Car Costs - 1984 to 2015

[Spengo]

As another non-useless 26yo I will say that flappy paddles are not important to me at all and not the major point to focus on to get more participation. In fact, if they're gonna be cables instead of electric/compressed air I actually kinda prefer stick sequential. Just feels better and it's what I'm most used to. Either way though, whether it's H-pattern, stick sequential, or paddles is a very minor detail and no matter what the car had it would not be what dissuades me from getting into that class. Whatever the car has I'm sure I can drive it. What I look for in racing is
1) What does it cost to get into it?
2) What does it cost to race and be competitive?
3) What kind of competition is there available?
4-car starting grids are not my thing, I want to be going side by side and battling for position from start to finish. Alphabet soup race groups with 2-5 guys per class getting all spread out a couple laps in doesn't seem like a very fun race.

FE seemed like a good idea to me on the surface, I like spec things, but from what I've seen at local races it falls flat in that #3 category. I don't know what the major fault in it is, but I don't see much point in buying a $30k race car to race against 2 other people. Unfortunately the best way to get more participation is... having more participation in the first place. Not very helpful I know.

[Daryl DeArman]

Or just pointing out a fact people don't like to be treated like they suck. There is that.

See what participation trophies in youth sports and not keeping score does...pointing out someone's differences is somehow equated to "they suck". Know your customer. I stand by my opinion that the younger generation has the money to road race if they want to. We just don't have something on the menu that is enticing enough to get them to part with their money. Spoiled whipper snappers!

[SpacemanSpiff]

As to campaigning a successful Nationals program in an FF vs. an FE, it may depend on your starting points. An FE car goes for Mid $30s, a reasonably modern roller FF can probably be had for low to mid-teens. For the cost difference you could probably get a Fit engine in (or a hell of a Kent), and maybe some other upgrades as well. You'd be turning wrenches yourself but maybe. If we're talking new you probably can't ($60k FE's vs. the $90kish quoted before). That said, $60k is a lot of cash if you designed and built one if your time has no value. Your chances of getting it right are lower, but anything's possible.

If the "generalization" is clearly made as a "generalization" and you don't fit that mold; there is no need to be resentful. Here's another generalization about this younger generation: Feelings get hurt too easily/too easily offended.

Auto-shop isn't taught at most high schools anymore.

Dad most likely is spending too much time working and pays somebody-else to perform maintenance and repairs on his car.

96.1% of the new vehicles sold in America are AUTOMATICS.

Each and every generation has things they are ignorant of. You designed your own house on a computer....do you think my Grandfather could have done that 15 years ago? He couldn't even get the clock on the VCR to quit blinking. He could fix a tractor with some bailing wire and duct tape though.

Shortly after college my father claimed that his brand new Jetta had an F1 style gearbox in it (DCT without paddle shifters). I argued this point for a minute or two, and then gave up. I won't hold a general lack of technical knowledge and the ability to be swayed by sleezy salesman against your generation. My point? It's not a generational thing, it's a matter of background. And yup, dad is spending too much at the dealership. Myself and the aforementioned group of friends maintain their own cars.

At track days the age distribution seems pretty even, maybe a little heavy on the young guys. Why would you assume racing would have a drastically different breakdown all other things being equalized?

Cost, inexperience and wanting to play with what they want to build, not what the rules say they can race are the biggest reasons my buddies aren't racing. I suspect a view of the data with these factors are more relevant than age (although age is a factor in all of the above).

You can insult my generation all you want and my feelings won't get hurt, but it'll skew your data. And it doesn't make cars cheaper.

[Daryl DeArman]

whatever the car has i'm sure i can drive it. What i look for in racing is
1) what does it cost to get into it?
2) what does it cost to race and be competitive?
3) what kind of competition is there available?
4-car starting grids are not my thing, i want to be going side by side and battling for position from start to finish. Alphabet soup race groups with 2-5 guys per class getting all spread out a couple laps in doesn't seem like a very fun race.

Fe seemed like a good idea to me on the surface, i like spec things, but from what i've seen at local races it falls flat in that #3 category. I don't know what the major fault in it is, but i don't see much point in buying a $30k race car to race against 2 other people. Unfortunately the best way to get more participation is... Having more participation in the first place. Not very helpful i know.

bingo!

