Car Costs - 1984 to 2015

[Purple Frog]

The party is over, turn out the lights.

Just read in another thread that the CAT National has 1 FA and 3 FC cars entered.
One of the greatest road race facilities in the country, and that is the entry?
Would not have believed it 15 years ago.

(I believe at the 2000 June Sprints there was a combined 67 FAs and FCs.)

Andy has an initial outlay of $62K to ramp up for his first major, after already racing for well over a decade? (and that is with a car costing less than $20K)

The light switch is on the wall by the door on your way out.

[Steve Bamford]

Only a few weeks ago or so Mr Purple Frog I recall you writing that racing is a sport of Kings relating to costs.

If there are other options that are cheaper such as VSCDA then why not simply go race there? Why do we want the Club to be all things to all people? I have tried that in my businesses before, trying to service every different type of client available, and soon realized it wasn't possible. I had to concentrate my businesses efforts on what we did well and what made us $'s, I wasn't able to do that and please every customer out there. Why do we expect the SCCA to be able to do the impossible.

As writen in the above post the lights are almost out.

[RobLav]

I too reached the conclusion to run either PCA or vintage. The fun factor was no longer worth the cost and effort.

[S Lathrop]

After following this discussion, I can't think of anything that would be more fun than to show up to a pro F1600 weekend with a 20 year old car, on an open trailer, behind a 10 year old mini van and smoke the field in three races.

I would use a Honda engine only because I would not want to do the head work Saturday night that is necessary with a Kent engine.

There is no reason that an effort as I described would not be as successful / competitive as anybody else at the race.

Maybe a large part of the problem is that we think we have to spend a ton to be fast rather than we need to be smart how we spend our money.

You don't need $12,000 worth of shocks, You need a set of shocks that are set perfectly for the car and tires you are using. That can be done with inexpensive shocks.

Expensive data loggers don't drive the car. Drivers do. Data is not necessary to make a car go fast. It won't make any difference if it is totally removed from the car. It might even help by removing a distraction from the driver and his job of driving the car.

If the car is really well setup, it may not need but 4 tires for the entire weekend. That is especially true with the new tires.

The real issue is "want to" on the part of the driver and crew. How hard and smart they are willing to work and how much preparation they are willing to do.

[Jnovak]

After following this discussion, I can't think of anything that would be more fun than to show up to a pro F1600 weekend with a 20 year old car, on an open trailer, behind a 10 year old mini van and smoke the field in three races.

I would use a Honda engine only because I would not want to do the head work Saturday night that is necessary with a Kent engine.

There is no reason that an effort as I described would not be as successful / competitive as anybody else at the race.

Maybe a large part of the problem is that we think we have to spend a ton to be fast rather than we need to be smart how we spend our money.

You don't need $12,000 worth of shocks, You need a set of shocks that are set perfectly for the car and tires you are using. That can be done with inexpensive shocks.

Expensive data loggers don't drive the car. Drivers do. Data is not necessary to make a car go fast. It won't make any difference if it is totally removed from the car. It might even help by removing a distraction from the driver and his job of driving the car.

If the car is really well setup, it may not need but 4 tires for the entire weekend. That is especially true with the new tires.

The real issue is "want to" on the part of the driver and crew. How hard and smart they are willing to work and how much preparation they are willing to do.

Pick a couple of chassis Steve even if I already know the answer.

[Steve Bamford]

After following this discussion, I can't think of anything that would be more fun than to show up to a pro F1600 weekend with a 20 year old car, on an open trailer, behind a 10 year old mini van and smoke the field in three races.

If the car is really well setup, it may not need but 4 tires for the entire weekend. That is

The real issue is "want to" on the part of the driver and crew. How hard and smart they are willing to work and how much preparation they are willing to do.

It won't happen. Even with the best Shoe the field won't be "smoked" as all the cars are really close with the Honda and breaking the draft simply doesn't happen.

I am not saying a 20 year old car can't win, it just won't be by much if it does at all.

[SStadel]

The party is over, turn out the lights.

Just read in another thread that the CAT National has 1 FA and 3 FC cars entered.
One of the greatest road race facilities in the country, and that is the entry?
Would not have believed it 15 years ago.

(I believe at the 2000 June Sprints there was a combined 67 FAs and FCs.)

