Car Costs - 1984 to 2015

[BURKY]

I seem to remember someone setting track records... and Damn near winning the Runoffs with a 92 VD. Apparently with NO Data and a FORD... Swifts have also proven to be very competitive on a (Majors) level this year.

The guys that are racing the PRO series are going to do whatever they can to win...no matter the cost... I personally don't believe this is stopping people from competing in the class on a national level, if anything it's helping.

Fwiw, the FF feild is alive and growing in the SE... Come join us! You don't need a 80k$ car.

[dsmithwc04]

Why didn't you use SRF as a comparison of spec class popularity?

Because I said "fast open wheel". SRF doesn't fit that description.

FF isn't an open development class but sure isn't a spec class either. I'm not saying it needs to become spec as I don't really have a dog in the fight. I was merely pointing out the fact that some of the guys apparently want some things in FF to be I would call SPEC. I only suggested FE as it is faster, cheaper, looks cool. Plus you can't outspend people to be faster.

[Dennis McCarthy]

It's the proverbial "How come we don't have cheap racing anymore" question again, it must be snowing somewhere....

[BURKY]

When the Kart racers are spending 200k to be competitive at a top level. I don't think money is the issue.

[Purple Frog]

I have come to believe that one is either spending all the money they can to keep racing, or... they are on Apexspeed complaining about how much racing costs.

... and OBTW, when you are of the age to collect social security, getting upside down in a kart does not appear to be a good option.

[Spengo]

When the Kart racers are spending 200k to be competitive at a top level. I don't think money is the issue.

That's only for like, world championships where you have to travel overseas and all that. The F1 level of go karting. I'm competitive on a regional level with a 2011 chassis and just keeping the engine fresh, which doesn't take much for a Stock Honda. Won last year in the northwest sprint stock class with only one new piston. Currently 3rd in super stock this year with just a new pipe so far. Plus the other expendables like tires, fuel, brakes, and a little bit of damage repair of course which all adds up. But even so it's more along the lines of four figures, not anywhere near six, and that's including traveling down to California to do a couple of their races just for fun. Even if you want to go compete for a national championship that's only one race where you have to travel really far away, it's not like doing an entire season of cross country travel.

Now, I do tend to do things on the cheap side but assuming you spent absolutely as much money possible and always made sure you had the latest equipment, bought new engines and a chassis every year and the whole nine yards I really can't imagine anyone getting much over $20k in operating costs in this country.

Not many people go for the $200k world championship karting thing from the USA. Why would you when for that kinda cash you could instead do an entire season in professional USF2000? (probably budget tier but you get what I mean)

[alangbaker]

I've oval raced for years, and switched over to road racing because a new track opened up and we decided to try it. We've oval raced street stocks, late models, super late models, and legend cars. We currently libre race a heavily modified legend car because it is soo cheap to run. I've love road racing and I'm currently building another formula car. When looking at the different kinds of formula cars, I looked into FF. I understand how competitive FF is and appreciate that. I really do. But here is the bottom line. FF use old (Ford) or lame (Honda) motors that don't sound like race engines, skinny tires, no wings, and are stupid expensive. When I first saw the price of a competitive FF I couldn't believe it. I know you may not like to hear this, but FF has little to no sex appeal. ( figuratively speaking of course)

The only real draws I can see for FF are that the racing is close, and the pro series is still a stepping stone (although not a necessity).

If you want a race car that sounds better, looks better, goes faster, costs less and is somewhat recent (technology wise) your going to go somewhere else.

Please don't take this as an insult to any of you. I'm a young man and I don't believe I'm the only one that sees this when looking at FF.

There's some truth in what you say about the "sexiness" factor. We've had generations grow up on racing where the top cars are all running wings. A friend of mine has now started coming out to the track to crew for me and has hinted that he might actually start driving at some point...

...but he's already looking down that paddock to the FCs.