[dsmithwc04]

Or just pointing out a fact people don't like to be treated like they suck. There is that.

No doubt, although it must be mentioned a not so insignificant part of me spending the money, time, sweat and tears to race is the family you meet at the track. Most of the guys I've met have been fantastic and unbelievable helpful. When the bank account gets lower than I'd like and I'm counting pennies to get to the track it's being around the guys at the track that give that little bit extra push to make it out there. It is an unfortunate fact that some people are just plain a** hats, but thats a small piece of the pie fortunately.

I am not saying what's wrong with them. I am saying why our current selection of products isn't attracting them.

If they can afford to AutoX a WRX with $15K in mods they can road race a FV, Club Ford or IT car. Saying they can't afford to road race simply isn't true. The bottom line is we need to listen to WHY they aren't willing to spend that money road racing instead of AutoX that WRX.

Daryl, you have a good point here. But racing FV or Club Ford isn't exactly an enticing option to switch from a WRX with $15k in mods to a class that uses 40 year old technology and a VW beetle engine (or whatever they are out of). IT doesn't exactly help the open wheel cause either...

As another non-useless 26yo I will say that flappy paddles are not important to me at all and not the major point to focus on to get more participation. In fact, if they're gonna be cables instead of electric/compressed air I actually kinda prefer stick sequential. Just feels better and it's what I'm most used to. Either way though, whether it's H-pattern, stick sequential, or paddles is a very minor detail and no matter what the car had it would not be what dissuades me from getting into that class. Whatever the car has I'm sure I can drive it. What I look for in racing is
1) What does it cost to get into it?
2) What does it cost to race and be competitive?
3) What kind of competition is there available?
4-car starting grids are not my thing, I want to be going side by side and battling for position from start to finish. Alphabet soup race groups with 2-5 guys per class getting all spread out a couple laps in doesn't seem like a very fun race.

FE seemed like a good idea to me on the surface, I like spec things, but from what I've seen at local races it falls flat in that #3 category. I don't know what the major fault in it is, but I don't see much point in buying a $30k race car to race against 2 other people. Unfortunately the best way to get more participation is... having more participation in the first place. Not very helpful I know.

Very valid points. The FE group is alive and well in the midwest though if your willing to travel. One Formula's Challenge series has had no less than 7 FE's show up even at regional events. Even more at Majors...

See what participation trophies in youth sports and not keeping score does...pointing out someone's differences is somehow equated to "they suck". Know your customer. I stand by my opinion that the younger generation has the money to road race if they want to. We just don't have something on the menu that is enticing enough to get them to part with their money. Spoiled whipper snappers!

Daryl, I think that you mean well, but your seriously out of touch with my generation. Simply bringing up a valid point that the current SCCA menu doesn't have a meal that a lot of my generation wants does not mean that you know the answer. For those of us that pay our own way I can assure you we are anything but spoiled whipper snappers. Who says whipper snappers anymore anyway?

Lets focus on answers to the important questions, not opinions of perceived "generalized" generational weaknesses.

[Daryl DeArman]

It's not a generational thing, it's a matter of background.

Yep...a background that the vast majority of the younger generation doesn't have. You and your friends are outliers and likely why you are here.

wanting to play with what they want to build, not what the rules say they can race are the biggest reasons my buddies aren't racing

That's the conclusion my non-scientific data reached as well.

Why do you think that is? Why do you think they aren't willing to pick A, B or C and go with it?

[ccoffin]

Why do you think that is? Why do you think they aren't willing to pick A, B or C and go with it?

cause A, B, and C aren't helping big car companies sell cars so big car companies aren't marketing A, B, and C to the generation that's willing to pay for their crap.

[dsmithwc04]

Yep...a background that the vast majority of the younger generation doesn't have. You and your friends are outliers and likely why you are here.



That's the conclusion my non-scientific data reached as well.

Why do you think that is? Why do you think they aren't willing to pick A, B or C and go with it?