Andy has an initial outlay of $62K to ramp up for his first major, after already racing for well over a decade? (and that is with a car costing less than $20K)

The light switch is on the wall by the door on your way out.

But there are 11 FE'S and growing. Look at the 4 pages of this thread. How do we control costs? Spec. Guys are basically spending the same now that they were in 2003.

[S Lathrop]

It won't happen. Even with the best Shoe the field won't be "smoked" as all the cars are really close with the Honda and breaking the draft simply doesn't happen.

I am not saying a 20 year old car can't win, it just won't be by much if it does at all.

I agree that all the cars are so close that smoking the field ain't possible. But you sure can run with the best as I described.

[dsmithwc04]

But there are 11 FE'S and growing. Look at the 4 pages of this thread. How do we control costs? Spec. Guys are basically spending the same now that they were in 2003.

Agreed. Last FE race at blackhawk i got new tires, paid my entry, plus practice, plus gas to/from and i was under $2500 for everything.

I have a motor that will get me 30+ weekends and still be competitive, cost about $3500 to freshen up after those 5-6 full seasons and a gear box that so far has shown no wear after 2 full race weekends. I also don't have to spend money on pricey go-fast parts to keep up with the fast crowd.

If you cant afford to be competitive in FF,FC, etc. then why not run FE where guys are showing up and having a blast?

[S Lathrop]

But there are 11 FE'S and growing. Look at the 4 pages of this thread. How do we control costs? Spec. Guys are basically spending the same now that they were in 2003.

Racing Spec cars as you are advocating is fine as a way to go racing and control costs at some level. You also get a good test of which driver is beat at adapting to the limitations of the class. And the learning curve is way lower when you start with a spec car. In short a lot of fun on limited output. Or a good return on the dollar.

But Formula F is a development class. You have a set of rules for building a formula car and then you are on your own to build a car that maximizes the performance of the car. Setup becomes very important and a driver's ability to optimize the setup for himself is at a premium. Also, the drivers are not the only competitors in the pit lane. The challenges of a development formula allow people to be involved at a very intense level without sitting in the cockpit.

When you get to Indy Lights and higher performance cars, the skill set that a driver develops in a true formula car class become almost as important as raw talent.

I have helped work out setups for a spec formula car class this year and most of what we did was engineer around problems with the basic design of the car. The end result was a car that was not very nice to drive and for sure not as fast as it could be if the basic car could be legally modified.

The other objection that I have to spec cars is that the cost of playing is higher because there are no second and third tier cars in the class. Cars that cost half to a third of new cars.

It is fairly easy to tell which spec car a driver learned in by the way he drives a car such as a Lights. Most people when they get to the Lights level will not relearn basic driving skills. And it is nearly impossible to teach those drivers the fine skills of shock tuning in a car going 190 mph.

[R. Pare]

Besides, isn't racing a spec car a lot like doing the Samba with your sister?


OK ok - I'll go away now!

[Purple Frog]

Steve,
I think I am in a way agreeing with you. I think SCCA has made a decision to design their business model around the group of racers that can afford their product.
That is also what the great pro series in which I participated did also.
I see no problem with that.
dsmithwc04's post reflects that direction, in that he is happy to be able to spend ~$2,500/weekend. Andy spent ~$62K to run his first Major with his new to him used car.
In the same vein Starbuck's is not trying to attract Flying J coffee customers with discount coffee, and discount service.

Noting another part of this entertaining thread...Having come up through the autocross ranks into road racing. I believe another reason a great number of autocrossers don't move to road racing because pylons don't cause total car write-offs in 2 seconds. They like to tow home with their cars unscratched.

[dsmithwc04]

Racing Spec cars as you are advocating is fine as a way to go racing and control costs at some level. You also get a good test of which driver is beat at adapting to the limitations of the class. And the learning curve is way lower when you start with a spec car. In short a lot of fun on limited output. Or a good return on the dollar.

But Formula F is a development class. You have a set of rules for building a formula car and then you are on your own to build a car that maximizes the performance of the car. Setup becomes very important and a driver's ability to optimize the setup for himself is at a premium. Also, the drivers are not the only competitors in the pit lane. The challenges of a development formula allow people to be involved at a very intense level without sitting in the cockpit.

When you get to Indy Lights and higher performance cars, the skill set that a driver develops in a true formula car class become almost as important as raw talent.

