevant to club racing.

4. 25 years ago you could get a used Reynard FC for 10k, now they are 12k so the initial cap outlay has gone down relative to the CPI, and the performance has gone up.....go figure....no one buys new cars.....so the price does not matter.

5. Maybe I am getting forgetful but I do not remember club racing demographics being heavily populated by 20 something folks, no doubt we are aging.....but I could be wrong

[alangbaker]

Build it and they will come:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=fpeI2mA5X5U

Funny accents however...

Low cost is the basic requirement to increase the participant level. High cost will exclude most of any demographic you care to name.

I think it is interesting to note that in this allegedly "low cost" example, the very first in-car shot shows a car with a steering wheel that has shift lights... ..built right into it! Not to mention the evident buttons, etc.

Oh, and it's a "Formula Vee" with some sort of pushrod front suspension. What?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

You can run your open wheel car with AROSC. They used to get a couple of guys with FM's to come out and play. I ran my FF with them my first two events after a complete ground-up as it was cheap and tons of track time....much more productive than a race day...and if all went to hell in a hand-basket I wouldn't be out much.

That's the Alpha Romeo club with only a couple Alpha's

I'll look at their events. But considering there is some 20+ operators occupying the tracks, and only 1 allows open wheel, point made...

[TimH]

Flame away, it's okay. Wouldn't be the first sucky unpopular idea I've had. Just trying to come up with a solution instead of continuing to point out the problems.

I'm on the wrong end of the country to know, but hasn't the FRCCA had some success doing exactly what you propose?

[Dennis McCarthy]

I'm on the wrong end of the country to know, but hasn't the FRCCA had some success doing exactly what you propose?

FRCCA has been around for many years with a very simple low cost entry level car and catered to formula cars. Despite the fact that they are a good group of guys who have always been user friendly, it has never really taken off as most people who start and stay in racing long term move on to more sophisticated cars and different sanctioning bodies. Racing is like crack, people always want better, faster, whizzier, which usually equates with newer or you simply go vintage racing. FRCCA is tested proof that building a low cost dumbed down formula car isn't the answer to filling grids....

[Spengo]

Build it and they will come:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=fpeI2mA5X5U

Funny accents however...

Low cost is the basic requirement to increase the participant level. High cost will exclude most of any demographic you care to name.

That looks like a blast. If fvee racing looked like that here I would have one already.

[BLS]

Oh, and it's a "Formula Vee" with some sort of pushrod front suspension. What?

Pushrod to activate the shocks - VW torsion bar spring still used. FST cars here have the same option.

That looks like a blast. If fvee racing looked like that here I would have one already.

A few races like that occurred here last year, FV only grouping.

My only point, lower cost cars will produce more on track competition and really, only FV and FF (with some cost restrictions) can fulfill that. The current models and ongoing costs are simply pricing interested people out of the market.

It is clear the current SCCA model is not a long term solution.

[Daryl DeArman]

FRCCA is tested proof that building a low cost dumbed down formula car isn't the answer to filling grids....

Well whatever the answer is, SCCA hasn't found it. FF and FV were the highest open wheel participation classes in 2014 majors and they didn't even have 1/3'd of the entries that SM and SRF managed to get.

More sophisticated open wheel cars aren't the answer either.

Cheap(er), close(r) competition is the answer to healthy fields. Who cares whether the car translates to other professional formula classes anyways? The extremely, extremely small number of folks who will pass through SCCA ranks on their way to the big show shouldn't affect our decisions anyways. One, they are extremely small in number. Two, they won't be in SCCA long.

[gcoffin]

Spot on Daryl anyone holding their breath waiting for SCCA and the Majors program to come up with a solution will suffer brain damage in 8 minutes.

Just like politics club racing is local. The solution is local....on the regional level

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The extremely, extremely small number of folks who will pass through SCCA ranks on their way to the big show shouldn't affect our decisions anyways. One, they are extremely small in number. Two, they won't be in SCCA long.