Probably because the classes are antiquated. The SCCA keep applying bandaids to classes that were mostly popular 20, 30 or 40 years ago. Again, I don't want to drive FV, CF, FF, CFC etc. and I'm sure other guys thinking of getting into racing don't either. What other classes are affordable? I love the idea of FB but it's not quite there yet and probably far from affordable for me to try to run competitively as well from my somewhat limited knowledge of the class. For now there is really only one class that I am willing to run in and I'm sure I've mentioned it too many times already.

Personally, I think the open wheel classes need completely overhauled. No more bandaids please.

[Daryl DeArman]

Daryl, I think that you mean well, but your seriously out of touch with my generation. Simply bringing up a valid point that the current SCCA menu doesn't have a meal that a lot of my generation wants does not mean that you know the answer. For those of us that pay our own way I can assure you we are anything but spoiled whipper snappers. Who says whipper snappers anymore anyway?

Us old folks do. I guess you're seriously out of touch with my generations' sense of humor. I'll insert one of your generations' emoji things there so you know I mean well. Seeing as how your generation has to use smileys to convey emotion rather than their words

Lets focus on answers to the important questions, not opinions of perceived "generalized" generational weaknesses.

Deal.

The important question is "Why aren't the youngins' coming out to play?"

The answer that many have given is "they don't have the money"

My opinion/response is "yes they do" we just aren't doing a good enough job convincing them to part with it. If we keep concentrating on the cost we are answering a question that wasn't asked. They have money, give them what they want and they will spend it.

Some people will buy things they don't want just because it's on sale. Others are willing to spend good money on things they really want, even if it doesn't have fantastic intrinsic value.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The important question is "Why aren't the youngins' coming out to play?"

The answer that many have given is "they don't have the money"

My opinion/response is "yes they do" we just aren't doing a good enough job convincing them to part with it.

So, how many SCCA members have been asked to bring their Formula Car (or other race car) to the SCCA track night events that are supposed to get more members?

If (young) people do not get exposed to the cars, how are they going to develop interest?

I can guarantee young people spend near or more money on their BMWs than most of us spend on our cars.....

[BURKY]

So, how many SCCA members have been asked to bring their Formula Car (or other race car) to the SCCA track night events that are supposed to get more members?

If (young) people do not get exposed to the cars, how are they going to develop interest?

I can guarantee young people spend near or more money on their BMWs than most of us spend on our cars.....

They held a SCCA track night a couple of months ago at PBIR, maybe 60 cars. We showed up early to get my normal spot for the SARRC races that weekend, unloaded two FB'S, and not one person came over to check them out. No interest what so ever!!!

They were more interested in comparing Miatas.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Yep...a background that the vast majority of the younger generation doesn't have. You and your friends are outliers and likely why you are here.



That's the conclusion my non-scientific data reached as well.

Why do you think that is? Why do you think they aren't willing to pick A, B or C and go with it?

I think you'd find the majority of 45-60 year olds don't have it either. Like mine, your group of friends do.

As to building what you want, I suspect that everyone has something a little bit different that they'd like. It's certainly shown that way in this thread. At track days I can play with whatever ideas I want and see how it goes. It represents a development class that exists no where in motorsports.

I don't have to worry about spending on what the class requires to be competitive. Also, to be fair, SCCA has a weird way of looking at cost savings. An IT build can't remove things like AC/Heat or unused wiring harnesses, but you can run a $10k engine. Our cars all have plates (in CA no less), can be driven to the track and along CA-1 on a weekend, and are pretty likely to leave a trackday unscathed.

For less than any regional I can sign up for a track day/weekend at any of the tracks in the area. When I get there in all likelyhood it'll be a fully subscribed grid, where I can generally find a person or two at about my speed. If not I still learn. Do I want to race? Yes, but this isn't a bad trade until I have the chops and budget.

[JeffBartz]

I think the most important thing in attracting young people is allowing them to easily watch the races. Personally from experience the only race I ever have any of my friends come out to watch is the June Sprints because we can get a deal on tickets. Other races you have to put a bunch of people on your crew list and it is not easy for young people who don't know anyone personally at the track to watch the races. How can you expect young people to get interested in racing in SCCA if they are not able to easily watch the races. That's just my 2 cents.

