Stop all the Honda conversions
Why not allow the kent engine to run a much lighter fly wheel to keep up with the Honda engine that is fuel injected that has a clear advantage over the Kent engine.
By allowing the Kent to run a lighter fly wheel it would makeup for the loss against the Honda out the corners or improve the bottom end. I don't see why the Honda guy's would object to equalizing the field. Then there will be no need to destroy a car by putting a Honda engine in it.
Alan
I am not an FF competitor, but when I watch races with Kents and Hondas, they look pretty darn equal to me. I've seen Kents win against great competition, and vis-versa. I've watched slower guys get Hondas, and they seem to be about the same speed. The Honda doesn't seem to be dominating, other than as the engine of choice in new car builds.
1:22 to 1:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMlI7NUFFII
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
I'm not anti-Honda, and think they have been good for the sport, but Alan may be on to something here. If that is where Honda has a clear advantage [and I've heard that from a lot of people in both camps], then this could be a fairly simple way of evening things up. Again, dynos should tell the tale, without interference from different vehicle aero, drive line drag, or driver's skill, confusing things.
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
I wonder what he would have said if that was a Ford Racing video?Originally Posted by stonebridge20
1:22 to 1:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMlI7NUFFII
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Thats why you trust Dyno Data, not opinion
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
Unless you have a VERY sophisticated dyno, acceleration rate measurements are either not possible, or at the least, not a good predictor of on-track acceleration.
Dave Weitzenhof
Stop all the Honda convesions
This is a dying sport everyone is struggling to get numbers and now we have added to the struggle allowing the Honda engine electronic fuel management which is clearly an advantage over 50 year old design.
How many have park good cars because they are no longer competitive and don't have or want to spend more money to keep up with the Honda.
If everyone who say they interested in seeing the sport stay alive and want to try and get the numbers back then why would they object to an inexpensive fix that could close the gap.
What if that's all it takes to make to make it work would you be interested in giving it a shot.
Alan
I wonder how hard it would be to work with Ford to develop a bolt on, spec fuel injection system?
Garey Guzman
FF #4 (Former Cal Club member, current Atlanta Region member)
https://redroadracing.com/ (includes Zink and Citation Registry)
https://www.thekentlives.com/ (includes information on the FF Kent engine, chassis and history)
Honda conversions
Alan,This is a dying sport everyone is struggling to get numbers and now we have added to the struggle allowing the Honda engine electronic fuel management which is clearly an advantage over 50 year old design.
How many have park good cars because they are no longer competitive and don't have or want to spend more money to keep up with the Honda.
If everyone who say they interested in seeing the sport stay alive and want to try and get the numbers back then why would they object to an inexpensive fix that could close the gap.
What if that's all it takes to make to make it work would you be interested in giving it a shot.
Alan
The "fix" should not be on the backs of the 1600 Fords owners, but be with the Honda's that were allowed to join the Formula Ford class.
Your comments reflect a perception that is shared by people on the peripheral who are not involved enough to understand all the factors. Yes the Honda has some advantages. Yes, the Kent has some advantages. They balance themselves out so that on any given day on any given track, either can win. Formula F is growing in parts of North America where people in that area have embraced the chance to increase the quality and quantity of competitors. In other areas, people make comments like yours. With no disrespect to the FF racer in the Honda commercial, he upgraded to a $75+K car from a $30K, and is not suddenly winning big FF races, and is getting beat by kent-powered FF cars. The current cost of FF racing is ridiculous, but the Honda part is the least ridiculous part of the equation.This is a dying sport everyone is struggling to get numbers and now we have added to the struggle allowing the Honda engine electronic fuel management which is clearly an advantage over 50 year old design.
How many have park good cars because they are no longer competitive and don't have or want to spend more money to keep up with the Honda.
If everyone who say they interested in seeing the sport stay alive and want to try and get the numbers back then why would they object to an inexpensive fix that could close the gap.
What if that's all it takes to make to make it work would you be interested in giving it a shot.
Alan
Alan, You should come out to some serious FF races, talk to the people running both engines, different cars, etc and educate yourself. The Pro event at Mid-Ohio in 2 weeks would be an excellent venue for anyone to view high level FF racing in North America. Contact myself, or anyone else involved, and we will fix you up with access.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Well aren't we full it. It doesn't surprise me the world is full of big egotism.
Alan
BS. I don't know who did Livingston's fords, but I have several kents and have had a Honda in my db-6, a new piper and now in a team car. as said both engines have their advantages, all small, but are pretty close overall. with a well tuned kent, there is no throttle lag. and even if there is you adapt. You are a driver, aren't you?
the kent cant beat the Hondas excuse is now over used and just the newest added to the list.
the bottom line is people do not have the disposable income to race like they think they have to. New tires, hot fuel, latest-greatest oil pump/cooling system, $10,000 shocks, etc. are not going to win the race for you. Seat time and proper engineering will.
I have done back to back with new radial vs first edition of last years pro tire and the lap times are very close. driving style is totally different. radial was like being back in a CF on R60s. my gut instinct is the radials will last just as long as the CF tires did.
John
John,
i was hopingto hear your take on it, since I knew you had experience with both motors. Just for clarification, are you comparing the Pro series adapter, the club adapter, or are both using the same adapter now? Or, do you think it matters?
Jim
Swift DB-1
Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.
They are both the same.