I have helped work out setups for a spec formula car class this year and most of what we did was engineer around problems with the basic design of the car. The end result was a car that was not very nice to drive and for sure not as fast as it could be if the basic car could be legally modified.

The other objection that I have to spec cars is that the cost of playing is higher because there are no second and third tier cars in the class. Cars that cost half to a third of new cars.

It is fairly easy to tell which spec car a driver learned in by the way he drives a car such as a Lights. Most people when they get to the Lights level will not relearn basic driving skills. And it is nearly impossible to teach those drivers the fine skills of shock tuning in a car going 190 mph.

Those are some interesting points Steve. But I would also like to point out that most of us who had dreams of racing in indy car have at some point come to the realization that is not a realistic goal. As far as tier pricing, just about every FE out there can be bought for between $25k and $32k. Almost all of them can probably be competitive at the runnoffs with a fast driver. That's far less than a runoff competitive FF and probably 1/3 the running cost. FE isn't for everybody for sure, but this thread is about saving costs in open wheel cars. Well, FE helps the cost issue significantly and is a blast to drive. Even better is having plenty of racers in the same class show up to compete.

FF may be a great way to go for development, but if people can't afford it and guys aren't showing up .......

[Daryl DeArman]

Totally disagree. My friend's work their ass off, a couple 50+ hours a week, and none have brand new cars. Yes they spend money, but it is at things they can afford - which is not road racing.

I didn't say anything about them not working their ass off.

To them, autocrossing is racing and I have asked, and they reply every single time the reason they don't go road racing is the cost. This line of thinking is nothing different than with every new/old generation and the lack of understanding between the two. I see them working on their cars until 12am, spending money buying speed parts, and smiling like crazy dodging cones. I have asked several, "hey, why don't you go road racing and get above 50mph?!" Every. Single. Time. The number one answer is the cost.

If they really wanted to go road racing they could buy a used FV, a used F500, a used IT car and go road racing. Tow it on an open trailer behind a $4000 pick up and drive a '95 Honda Civic for a daily driver. The dollar amount isn't what's keeping them away, it is the perceived value the person spending the money gets for that dollar.

[Daryl DeArman]

So far I'm not racing. I don't have the budget for any of the classes I'd be interested in running. So for now I've got a track car that makes me happy. While it sucks for now, I'd hate to see good classes neutered just so I can join in.

Could I run F500 or FV? Probably. But the car is an important part of motorsports for me, and crippled or vastly outdated cars aren't my cup of tea.

You are making my point for me. The money is there. It is how you decide to spend it where SCCA Club Racing has missed the boat in attracting you and your friends. Which, by the way, aren't the norm.

[LJennings]

0

[LJennings]

]

[LJennings]

It won't happen. Even with the best Shoe the field won't be "smoked" as all the cars are really close with the Honda and breaking the draft simply doesn't happen.

I am not saying a 20 year old car can't win, it just won't be by much if it does at all.

If I had the time and money, and could persuade Reid Hazelton or Sam Beasley to drive, I would take you up on that bet.

[Steve Bamford]

If I had the time and money, and could persuade Reid Hazelton or Sam Beasley to drive, I would take you up on that bet.

Both great drivers, but don't discount the talent currently in the series either. I was also saying these cars do not break the draft and one driver can not totally get away. You may have missed understood what I wrote. Also both of the mentioned drivers have run in the series before and you simply can't just run away.

[S Lathrop]

Those are some interesting points Steve. But I would also like to point out that most of us who had dreams of racing in indy car have at some point come to the realization that is not a realistic goal. As far as tier pricing, just about every FE out there can be bought for between $25k and $32k. Almost all of them can probably be competitive at the runnoffs with a fast driver. That's far less than a runoff competitive FF and probably 1/3 the running cost. FE isn't for everybody for sure, but this thread is about saving costs in open wheel cars. Well, FE helps the cost issue significantly and is a blast to drive. Even better is having plenty of racers in the same class show up to compete.

FF may be a great way to go for development, but if people can't afford it and guys aren't showing up .......

Hope you don't have a big crash with the FE.

There is a well known FF driver who raced FE for a bit. He had a big shunt and the cost to repair the car left him speechless. It was way beyond anything he had ever had with his DB1.