[reidhazelton]

I think the most important thing in attracting young people is allowing them to easily watch the races. Personally from experience the only race I ever have any of my friends come out to watch is the June Sprints because we can get a deal on tickets. Other races you have to put a bunch of people on your crew list and it is not easy for young people who don't know anyone personally at the track to watch the races. How can you expect young people to get interested in racing in SCCA if they are not able to easily watch the races. That's just my 2 cents.

Now that is one the great ideas that I hoped would come from this thread.

Great point, Grape Juice (Jeff).

[R. Pare]

Probably because the classes are antiquated. The SCCA keep applying bandaids to classes that were mostly popular 20, 30 or 40 years ago. Again, I don't want to drive FV, CF, FF, CFC etc.

Then what do you want in a class that can be affordable?

PS - Two of those classes you listed - FV & FF just happen to be the most popular open wheel classes in the rest of the world.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Back on making cars cheaper. Would anyone be against allowing a stock junkyard Fit engine? Maybe give allowances for a baffled oil pan rather than a dry sump? Might not be a winner, but I bet installation costs would be way less. It's probably the equivalent to the original Kents, unlike the HPD kit.

I didn't know open wheeled cars were being allowed at Track night in America, interesting. Pressure to make this more the standard would probably help. And then advertise, don't just roll the FB's out and wait for people to come chat, put out displays when the cars are in the pits, work with SCCA to sell the classes, whatever. Hanging with the Miata guys is easy since I know Miatas.

As to spectator events, I wasn't psyched to drop $20 to go watch the NASA West Coast championship last year. Money was no big deal, but there was no one in the stands, and it wasn't much of a spectator event. I know it's not why people race, but still. I suspect it's a lot of why I can go run Wednesday night drags at Sonoma for $20, but a day of racing is $300.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

They held a SCCA track night a couple of months ago at PBIR, maybe 60 cars. We showed up early to get my normal spot, unloaded two FB'S, and not one person came over to check them out. No interest what so ever!!!

They were more interested in comparing Miatas.

Because:
- They know nothing about the F? cars
- They don't think they are attainable
- They might think you're unapproachable (did you talk to them about their miatas)
- They think its too structured, too many rules....

Were there any non-Formula race cars? Actual Miata racers?

Did the organizers speak to the group? And say, welcome, check out these cars that SCCA racer run?

Did you do that yourself or coordinate with the region...

People gravitate to what they know.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I think the most important thing in attracting young people is allowing them to easily watch the races..

And the more tracks are moved away from the population, the worse this problem (and street racing) get.....

Closest track for me is 3 hours. In Los Angeles the closest is Fontana - probably 90 minutes for a lot of the population.

[dsmithwc04]

And the more tracks are moved away from the population, the worse this problem (and street racing) get.....

Closest track for me is 3 hours. In Los Angeles the closest is Fontana - probably 90 minutes for a lot of the population.

I doubt anybody is going to invest in racing who wont drive 3 hours to a race.

Also, its hard to think people who aren't initiated enough to go look at a cool formula b car at a track night have the foritude to endure the chalenges of racing...

[Jim Nash]

PS - Two of those classes you listed - FV & FF just happen to be the most popular open wheel classes in the rest of the world.

FV as we know it here in the US has few similarities to the rest of the world. To a lesser degree, the same can be said for FF. I would think you are aware of this. These classes, as much as I am a fan of them, are struggling here. If it was not for the Honda engine, which many US FF stalwart's of the class dispise, FF would be in more of a decline. Thanks to Honda for that boost.

Jim

[Jnovak]

IMO open wheel racing is a total mess everywhere on this planet. Way too many expensive classes and very slim fields everywhere. Way too many choices and 99% of the classes and cars are way overpriced IMO.

Now that said, I am not saying that things cannot be fixed. I know that a modern tube framed car that is as fast or faster then your current FF can be built and sold for about $30K but to do that you need to build them in quantities of at least 25 at a time. to make this happen requires the commitment of both a corporate sponsor and the SCCA to sanction the new class. So given the current status of the SCCA and finding a corporate sponsor to supply a powertrain I very much doubt that amateur open wheel racing in the US can grow and thrive. I am sorry to say that open wheel will never again be what it was.

This saddens me as an SCCA member for nearly 50 years. I remember when I went to my first race in an FVee that I put together out of scrounged parts. There were a total of 69 entrants in Fvee that weekend and that was the definition of serious and very fun racing.