[SpacemanSpiff]

The biggest problem is that they don't sell anywhere near enough cars. If you want cheap cars, make it so people replace cars every couple years. Billet uprights are a result of the lack of volume to cast them (and possibly closing of foundries). Same goes for transaxles. Hewland only gets to sell a few a year, requiring setup intensive parts and big castings. It doesn't help that there are a bunch of other players in the game spreading out volume.

If you don't want to force drivers to buy new cars you need to look at other ways to bring costs down (or volume up). Get multiple constructors to share at least some parts or work to outsource some components. If I was going to build more than one chassis I would definitely be looking to have many of the components made in Taiwan.

I have to agree with the assessment that restricting suspension and data probably results in more expensive cars rather than cheaper (unless you're willing to seal shocks and regulate testing).

It's not just the car cost. When walking around NASA west coast nationals last year the most intimidating thing wasn't the almost exclusively nicely prepped cars, but the equally expensive tow setups to go with them. There's a great photo of the Chaparral guys backing one of their cars off an open trailer, and I kind of wonder what's changed.

Also, don't forget that while I can't afford an FA doesn't mean that I want a compromised chassis with steel wheels and the aero of a brick. A lot of this comes from beginning to research a sports racer build.

[Doug FST 5]

First - the quoted prices for brand new cars in the mid-80's is about the same as the sticker price of a brand new 'Vette in the same era. I understand the argument that the cost of new chassis is expanding at a greater rate than inflation but it's still pretty much in line with the cost of a new 'Vette.

Second - if you really want to race and can't afford the newest (or the not so new) FF or FC technology there are plenty of altermatives. For me the challenge is to make the very best out of what I have, not put myself in a position where I would struggle financially to recover from a shunt. I've been doing this stuff every season for nearly 25 years (yes I know I'm a youngster compared to many of you) in FV then FST. Sure, the big cars are attractive but for me it's more important to participate as often as I can. The FST is simply something I can afford much more readily.

$15K in shocks? Yikes! I had both front shocks fall off at Grattan in 2010 (long story best told with a cold beverage) and it only cost me 2 seconds a lap....

Doug FST 5

[S Lathrop]

I am late to this discussion but this spring I spent some time looking at what it would take to put a formula car on the track that would have FF performance, but cost about $30,000 to $35,000. Why that target cost? Because that was about what a new FF cost relative to medium income in the mid 1970's when we were increasing the car counts by 100 cars per year.

Sadly, it can't be done with an automobile based drive train. An engine, bell housing and transmission, ready to go will cost a minimum of $20,000 and more likely $25,000. Compare that to a crate 600 cc bike engine and transmission for about $6,000 and the same horse power. An open differential rear drive assembly cam be added for another $1,500.

Shocks: $800 is reasonable but all 4 shocks must be dimensionally the same. In Indy lights with the Dallara chassis we used a Koni shock. We could use any standard Koni stock valving setup we wanted. Penske makes some shocks that would make a good standardized shock for a bit less.

Wheels and tires: use the same combination on all four corners. With the exception of the front lower a-arms, all the suspension I drew was interchangeable side to side and the uprights were largely interchangeable end to end and side to side. The suspension was all round tubing. To keep wheel costs down, I drew something similar to the Stock car wide five wheel and hub combination. The wheels were just steel rims with mounting lugs. They bolted to a wheel center. The wheel rim itself would be relatively inexpensive to replace.

When I got the design done, I found that the dimensions of the car were very close to those of the Zink Z10. A car built to the limitations I imposed on this car would look like a modern FF and possibly be a bit quicker because the power to weight would be a bit less.

Bottom line; you can't get the low cost racing that FF originally provided with the FF design concept today. But a car that is very close to what an early FF, now CFC, cost with the performance level of a current FF is quite doable.