The race car business is all about selling spare parts for the cars you produce. A manufacturer brakes even on the sale of a new car and maybe even looses some money. But depending on the class of car, you will sell spare parts equal to something like 25% of the original cost of the car every year the car is raced. In Indy lights the ratio was well north of 50%, even close to 100% in some series. With a spec car, you are required to buy the parts from the producer of the car. You can not use 'after market" parts or even make the parts yourself. How do you think those parts are priced when you have a monopoly in the market? It costs way less to replace a corner on a VD, Swift, or Citation because you have choices on who you give your business to. I know for a fact that some parts from Enterprises were marked up well over 200%. Many Swift parts were less expensive for the equivalent part for a SRF.

Over time, the purchase price of the car decreases in significance and the cost of racing and maintaining the car becomes the dominant issue.

[swiftdrivr]

I bought my DB-1 for $16,000, 20 years ago. Added a $3,500 CDS system, and upgraded to Fast Forward rear uprights. You can still buy one for about the same. I've had some minor crash damage, blown one motor, but most of the cash goes to tires and entry, food and fuel. I'm going part time next year, so instead of 6 weekends, I'll cut down to five. Not because the car cost too much, as it has been paid for long ago. Running cost are what are holding me back. I am not at the front much, but as long as I have one or two guys to run with, I suspect I get as much fun out of it as the guys leading the Pro series, for a ton less money. The bigger issue for me is attracting new racers. The car culture isn't as strong as it once was, the economy isn't helping, competition is greater [other classes, other options for your money]and there is a reason we are called "the secret car club of America." Track night seems a good move, but the best thing to attract new drivers is advertisement and a reasonable entry cost. $80,000 new cars are not "reasonable" for most anyone, but then, my car was nearly 15 years old when I got it. I'd love to see the pro series televised, both to watch it, but even more so for the marketing of FF. I doubt anyone is going to build a new, $30,000 or less, "race car for the average man" that made FF such a hit in the late 60s, but there are plenty of used ones for that price. Unfortunately, the young kids coming out of school don't really know about that, or even that we exist. Thats not the only problem, but it is a part of the problem.

[dsmithwc04]

Hope you don't have a big crash with the FE.

There is a well known FF driver who raced FE for a bit. He had a big shunt and the cost to repair the car left him speechless. It was way beyond anything he had ever had with his DB1.

The race car business is all about selling spare parts for the cars you produce. A manufacturer brakes even on the sale of a new car and maybe even looses some money. But depending on the class of car, you will sell spare parts equal to something like 25% of the original cost of the car every year the car is raced. In Indy lights the ratio was well north of 50%, even close to 100% in some series. With a spec car, you are required to buy the parts from the producer of the car. You can not use 'after market" parts or even make the parts yourself. How do you think those parts are priced when you have a monopoly in the market? It costs way less to replace a corner on a VD, Swift, or Citation because you have choices on who you give your business to. I know for a fact that some parts from Enterprises were marked up well over 200%. Many Swift parts were less expensive for the equivalent part for a SRF.

Over time, the purchase price of the car decreases in significance and the cost of racing and maintaining the car becomes the dominant issue.

I completely see your point Steve. However, there are plenty of used parts for FE that are cheap. An FE frame just sold for under $500 that was never used. Body parts are available used and very cheap. I find it hard to believe that the FE is any more expensive to repair than any other car in the price range. Yes, Enterprises does not give any breaks on new prices for parts but we also don't ever have to worry about buying the next super new go-fast bits which are WAY more expensive than new stock FE parts.

I also agree that FE is not for everyone, as I mentioned earlier, but as far as this thread is concerned I just don't see how anybody can argue against the FE being a very attractive option for those wanting to run fast cars, in a competitive class, for relatively low cost. Maybe driving an FE won't help get to Indy Car, but then again anybody worried about cost in SCCA club racing isnt' exactly eyeing Indy Car.

FE is the best option available at the moment for many of the problems that plague open wheel club racing IMHO. However, if a better option comes along ( spec tires, engine, gearbox, shocks with atleast 2 way adjustability, and development chassis and aero and not to mention parts being available from more than one source) then I would gladly look into it. I'm not married to FE and I will never say there can't be a better option. There just isnt a class that accomplishes what FE can for the price, period.