Case in point: Yufeng Luo
Spent 1 year in SCCA. Was karting in 2013, F2000 in 2014 (did CalClubs class in February and made the runoffs), and now USF2000.
http://www.usf2000.com/news/pabst-ra...gns-yufeng-luo

So, would any changes suggested have dissuaded him from joining SCCA?
Did his participation matter to everyone else?

[Steve Bamford]

But why are you limiting the discussion to SCCA racing? Do you really care what series/sanctioning committee we run in and make affordable as long as we can race our cars?

[sc94]

FRCCA has been around for many years with a very simple low cost entry level car and catered to formula cars. Despite the fact that they are a good group of guys who have always been user friendly, it has never really taken off as most people who start and stay in racing long term move on to more sophisticated cars and different sanctioning bodies. Racing is like crack, people always want better, faster, whizzier, which usually equates with newer or you simply go vintage racing. FRCCA is tested proof that building a low cost dumbed down formula car isn't the answer to filling grids....

I'm not sure of the reference to low cost entry level car or the move on to more sophisticated cars. FRCCA runs the same models of 1600s and Continentals as everyone else. There are limitations on tires and gear sets though.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

But why are you limiting the discussion to SCCA racing? Do you really care what series/sanctioning committee we run in and make affordable as long as we can race our cars?

Good point - and a reason why NASA has grown.

SCCA is the largest coverage of open wheel.
No - don't car what sanctioning body.
FRCCA seems to cover a small region. Certainly not out west.

Maybe someone at FRCCA needs to talk to NASA about joining forces for nationwide coverage.

[dsmithwc04]

Good point - and a reason why NASA has grown.

SCCA is the largest coverage of open wheel.
No - don't car what sanctioning body.
FRCCA seems to cover a small region. Certainly not out west.

Maybe someone at FRCCA needs to talk to NASA about joining forces for nationwide coverage.

FRCCA looks like it's only FV's but says you can bring any open wheel car? Little confused.

Also, schedule shows only east coast....

Since members of the SCCA open wheel community have been complaining of the same things for atleast a decade and starting a new organization would probably do nothing more than dilute the fields even further, I fear these problems will not be fixed any time soon if at all.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Looking at the FRCCA website they have all the classes - just don't know how many running in those classes...

Also, spend some time reading their rule book. I can see a lot of "objections".....

[BLS]

FRCCA looks like it's only FV's but says you can bring any open wheel car? Little confused.

Not sure how you got that. If anything, per the website, it looks more FF oriented than any other specific class, but most SCCA classes seem to be included.

[Tiago Santos]

It's the bulk of your generation that ins't here.

Thankfully the bulk of yours is... Oh wait.

[Dennis McCarthy]

I'm not sure of the reference to low cost entry level car or the move on to more sophisticated cars. FRCCA runs the same models of 1600s and Continentals as everyone else. There are limitations on tires and gear sets though.

FRCCA pushed the Banshee for many years which was kind of a hybrid cross between a FF and a Formula First. It was designed to be a low cost entry level car. While FRCCA recognizes pretty much all formula cars, the majority raced tend to be older cars that are owner maintained.

[Daryl DeArman]

Do you really care what series/sanctioning committee we run in and make affordable as long as we can race our cars?

I personally don't. There are other clubs/sanctioning bodies that will make room if you have the number$ to support it. I know somebody will chime in about worker numbers and insurance...my experience suggests that the many of the clubs/organizations around here utilize workers from the same pool, or other clubs actually attract more experienced workers because they pay them. Many of the tracks require substantial insurance to hold an event with wheel to wheel racing so what are you really getting for that SCCA dollar?

[Steve Bamford]

Bingo Steve. (I wouldn't say I won either, new stuff sure would be nice.)

What does seem to have answered the age ole myth of building a car for the masses is the new F4 car. Not $30k, but for about $50k you get a carbon tub and a really nice car.

http://www.mygale-cars.com/our-race-cars/formula-4/

Now...Imagine if someone took the wings off, put a Honda in it, and called it a FF. I bet that would be under $50k, ready to go. It's not $30k, but it's a hell of a lot better than $90+k. Regulate the gearboxes, seal the engines, ect and I think that is about as best as one can hope.

funny, now this is coming apparently in the stock format. Reid maybe you or Sam had some inside info.