One characteristic of the early FF was the interchangeability of parts between the various makes of cars. Most cars were either British-Leland or VW based. A Zink Z10 and Lola 342 had a lot of interchangeable parts because they were VW based. FV is a similar model where there is an even greater standardization of parts among the various manufacturers. Instead of a one manufacturer "spec", a new class should be built around a box of standardized parts.

Data logging does nothing to make the car go faster after you leave the pits. So if someone wants to spend $20,000 or what ever on data, what difference does it make. Data loggers don't drive the car. Drivers do and the data logger is not wired into the drivers, yet.

I am not proposing a new class. I put this up to illustrate what it would take to have a class that people are trying to turn FF back into. And you ain't going to get it with a one cash register spec class.

[M.Sauce]

I was quoted 94k for ready to go Spectrum with a Honda. In just 5 years the price of a new racecar ready to go has almost doubled. Why? Could it be a 20k engine? That surely is part of it. Top Kent 6.5-10K ,chassis from Piper, Van Dieman or Citation 5 years ago was around 40k. The Spectrum roller was 62.5 k. But ready with a Honda engine is 94K.What has changed? If the Kent motor was a little faster you might have more cars to race against because at these prices only a hand full of cars will be sold. If these new cars with the Honda engine are truly faster as Mr. Lockwood says,the class is dead unless there are plenty of customers with 80-90k for a entry level class. The list of probable customers for a 90k priced racecar in my opinion are few and far between.

[2BWise]

Are we confusing usage? A Lola, DB-1, or Reynard back in the day were for club racers right? Nowadays these cars are going to pro teams. They are supporting the purchase of these cars and then pass that cost down to their renters. I don't see many guys at the club level purchasing new cars as the infrastructure to pass along the cost doesn't exist.

[dsmithwc04]

I was quoted 94k for ready to go Spectrum with a Honda. The list of probable customers for a 90k priced racecar in my opinion are few and far between.

Wow, $94k for a FF???? You can buy a Swift 014 FA and run it for a couple seasons for that price. Heck, you can buy a nationally competitive F1000 and run for a season in the pro races. There must be something about FF that I just don't understand for guys to be spending near 6 figures on a dinosaur class.

[S Lathrop]

Mike;

There are a few Kent motors that will beat a Honda. What do you think those motors cost?

And maybe if the Honda wasn't around, the pressure for really good Kent motors would push the Kent price way beyond the Honda price.

I happen to think that the Honda motor has done more to keep FF popular than any thing in the last 20 years. Now anyone can have really good power.

From a car builder's point, the Honda is nothing like $20,000 you keep quoting. It may cost that much for you to convert one of your own cars to Honda power. But the difference in cost to build a top flight car with a new Kent vs. a new Honda of equal power is negligible.

In laying down a bike engine car, I also drew up a Honda powered FF car using most of the components from the bike powered car.. If I am building a FF only chassis instead of a FF/FC/FB chassis as I do currently and Spectrum does, the FF cost can be a lot less. And I think the FF only car will be ever so slightly faster.

[SEComposites]

At the risk of thread creep it does make me think how F600 missed the boat with their cars.

[problemchild]

From a car builder's point, the Honda is nothing like $20,000 you keep quoting. It may cost that much for you to convert one of your own cars to Honda power. But the difference in cost to build a top flight car with a new Kent vs. a new Honda of equal power is negligible.

I just priced a Honda engine and it was less than half of the $20K number that Mike keeps throwing out there as fact. I was including shipping and the shop time to put the racing parts on the crate engine, but not blueprinting.

I'm much more interested in keeping other horses in the barn than returning this one, but I have to correct this exaggeration. Carry on ......

[reidhazelton]

$13k per Honda site. See here; http://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/rac...r=06000F21SD20 But hey, this is far more fun when we make up our own numbers!

Add $3500 to blueprint it and you're at $16.5k, and add a bellhousing adapter plate. Not $20k, but not $10k either. For what you get, $16k is a pretty good deal compared to the Ford. That will pay for itself over a couple seasons in rebuilds if you count the cost of a Ford new. Where it is a bad deal is when you look at bike engined cars as Steve L pointed out.