Some things FE can improve on includes allowing at least 2 way adjustable shocks instead of the current rebound adjustment only, more spring options, paddle shifting (because it could draw interest from younger folks looking for technology that makes them think of F1?), gear ratio change options. That would be easy stuff to change and greatly improve the class I think. Maybe even allow aero development although this could greatly increase cost to run.

[BLS]

Some things FE can improve on includes allowing at least 2 way adjustable shocks instead of the current rebound adjustment only, more spring options, paddle shifting (because it could draw interest from younger folks looking for technology that makes them think of F1?), gear ratio change options. That would be easy stuff to change and greatly improve the class I think. Maybe even allow aero development although this could greatly increase cost to run.

Pretty soon you'll have the same problems this thread is discussing

[dsmithwc04]

Pretty soon you'll have the same problems this thread is discussing

Definately a slipper slope.

[Steve Bamford]

You need paddles for attracting young individuals. All street sport cars come with them now so will be part of attracting new racers. Just my opinion at least. I know there are many that will disagree however I doubt you will find many under 30 that will disagree.

[Steve Bamford]

I am starting to think the F4 cars that Reid mentioned many posts ago would actually make a really good class. I wonder what a complete car would cost.

[BWC54]

I am starting to think the F4 cars that Reid mentioned many posts ago would actually make a really good class. I wonder what a complete car would cost.

Yeah, we need more Formula car classes.

[SpacemanSpiff]

I completely see your point Steve. However, there are plenty of used parts for FE that are cheap. An FE frame just sold for under $500 that was never used. Body parts are available used and very cheap. I find it hard to believe that the FE is any more expensive to repair than any other car in the price range. Yes, Enterprises does not give any breaks on new prices for parts but we also don't ever have to worry about buying the next super new go-fast bits which are WAY more expensive than new stock FE parts.

I also agree that FE is not for everyone, as I mentioned earlier, but as far as this thread is concerned I just don't see how anybody can argue against the FE being a very attractive option for those wanting to run fast cars, in a competitive class, for relatively low cost. Maybe driving an FE won't help get to Indy Car, but then again anybody worried about cost in SCCA club racing isnt' exactly eyeing Indy Car.

FE is the best option available at the moment for many of the problems that plague open wheel club racing IMHO. However, if a better option comes along ( spec tires, engine, gearbox, shocks with atleast 2 way adjustability, and development chassis and aero and not to mention parts being available from more than one source) then I would gladly look into it. I'm not married to FE and I will never say there can't be a better option. There just isnt a class that accomplishes what FE can for the price, period.

Some things FE can improve on includes allowing at least 2 way adjustable shocks instead of the current rebound adjustment only, more spring options, paddle shifting (because it could draw interest from younger folks looking for technology that makes them think of F1?), gear ratio change options. That would be easy stuff to change and greatly improve the class I think. Maybe even allow aero development although this could greatly increase cost to run.

Because my posts on Saturday were made in my free time while building a fiberglass mold and tearing back into the interior of my track car. While I get the idea behind spec series, to me, and I suspect others, motorsports aren't solely a driving competition but an engineering one as well.

Honestly, if the spec tire thing is actually going to happen, running regionals might not be out of reach. But it would definitely involve that decade old van.

Steve: While I'm probably not typical, I can take or leave paddles. I definitely want a dog box, but sequential isn't necessary.

[2BWise]

Steve: While I'm probably not typical, I can take or leave paddles. I definitely want a dog box, but sequential isn't necessary.

Most in the target age range don't know the difference between a dog box and non. I recently had this discussion with a recent college and fsae grad about FF/FC cars. He said he wanted a sequential but didn't comprehend that the ld200 and such are dog boxes as well and don't require clutch usage either. Once I explained that the only difference is in shift pattern he no longer cared.

Spark notes, young guys don't know enough to really know why they want a sequential.

[DaveW]

...Honestly, if the spec tire thing is actually going to happen, running regionals might not be out of reach. But it would definitely involve that decade old van...

I'm still towing with my 41-YO 1974 G30 Chevy Van...

[Dennis McCarthy]

What everyone seems to think and agree upon, is that there seems to be a lack of desire and or dollars for newbies to commit to open wheel racing.