I need a beer to cry in.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I doubt anybody is going to invest in racing who wont drive 3 hours to a race.

Also, its hard to think people who aren't initiated enough to go look at a cool formula b car at a track night have the foritude to endure the chalenges of racing...

When you can see a street race on your block there is no need to drive.
We are talking about watching initially anyway.
When you can see it on TV and drive ANY car you want on a video game, why go?

Even manufacturers are taking video gamers and putting them in cars. Why would anyone want to "pay their dues" when they can get a ride straight from their couch !

That's what they're all hoping for....

My questions for Burky were whether he had a chance to engage in conversation. Did the event organizers promote the cars.....

[BURKY]

Because:
- They know nothing about the F? cars
- They don't think they are attainable
- They might think you're unapproachable (did you talk to them about their miatas)
- They think its too structured, too many rules....

Were there any non-Formula race cars? Actual Miata racers?

Did the organizers speak to the group? And say, welcome, check out these cars that SCCA racer run?

Did you do that yourself or coordinate with the region...

People gravitate to what they know.

As for being approachable... They had no problems asking if my compressor worked...Filled probably eight sets of tires.

We were the only one there.

Organizer didn't mention anything.

Did it on our own.

[BWC54]

PS - Two of those classes you listed - FV & FF just happen to be the most popular open wheel classes in the rest of the world.

In SCCA too based on participation. There are more problems with participation in FA, FB, FC, FE, FM overall. There are some isolated strong areas in those regionally but overall they are weaker than FF.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

As for being approachable... They had no problems asking if my compressor worked...Filled probably eight sets of tires.

We were the only one there.

Organizer didn't mention anything.

Did it on our own.

The organizers completely failed.... What is the point of the track night? Just some track revenue - single shot?

They need to ask members to show up with cars and talk about them.
Maybe give you $50 off your next race....

[BURKY]

The organizers completely failed.... What is the point of the track night? Just some track revenue - single shot?

They need to ask members to show up with cars and talk about them.
Maybe give you $50 off your next race....

I'd rather see that money go to the worker fund... But I completely agree!

[SpacemanSpiff]

Yeah, Track night is an interesting concept. Marketed solely to people that are already involved or have been with the SCCA, held on a work night, and at least for the SF Region, is being held a minimum of 2hours away from major cities, and probably a maximum of about 5. It's a great idea, with questionable execution. I'd love to do them, but it's just not feasible without burning vacation time. Or run with NCRC on Saturdays, hard choice.

[TimW]

FV as we know it here in the US has few similarities to the rest of the world. To a lesser degree, the same can be said for FF. I would think you are aware of this. These classes, as much as I am a fan of them, are struggling here. If it was not for the Honda engine, which many US FF stalwart's of the class dispise, FF would be in more of a decline. Thanks to Honda for that boost.

Jim

I think FF in the ROW is also essentially dead at the non-club level too. F4 has taken over both CAMS & MSA, arguably the last bastion of international ladder racing with FF (Randseries notwithstanding)

For a datapoint, I bought my FF when I was 35 years old, when financially I had zero business owning a formula car given my income (or lack thereof) and housing expenses at the time. My only asset was that I spent 8 years out of college working on race cars, so I knew what needed to be done to get it ready; alternatively entering the real work force after working on race cars had me at a income/asset disadvantage to my peers.

I bought a roller for $10k (average for a DB6 roller at the time, not a killer deal by any means) and I was at drivers school one year later for $23k, which included a data system. I ran 3 years on used take off tires before I bought my first new set. I found a $1500 trailer Notre Dame was dumping for cheap, rented Ford Expeditions to tow until I found a Tundra owner who couldn't make his payments. I (stupidly) tied up my dog inside the trailer when I went on track to save boarding fees so I could go racing for a weekend. I spent every non housing/living/retirement savings dollar on racing for the first 4-5 years, incrementally opportunistically investing each year a small portion of the budget to make the car faster or easier to prep.