So when do we talk about parity between a bike powered Formula F and Hondas/Fords??

But back to the topic. I am a little surprised at the preponderance of people who are happy to accept $80k FFs when there was such a massive fervor over a low cost tire. One time costs are ok, but repetitive expense is not? The 'horse was out of the barn' with the low cost tire issue, but that seems to have been corralled.

Is it worth trying to corral other costs or are we happy with $80k cars?

[M.Sauce]

Mike;

There are a few Kent motors that will beat a Honda. What do you think those motors cost?

And maybe if the Honda wasn't around, the pressure for really good Kent motors would push the Kent price way beyond the Honda price.

I happen to think that the Honda motor has done more to keep FF popular than any thing in the last 20 years. Now anyone can have really good power.

From a car builder's point, the Honda is nothing like $20,000 you keep quoting. It may cost that much for you to convert one of your own cars to Honda power. But the difference in cost to build a top flight car with a new Kent vs. a new Honda of equal power is negligible.

In laying down a bike engine car, I also drew up a Honda powered FF car using most of the components from the bike powered car.. If I am building a FF only chassis instead of a FF/FC/FB chassis as I do currently and Spectrum does, the FF cost can be a lot less. And I think the FF only car will be ever so slightly faster.

Steve- I called and got the prices last week. No BS. It's not what it cost the builders it matters what it cost the competitors. 94k is the quote. Telling the Kent guys that there motors are competitive won't change what's really happening on the track. 20k for a motor is what they said they sell them for.

[BWC54]

$13k per Honda site. See here; http://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/rac...r=06000F21SD20 But hey, this is far more fun when we make up our own numbers!

Hey Reid, you missed the fine print at the bottom.

[2BWise]

But back to the topic. I am a little surprised at the preponderance of people who are happy to accept $80k FFs when there was such a massive fervor over a low cost tire. One time costs are ok, but repetitive expense is not? The 'horse was out of the barn' with the low cost tire issue, but that seems to have been corralled.

I'm ok with big one time costs. I can afford it or not; that meaning I can afford to wad it up and walk away. And in this case I know I can't afford a new car, so buying an older car is my fate. I'm ok with that.

But I want to be out racing and it's the running cost that will be what keeps me off the track.

[M.Sauce]

The quote from the Spectrum dealer in Canada I think was 20k for a Spectrum ready,Hasselgren blue printed motor.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Okay if $13k is too much for a Pro series Honda engine, what about adding a line for a stock L15A7 (Fit engine)? Ebay shows a couple dozen of them going for about $600 a pop. Sure it's not the sexy dry sumped HPD goodness, but it's the same engine for a manageable price. Would the deeper oil pans make the existing conversions impossible? I get that there's more in the cost than those two things, but it might be a starting point.

[TimH]

I'm ok with big one time costs. I can afford it or not; that meaning I can afford to wad it up and walk away. And in this case I know I can't afford a new car, so buying an older car is my fate. I'm ok with that.
But I want to be out racing and it's the running cost that will be what keeps me off the track.

[problemchild]

$13k per Honda site. See here; http://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/rac...r=06000F21SD20

That is not buying an engine, That includes a car conversion kit. When you are building a new car, that supposedly costs 94K, nobody is spending $20K to put an engine in it. Your $3500 blueprinting charge is $200% high as well. Talk about making up numbers.

Instead of bitching about the high costs, make some suggestions. Other than tires, I don't know how you cut costs.

In many parts of the country, people are enthusiastically racing their FF cars, and having fun in a revived class. In other areas, people are parking their cars and whining about $20K engines.

Ironically, I keep taking time from working on our kent cars, to state truths about the Honda engines. I am working long hours this week to put a 32 year old kent garage queen back on track after 12 years of sitting. Why not?