I've heard talk that the F4 thing will be the next thing introduced here in the US, who knows.
Regardless of the marketing hype, I know they won't be any cheaper spec or not, than running a current FF or FC. The only way they could be cheaper to purchase is if a major player such as a car company stepped up and subsidizes them.

What we all do know for sure is that if they are introduced, they will dilute the pool of available open wheel dollars even further (like Formula Lites) and will give every current chassis builder another good reason to pack it in as well.

Having owned one of the first FE (chassis 11) and now several FC's later, I can tell you unequivocally the FE was not really any cheaper to run than a Van Diemen Zetec FC. There is a much bigger market for used and new parts available at various price points that simply don't exist with FE. If you don't crash much, tires are always the biggest expense and you constantly need new ones in either class to run up front. We've heard countless argument here about spec tires in both directions, the fact remains tires are certainly one of the most substanial costs involved.

All that being said, good preparation and testing cost money regardless of the car make and model and that will always win out the majority of the time. From a club perspective the occasional young hotshoe who may show up every now and then and win in an older car is an anomaly that really never lasts long. They either find money and move up quickly and are gone or they simply get bored and burn out on doing the same old thing because they can't move up.

Frog may be right, we may be at the end of the party and the folks left sitting around just don't want to go home yet.

[Steve Bamford]

Yeah, we need more Formula car classes.

Agreed we do not need anymore classes. With that said some/many classes need to go away.

Also I would propose not to run these cars in alphabet soup class racing, they would need their own run group similar to the current pro series. Costs is one of the issues why people don't race, current classes being outdated are another but multi class racing has not been mentioned and is a huge draw back as well.

[dsmithwc04]

......

Spark notes, young guys don't know enough to really know why they want a sequential.

As I am one of these young guys, I 100% resent this statement. Anybody who thinks we young guys are an ignorant group needs to realize they are way out of their element. Hate to get into a generational argument, but I designed my own house on a computer (taught myself this process), spearheaded the build process and became my own general contractor (no prior experience), and paid myself about 100K (in equitable value of the home) to do it while taking no mortgage and working my day job (Forensics Analysis) and I was only 26 years old. I bought my nice, but not new, daily drivers cash and didn't have any help financially from anybody to do any of it. I use my nice, but older, class A RV to tow my FE to the track. I do all this on a meager salary as well. We aren't as dumb or useless as the media makes us out to be.

Now back on topic...

I agree that paddle shifting would be a great way to excite people who are on the fence on which class to race. I am not saying this makes a whole lot of sense, but I don't think it can be denied as a probable fact. I also agree that this wouldn't exactly make racing cheaper...

If you want a development class, it appears FF and FC (perhaps FB) are good ways to go. But again, this thread is about bringing people out to the track who normally can't afford the running costs of a COMPETITIVE car in FF,FC, FB. I think FE meets this demand for people who want to run competitively in a relatively cheap car for relatively cheap running costs. I could be wrong, but can a Zetec FC that is capable of winning the runoffs really be near the same as an FE that can win the runoffs? For sure a Kent FF can't come close right?

[nulrich]

I've been designing new products in a wide variety of fields for over 30 years. For something like a race car, which is heavily mechanical, production volume is the single biggest factor affecting manufacturing cost. (Software or low cost electronics is different.)

The manufacturing cost per car can easily be cut in half if you built 30 cars instead of five. Not only that, but your development and tooling cost has to be amortized over your expected production volume, which heavily favors higher volumes.

One of the reason Dallara dominates spec classes worldwide, despite producing in a high cost labor market, is that they've refined the "parts bin" approach to car design and production to a high art. The current IndyCar, for example, uses many parts that are either directly taken from the GP2 car or slightly modified.

The current F4 cars are supposedly being sold for something under $60k "ready to race." These are full carbon monocoque cars that meet the latest F3 safety standards and have all the modern bells and whistles, including sequential shift gearboxes (from Sadev, who makes hundreds of an essentially equivalent model for many different low level formula classes). There is simply no way any manufacturer can compete with that price when you are making a few cars at a time.

Of course, this model only works with very specific constraints:

- You have to build a lot of cars at once to realize the savings, meaning someone has to step up and buy a production lot of 20-30 cars. Usually this is a sanctioning body like DAMS in Australia or Jonathan Palmer (BRDC) in the UK.