I make the point that it can be done for a lot less than what a top notch technically modern car is being advertised for But still those younger are indeed spending as much or more to go to AutoX or track day. Why? I think its two reasons: first, while any one particularly modern technological feature isn't going to flip the bit to make FF more interesting, the guy's WRXs with mods, that costs the same as older open wheel car, are going to win because they are arguably technically more interesting than a outboard suspended club ford with a carb in a similar price point. Additionally, the WRX has a fairly well developed aftermarket allowing them to tailor their car to exactly how they think is best for their car (as stated above). Nobody wants to keep solving solved problems nowadays (tweaking the carb jetting when FI makes engines run with a zero FWF). Second, in many areas its a space issue. When younger and saving for a house or/or paying off college, you simply do not have the space to have a track car that is not your daily driver (yet a alone a trailer and tow vehicle). There is a largish migration happening of younger new grads to cities. I see guys in Silicon Valley spend huge amounts of money on their cars to take to track days, have double what I had invested in a FF but will never go racing because they simply don't have the space to have a dedicated track and/or race car. Track days are a new option to these car fans that did not exist when I was in my 20s and its more appealing that doing what I did: sit out until I was 35 and had a garage.

FWIW, having crossed to the dark side of tin-tops, it only gets worse. The alphabet soup racing is 10 times worse with fenders (I've been in a group with ~18 classes and long for a FV/FF/F500 grouping) and you're never running around who you're racing against. Furthermore, in some classes its so limiting that something that will make your car more reliable is not allowed in the rules because they are restrictive in nature. NASA points system, where you can make any number of mods to your car that suit your car best but each one costs some points and how many points you accrue groups you into a class, appeals to the modder crowd much more than SCCA's rulebook designed around a different generations mindset. Like stated above, this is the 'development' that most seem interested in if they want to not drink the spec kool-aid.

That being said, I won't go back simply because with a tin-top I don't have to go to a race to drive the car. With open wheel, you can only drive it at a race. Sometimes people get the enjoyment out of driving at the limit instead of racing at the limit. Arguably, in most classes now racing is a glorified track day with better safety response when there are fields of 2 cars per class anyways, so might as well go to the (cheaper) track days (or SCCA realize that its not really racing anyway but for a limited few and/or a few events and tailor the program as such).

[dsmithwc04]

Out of curiosity, since I'm limited on the inner workings of FB, what is keeping FB from being the class of choice? It looks to be the same operating cost as an FF in a much cooler package and only slightly more than a used FF and WAY less than a new FF. FB with a spec motor package, spec tires and diff could be a nice development class with enormous potential and relatively good cost control. Plus a 6 speed box with paddle shifting is cool.

[Matt King]

That being said, I won't go back simply because with a tin-top I don't have to go to a race to drive the car. With open wheel, you can only drive it at a race. Sometimes people get the enjoyment out of driving at the limit instead of racing at the limit. Arguably, in most classes now racing is a glorified track day with better safety response when there are fields of 2 cars per class anyways, so might as well go to the (cheaper) track days (or SCCA realize that its not really racing anyway but for a limited few and/or a few events and tailor the program as such).

This pretty much sums up the reason for the decline in open wheel racing.

[Daryl DeArman]

I think you'd find the majority of 45-60 year olds don't have it either.

No sir. The folks that graduated high school in the 60, 70 and 80's took metal shop, wood shop, drafting and auto shop. They had to work on their cars because crap broke. They fixed things that quit working because it wasn't feasible to buy another. They went outside and built crap and took crap apart.

That is why that generation isn't hesitant to fiddle with carbs, thinks 7500rpms is revving to the moon and is okay with racing a car that is 20-30 years old.

We (the generation that is selling/manufacturing cars) have got to alter the mindset if we are trying to figure out how to sell a race car to the younger generation.

It needs to be disposable. Drive by wire. If you are leading by too much it must automatically cut fuel and retard spark until others' catch up, we don't want anybody's feelings getting hurt. It must not have a large carbon footprint. Must have bluetooth and be controlled with a PS3 controller.

On a more serious note. It doesn't have to be fast (they are more attracted to SM than FB), it doesn't have to be sexy (again see SM). It must be something they can relate to. It has to be just about maintenance free (plug n' play) if you will.