[M.Sauce]

Greg- Who blue prints your engines? I was quoted 3500.00 to prepare a Honda engine. I did not make up the number. I do see that Honda offers other kits now and that should be good for other chassis other than Swift and Van Dieman.

[reidhazelton]

That is not buying an engine, That includes a car conversion kit. When you are building a new car, that supposedly costs 94K, nobody is spending $20K to put an engine in it. Your $3500 blueprinting charge is $200% high as well. Talk about making up numbers.

What is the conversion kit then? Is that not the wiring and ecu in that? I picked the generic engine kit as there cannot be chassis specific parts in that. That $3500 price is an invoiced price. Made up? Nice assumption.

Instead of bitching about the high costs, make some suggestions. Other than tires, I don't know how you cut costs.

You seem to have missed the very first post, and several others where I made suggestions and asked what others thought. Bitching? Where are your suggestions?

[M.Sauce]

I seem to remember someone making the statement about how they would not appreciate having invested all this money in a new car and new engine package to run the same speed as an older car with a Kent. I would think that that statement is relative in some way to the cost of racing a FF. I agree with Reid I certainly meant no harm all I was doing was repeating what was told me when I inquired about a new car. I recently had all my stuff stolen including my daughters DB6. We were quite happy to run it with our Kent motor even though I feel the Honda package is quicker at most tracks. I am not attacking the competitors as much as I am realizing that when we buy another car for my daughter we will have to spend near 50k for a 2-4 year old car with a Honda. That is the reality. Maybe that 94k I mentioned earlier is what it should cost based on current economics, but if it is FF will not survive the sticker shock.

[TimH]

for my daughter we will have to spend near 50k for a 2-4 year old car with a Honda.

I'd have grabbed that DB3 if my feet would fit.

[SpacemanSpiff]

What is the conversion kit then? Is that not the wiring and ecu in that? I picked the generic engine kit as there cannot be chassis specific parts in that. That $3500 price is an invoiced price. Made up? Nice assumption.



You seem to have missed the very first post, and several others where I made suggestions and asked what others thought. Bitching? Where are your suggestions? Your posts are frequently telling people they are idiots and you are the only intelligent person here.

The conversion kit includes at least a dry sump, bell housing, transmission input shaft, intake, hoses, harness and ECU (off the HPD site). A new car would need a fair amount of that regardless, although presumably the Kent's setup wouldn't be as complex. The $13k kits all seem to be chassis specific, so those would have chassis components as well, the kit without that stuff looks to be about $9300, which while pricey, isn't out of line for the above parts. New engines are $3k. All costs reference the HPD site.

Allowing a stock sump and intake, you might see that price come down a few thousand (my guess is $4000). $600 engines to get out there, $3k engines if winning is your goal. I suspect you'd still need a better ECU as any restrictor plate would be havoc for a stock ECU. This would almost certainly be cheaper than doing anything with a Kent on a new build, and I suspect the full package is close.

[reidhazelton]

Real numbers.

Greg, your price of "less than half" of $20k for a blueprinted engine is not accurate and disingenuous. That is accurate if you don't include an upper intake, throttle body, MAP sensor, chassis loom, engine loom, and ECU as you were told. So yeah, you sure can do a Honda for under $10k, but you won't have the above parts.

Quicksilver quotes blueprinting at $2k, maybe a bit more if it is a junkyard engine and you need valve seals, bearings, and maybe some rings. $2k-$3,000. 200% off. Uh, not really. The difference in cost is new v used engines. Used engine costs less, but cost more to build.

Hasselgren quotes building a crate engine with bluepringing, CNC valve work, and dyno time at $4,848. They said the kit would be about $12,500 depending on chassis.

Real numbers, and anyone can call Quicksilver or Hasselgren and get the same.

Ok, enough of that BS.