- They are, by nature, spec cars with very strict limits on aero development and allowable modifications. Typically you can adjust suspension geometry within limits defined by the adjustment points on the gearbox/chassis, camber, caster, ride heights and wing angles but nothing else. Definitely not a "development class" like FF/FC or the pro equivalents are currently.

- The parts are usually controlled and from a single source. Even with cost caps, this means the parts will necessarily be higher cost and/or lower quality than with a competitive market situation. That's really the only way the constructors can make money (give away the razor, sell lots of razor blades).

- Because they are carbon tub cars a serious crash will result in a VERY large parts bill. A replacement tub is on the order of $20k, and normally even minor tub damage requires stripping the car completely and sending it out to be repaired.

- The longevity of the cars is somewhat questionable. It's well known that composite tubs can get "softer" over time, necessitating replacement, but with modern design tools perhaps this tendency has been mitigated.

The F4 approach seems like an ideal solution for certain countries and certain types of pro series. Not sure it would work in this country and it doesn't seem suited to the average amateur or semipro racer.

[Daryl DeArman]

As I am one of these young guys, I 100% resent this statement. Anybody who thinks we young guys are an ignorant group needs to realize they are way out of their element. Hate to get into a generational argument, but I designed my own house on a computer (taught myself this process), spearheaded the

If the "generalization" is clearly made as a "generalization" and you don't fit that mold; there is no need to be resentful. Here's another generalization about this younger generation: Feelings get hurt too easily/too easily offended.

Auto-shop isn't taught at most high schools anymore.

Dad most likely is spending too much time working and pays somebody-else to perform maintenance and repairs on his car.

96.1% of the new vehicles sold in America are AUTOMATICS.

Each and every generation has things they are ignorant of. You designed your own house on a computer....do you think my Grandfather could have done that 15 years ago? He couldn't even get the clock on the VCR to quit blinking. He could fix a tractor with some bailing wire and duct tape though.

[reidhazelton]

If the "generalization" is clearly made as a "generalization" and you don't fit that mold; there is no need to be resentful. Here's another generalization about this younger generation: Feelings get hurt too easily/too easily offended.

Maybe another reason young guys don't show up cause they don't want to deal with this ****.

Continually crapping on the people you want to come to the races doesn't work. Telling younger folks what is wrong with them rather than listening to what they say they want will guarantee they stay in AutoX, NASA, ect.

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe another reason young guys don't show up cause they don't want to deal with this ****.

Continually crapping on the people you want to come to the races doesn't work.

I'm not there, so I can't be the one keeping them away....and if you consider saying "many of the younger generation get their feelings hurt too easily" as being crapped on....you are making my point.

Bottom line, the cars aren't attracting the younger generation en masse, for a multitude of reasons.

[dsmithwc04]

If the "generalization" is clearly made as a "generalization" and you don't fit that mold; there is no need to be resentful. Here's another generalization about this younger generation: Feelings get hurt too easily/too easily offended.

Auto-shop isn't taught at most high schools anymore.

Dad most likely is spending too much time working and pays somebody-else to perform maintenance and repairs on his car.

96.1% of the new vehicles sold in America are AUTOMATICS.

Each and every generation has things they are ignorant of. You designed your own house on a computer....do you think my Grandfather could have done that 15 years ago? He couldn't even get the clock on the VCR to quit blinking. He could fix a tractor with some bailing wire and duct tape though.

Daryl, perhaps I misunderstood your message but you do know that I did not mistake "generational" and "generalization". I was indeed speaking of age groups and not general statements. Perhaps you missed the my point.

[reidhazelton]

I'm not there, so I can't be the one keeping them away....and if you consider saying "many of the younger generation get their feelings hurt too easily" as being crapped on....you are making my point.

Bottom line, the cars aren't attracting the younger generation en masse, for a multitude of reasons.

Or just pointing out a fact people don't like to be treated like they suck. There is that.

[Daryl DeArman]

Telling younger folks what is wrong with them rather than listening to what they say they want will guarantee they stay in AutoX, NASA, ect.

I am not saying what's wrong with them. I am saying why our current selection of products isn't attracting them.

If they can afford to AutoX a WRX with $15K in mods they can road race a FV, Club Ford or IT car. Saying they can't afford to road race simply isn't true. The bottom line is we need to listen to WHY they aren't willing to spend that money road racing instead of AutoX that WRX.