Look at FST and F6 packages. Why aren't those hugely successful? They seem to be hits (cost to performance ratios) on paper to me. One not relevant enough the other perceived as too maintenance intensive?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Out of curiosity, since I'm limited on the inner workings of FB, what is keeping FB from being the class of choice? It looks to be the same operating cost as an FF in a much cooler package and only slightly more than a used FF and WAY less than a new FF. FB with a spec motor package, spec tires and diff could be a nice development class with enormous potential and relatively good cost control. Plus a 6 speed box with paddle shifting is cool.

With spec you're now changing things...

When I studied the classes my first choice was FB. Problem: Top end car$.
Next choice was FE - could be had for a bit less, but not many run the left coast.
FC was the largest class, reasonably attainable (anywhere from $10k to $60k).
So, I picked a mid-year FC....

FB is neat but - as with anything - there is controversy as to the running cost/life of motors. To be fair that was probably the early days before a lot of the problems were sorted out (oiling, heat, etc).

The idea that you can by a 5000mi engine off ebay and drop it in is false though. Again they all get rebuilt to be top contenders....

ymmv

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This pretty much sums up the reason for the decline in open wheel racing.

Yep - there are no track day operators with open wheel groups and they won't mix.
So open wheel options are test days and races...

[dsmithwc04]

No sir. The folks that graduated high school in the 60, 70 and 80's took metal shop, wood shop, drafting and auto shop. They had to work on their cars because crap broke. They fixed things that quit working because it wasn't feasible to buy another. They went outside and built crap and took crap apart.

That is why that generation isn't hesitant to fiddle with carbs, thinks 7500rpms is revving to the moon and is okay with racing a car that is 20-30 years old.

We (the generation that is selling/manufacturing cars) have got to alter the mindset if we are trying to figure out how to sell a race car to the younger generation.

It needs to be disposable. Drive by wire. If you are leading by too much it must automatically cut fuel and retard spark until others' catch up, we don't want anybody's feelings getting hurt. It must not have a large carbon footprint. Must have bluetooth and be controlled with a PS3 controller.

On a more serious note. It doesn't have to be fast (they are more attracted to SM than FB), it doesn't have to be sexy (again see SM). It must be something they can relate to. It has to be just about maintenance free (plug n' play) if you will.

Look at FST and F6 packages. Why aren't those hugely successful? They seem to be hits (cost to performance ratios) on paper to me. One not relevant enough the other perceived as too maintenance intensive?

[marshall9]

It's not just young people that have left SCCA FF due to costs. CF is where I am financially. I cannot afford a FF that would be competitive in SCCA, especially buying tires at the rate and cost that car deserves. In CF, a really good car costs 15K, and the racing is just as exciting to me. It's not worth another 15-25K to me to go 2-4 seconds a lap faster to be competitive in an SCCA Major.

I'll be back to SCCA when they go to a Toyo or similar, as I really like their safety crews and the way they run their events and for me the SCCA still has some prestige left.........

However, being 50+ years old, I think Vintage cars of all kinds are as sexy as any new one. I would rather own a real Can Am car from the 70's than a 1990's Cart car for the same money........Rather drive a 510 Datsun than a Spec Miata. Yeah, I would also rather drive a Ztec FC than a WRX though, lol.

[BURKY]

It needs to be disposable. Drive by wire. If you are leading by too much it must automatically cut fuel and retard spark until others' catch up, we don't want anybody's feelings getting hurt. It must not have a large carbon footprint.

. https://youtu.be/2cS0PsuMQNQ

[SpacemanSpiff]

Is that a thing? I want in.

No sir. The folks that graduated high school in the 60, 70 and 80's took metal shop, wood shop, drafting and auto shop. They had to work on their cars because crap broke. They fixed things that quit working because it wasn't feasible to buy another. They went outside and built crap and took crap apart.

That is why that generation isn't hesitant to fiddle with carbs, thinks 7500rpms is revving to the moon and is okay with racing a car that is 20-30 years old.

We (the generation that is selling/manufacturing cars) have got to alter the mindset if we are trying to figure out how to sell a race car to the younger generation.

It needs to be disposable. Drive by wire. If you are leading by too much it must automatically cut fuel and retard spark until others' catch up, we don't want anybody's feelings getting hurt. It must not have a large carbon footprint. Must have bluetooth and be controlled with a PS3 controller.