Back to topic, it seems that some feel they are not 'front runners' and are ok with racing what they can afford and being wherever they maybe be in the field. This leads to the question, IF you could have a car that was $50-60k and 'front running' would that interest that person over buying a used car for $20k?

If someone is happy to buy the speed they can afford, knowing they will be hard pressed to win, why are the less expensive Fords being parked? Tire cost? Entry costs? Other operating costs?

We might be honing into something there that it is not car cost that is driving people away, but the cost to run them. Thoughts?

[reidhazelton]

I seem to remember someone making the statement about how they would not appreciate having invested all this money in a new car and new engine package to run the same speed as an older car with a Kent. I would think that that statement is relative in some way to the cost of racing a FF. I agree with Reid I certainly meant no harm all I was doing was repeating what was told me when I inquired about a new car. I recently had all my stuff stolen including my daughters DB6. We were quite happy to run it with our Kent motor even though I feel the Honda package is quicker at most tracks. I am not attacking the competitors as much as I am realizing that when we buy another car for my daughter we will have to spend near 50k for a 2-4 year old car with a Honda. That is the reality. Maybe that 94k I mentioned earlier is what it should cost based on current economics, but if it is FF will not survive the sticker shock.

Mike, I spoke with Hasselgren directly and your numbers are mostly correct. Here is how. When Spectrum orders an engine, they buy it complete as a kit with ECU, wiring, ect from Hasselgren. They have time in ordering it and mark it up. You or I can order a kit for the same price as Hasselgren, except when they buy it from Honda and sell it to Spectrum Canada there is a mark up.

Kit is $10k, plus $5k to build, add in shipping a couple times and the Hasselgren mark up, and you are close to $18k. Maybe there is some Spectrum mark up as well.

[TimH]

If someone is happy to buy the speed they can afford, knowing they will be hard pressed to win, why are the less expensive Fords being parked? Tire cost? Entry costs? Other operating costs?
We might be honing into something there that it is not car cost that is driving people away, but the cost to run them. Thoughts?

Certainly true for me. I bought a CF because:

1) A local group of guys running at nearby tracks (travel costs)

2) agreed to run DOT tires (something I decided two decades ago was a minimum criterion for affordability).

Entry costs are real, but nothing compared to the two factors above. Operating costs on a Kent (especially when an idiot novice blows it up) were higher than expected and a Honda would probably have netted a lot less, but putting one into a 1970s CF is a little extreme.

I doubt I will EVER run at the pointy end. I've seen how badly a great driver in an RF81 can embarrass very good drivers in newer equipment. Maybe a few hundred more hours of seat time and I'll change my mind. Until then, why spend the money? Especially since I'm currently running very similar lap times with quite a few others?

Oh, and one more thing. Another of my minimum criteria was a dog-ring box. Motorcycle engines and sequential boxes may be faster and cheaper but aren't nearly as much fun. Otherwise I'd have found a Legends group.

[problemchild]

I just priced a Honda engine and it was less than half of the $20K number that Mike keeps throwing out there as fact. I was including shipping and the shop time to put the racing parts on the crate engine, but not blueprinting.

I'm much more interested in keeping other horses in the barn than returning this one, but I have to correct this exaggeration. Carry on ......

As I said. Not blueprinting. My numbers were absolutely correct, not exaggerated, or inflated with car conversion costs. I'm not shopping. I have done 4 engine builds.

If you have a roller FF car that takes a Honda engine, put the race parts on yourself, as anyone who can prep a FF car is capable of doing, you will spend much less than $10K putting that engine in your car. If you pay a shop to install the parts, and put the engine in the car, I can see the cost approaching the $10K range, as it would if you did the same procedure with a kent car.

I do not endorse selling newbies $14K kent engines, but I do endorse people going the Honda route, and doing conversions that may have net costs (after selling off take off parts) over $10K, perhaps approaching $15K if the car needs chassis mods. I do not apologize for that.

Now back to the whining and exaggerating

[reidhazelton]

.