On a more serious note. It doesn't have to be fast (they are more attracted to SM than FB), it doesn't have to be sexy (again see SM). It must be something they can relate to. It has to be just about maintenance free (plug n' play) if you will.

Look at FST and F6 packages. Why aren't those hugely successful? They seem to be hits (cost to performance ratios) on paper to me. One not relevant enough the other perceived as too maintenance intensive?

I'll be at Sonoma as a spectator in September if you're running there and need someone to help out, let me know. You might be surprised.

[Daryl DeArman]

Yep - there are no track day operators with open wheel groups and they won't mix.
So open wheel options are test days and races...

You can run your open wheel car with AROSC. They used to get a couple of guys with FM's to come out and play. I ran my FF with them my first two events after a complete ground-up as it was cheap and tons of track time....much more productive than a race day...and if all went to hell in a hand-basket I wouldn't be out much.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'll be at Sonoma as a spectator in September if you're running there and need someone to help out, let me know. You might be surprised.

Thanks for the offer. I already determined you are an outlier. You are young and found this site.

It's the bulk of your generation that ins't here.

I drive by the UTI campus in Rancho on my way to work from time to time. It's refreshing to see the youngins' out there. There may be hope yet.

[John Merriman]

Edited from a post in a thread called "The Problem" which ran to 47 posts exactly three years ago. Nothing has changed!


Let’s first recognize the factors – many mentioned above - which have caused the continuing downward trend in open wheel racing. They are "market forces" and natural evolutionary impacts - mainly demographics. They are facts unlikely to be countered. A few decades ago a whole different set of "market forces" (and the tail end of the baby-boom generation - gave birth to a whole different, energized open wheel segment. Example: In NER we had 15-20 car CF grids as well as 20 car FF grids at a typical Regional; 10-15 FF cars at each driver's school!

CLUB RACING TODAY - Costs are a MAJOR factor. Club Racing has gone seriously UP MARKET. In general, the current demographic of club racers want – and have - the best of everything and they can afford it. It appears to be a “no compromises” sport. But that is a limited crowd. The recession really socked it to a very wide segment of the population but it's broader than that: middle incomes have been stagnant for twenty years. Disposable income has really shrunk. Many economists argue that consumers' reduced spending capability are permanent.

YOUNG PEOPLE - Regardless of the occasional interest one sees now and then, it is an absolute fact that young people have much less interest in cars than previous generations. They have a ton of other fun activities and interests – all of which cost less and take less time. Simple fact of life and nothing can be done about it. You can’t market the sport to a disinterested population. Sorry. (Think about it: "marketing" an amateur sport is a sorta silly concept anyway!)

In any case, there is no way a young person can afford to go racing – unless dad picks up the tab. Period. Track rental costs are high and entry fees have had to follow - big time. Every single part, all equipment, all services and, of course, cars and engines have become very sophisticated and thus very expensive. Hi-Tech is the name of the game. $5000 sets of shocks on CF cars? Ha!

TIRES – There are several debates and hundreds - no, several hundreds, of posts on this forum about tire costs, spec tires, etc. It’s become kind of ridiculous, really. Just try to imagine the total annual tire bill of all open wheel racers in the US! It's a colossal absurdity!

RUNNING IN THE BACK? - Going racing for the pure fun of it and running at the back – or mid-pack - in an old VEE or a tired Club Ford can be done but no one seems to be interested in that option because all costs taken together are a huge barrier. There are NO shoestring racers in the paddock these days.

TIME - Racing takes A LOT OF TIME, time a lot of people simply don't have. Even if you run a fairly “low-maintenance” car, the race weekend involves many, many hours for a very small amount of on-track time. For many, the time commitment is impossible to justify. But Auto-X? Hey, one day away. Quick runs, instant gratification.


The idea of an inexpensive car is fascinating and posts above about how it could be done are very thought provoking. But for all current classes, be real: there is no going back. The sport will simply have to seek some sort of major change to assure its survival. So how are the ideas and energy apparent in this huge forum thread translated into action? Hello? SCCA?!! Are you listening? Even at that, entry levels will not return to the heydays - just as it is the case US pro open wheel and sports-car racing. Sad but true guys.