[Steve Bamford]

Found this in another thread:

I have the original advertisement comparing the Van Diemen, Swift, Reynard and Lola. The original list price for the rolling chassis was $14,950. The Swift was $16,400, Reynard $15,950, and the Lola $14,995.

I know this has been beat to death already. Given inflation, the cost of a similar car today should be $36.6k. I don't think you can get a basic, new roller for under $50k. It's been well documented on this forum that many cars exceed $80k.

Would fields increase if there were data logger bans, $800 price-cap on shocks, spec tires, sealed Hondas, sealed gearboxes (no fancy big $$$ stuff), spec ratios (maybe limit it to 10 legal ratios)?

I just happen to look up the price of a 1980 Vette and they started at 13 k before options. Now they are 79 k and above. Inflation doesn't work for American muscle either.

I have heard for numerous years very smart people in the racing world talk of building a car to offer th masses for 30 k and how it could be done. I still have yet to see it.

Racing overall in all classes have numbers that are down. FF seems to be oin better overall shape then others classes based on participation.

You don't need a 90 k car to win. It helps but you don't need it...just ask the guy who started this post.

[reidhazelton]

I just happen to look up the price of a 1980 Vette and they started at 13 k before options. Now they are 79 k and above. Inflation doesn't work for American muscle either.

I have heard for numerous years very smart people in the racing world talk of building a car to offer th masses for 30 k and how it could be done. I still have yet to see it.

Racing overall in all classes have numbers that are down. FF seems to be oin better overall shape then others classes based on participation.

You don't need a 90 k car to win. It helps but you don't need it...just ask the guy who started this post.

Bingo Steve. (I wouldn't say I won either, new stuff sure would be nice.)

What does seem to have answered the age ole myth of building a car for the masses is the new F4 car. Not $30k, but for about $50k you get a carbon tub and a really nice car.

http://www.mygale-cars.com/our-race-cars/formula-4/

Now...Imagine if someone took the wings off, put a Honda in it, and called it a FF. I bet that would be under $50k, ready to go. It's not $30k, but it's a hell of a lot better than $90+k. Regulate the gearboxes, seal the engines, ect and I think that is about as best as one can hope.

[Steve Bamford]

Bingo Steve. (I wouldn't say I won either, new stuff sure would be nice.)

What does seem to have answered the age ole myth of building a car for the masses is the new F4 car. Not $30k, but for about $50k you get a carbon tub and a really nice car.

http://www.mygale-cars.com/our-race-cars/formula-4/

Now...Imagine if someone took the wings off, put a Honda in it, and called it a FF. I bet that would be under $50k, ready to go. It's not $30k, but it's a hell of a lot better than $90+k. Regulate the gearboxes, seal the engines, ect and I think that is about as best as one can hope.

I wouldn't believe their quoted prices. Seen that game played before, just saying.

[Purple Frog]

"At the risk of thread creep it does make me think how F600 missed the boat with their cars."

Trying to compromise with the F5 guys, hurt the F600 growth. The short wheelbase, and probably the solid rear axle scared off some folks. It was truly the economic solution in terms of performance vs money.

[Jnovak]

"At the risk of thread creep it does make me think how F600 missed the boat with their cars."

Trying to compromise with the F5 guys, hurt the F600 growth. The short wheelbase, and probably the solid rear axle scared off some folks. It was truly the economic solution in terms of performance vs money.

We tried very hard to be a separate class but the Club would not allow it. We should have gone just regional but they would not even allow that. You never know what may happen though.

[Daryl DeArman]

I just happen to look up the price of a 1980 Vette and they started at 13 k before options. Now they are 79 k and above. Inflation doesn't work for American muscle either.

Nope. A 2015 Corvette stingray starts at $55K MSRP. 4.23x what it cost 35 years ago and about 873x more car.

A brand new top shelf FF wouldn't cost $90K if nobody bought them at that price.