Alan,
since the chance anyone is going to show up at Mission with a front running Honda car is near zero, why is this an issue? Mission will always be a Club Ford track with its' short lap and low speed corners.
However...
If it is decided to give the Kent's a lighter flywheel to aid in acceleration, I would do it.
If it is decided to give the Hondas a smaller restrictor, I will not complain
If we are required to run a spec tire and it is the new radial, I will probably go to FB.
In the mean time, I will race my FF every opportunity that my work schedule allows.
John,If it is decided to give the Kent's a lighter flywheel to aid in acceleration, I would do it.
If it is decided to give the Hondas a smaller restrictor, I will not complain
If we are required to run a spec tire and it is the new radial, I will probably go to FB.
In the mean time, I will race my FF every opportunity that my work schedule allows.
Curious to ask why you do not like the radial. For the record, I could take it or leave it so I am not setting you for an argument on the tire, just curious as to why you would go to the extent of changing classes. I have run the radial obviously in the Pro Series on a modern chassis.
Steve Bamford
What I liked about going from CF to FF is the grip. The radial to me, on my car, has a much larger slip angle. The trick with the softer tire is to make it just as fast at the end, and the swift does that very well. I will admit that the 25s might actually be to soft, but I have made them live on the right side at savannah in July heat.
I would opt for FB over atlantics for cost and FC for speed.
Do you have a tire you would recommend for a spec tire or is that something you wish to remain open?
I like the looks of FB as well for speed vs price point. I find the availability of single group FF racing in the Pro Series as well as single run groups for FF here in Canada hard to walk away from. Also if I choose to go Club racing at specific events there are usually another ten plus FF's to compete with.
If FB were able to run with the Formula Race Promotions weekends then I would consider running an FB.
Steve Bamford
Steve,
If they would do the radial in 45 or possibly 35, that would be my choice. However they will not get the cycles of 60.
I agree about the pro series, but time constraints do not allow me to miss work that much. Remember, I do everything short of the engineering myself, so a 3 1/2 day race weekend in the ne is more like 7 days away from Florida work. If I was closer I would run more of them.
I think one of the other issues is there are no top level Kent's in the pro series. I don't think the amount of track time is as much a concern for kent performance as it was in years past. The new parts have added to longevity.
I also like the fact of more competition, but to be honest I find it more of a challenge to run a regional with the mixed classes and beat up on the FCs. It also enables me to practice race craft that I might not get in just ff field. Here in the SE there has been some what of a resurgence in the class and we are seeing larger fields, poor CF seems to be suffering because of it.
John
We will be seeing a Honda at Mission soon. I know you have struggled to get up to speed at Mission and find the track a little intimidating it is still a great track. What are you lap times at Seattle or Portland compared to the Honda powered cars Brad.
It's about preservation historical value of a race car. When they are converted they will never
get restore back to how they built them or raced them.
Even after they are converted chances are they still aren't competitive enough to run with the new cars so whats the point.
You can tune a ford all you want but as soon as you have weather change it's all out the window, but the Honda is able to correct that with it's management system.
A ford owner will have to spend way more than a honda driver to keep his motor as highly tuned but the honda driver for the most part just has to switch it on let the O2 sensor do it's thing so not exactly a level play field is it.
Alan
I don't struggle at Mission, I've won races there. I can't stand the place, it's just not entertaining to drive. Too busy with daughters track and field to race these days, but am still getting the car updated and ready. Mission is all about brakes and handling the bumps, not motors. Hope your series is doing well.
Brad
Top PIR Kent and Honda times are the same (1:19.xxx). A top Kent hasn't ran at pacific since repave and a Honda never ran there before.
Im not saying the Kent doesn't need a little help. Just pointing this out.
I think FC is dealing with similar issue with the Ztec and Pinto not so. You can restrict the Ztec on the top end still better than the Pinto on the bottom end. The Pinto could use the help by lightening the fly wheel to keep up with the Ztec.
How is it that the majority of SCCA open wheel classes have contentious issues!? Formula Ford vs Fit, Pinto vs Zetec, 500 vs 600. It's about time FB fired up a controversy so as not to feel left out. All of which are extremely off putting to newcomers by the way.
It's not just an SCCA, or even racing issue, just human nature. Pick any subject from vintage cars to horseshoes, there's complaining and disagreement !
Last edited by stephen wilson; 06.23.15 at 6:54 AM. Reason: spelling!
Arguments in racing are like arguments between Star Trek & Star Wars fans, only more nonsensical and ill-mannered.
FE guys seem to be pretty laid back........
Maris Kazia ,CEO
EuroKraft Inc Racing
Circuito do Sol
2014 Radical SR 3 RSX, 2x Tatuus FA 01
BMW HP2 .BMW K1200 R.Porsche 996 Carerra 4s
Your right and that's why SCCA in the northwest region is dying. In South Africa Formula Vee
is now running a golf liquid cooled engine so what would happen if they allow that the FV with it's old air cooled.
Cuz there's only like a dozen of 'em so they gotta stick together....
Sorry couldn't resist
Ethan Shippert
http://shippertracingservices.com
https://www.norwestff.com
"l'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace!"
I take it you haven't raced in south Florida.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd5yB9Vmd6I
some humour for this senseless thread
Here's the link to the thread discussing options for NWFC last year. http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64501
We got comparable dyno data, did some math, settled on 40 lb penalty to the zetecs, who zetec owners in the region felt should bear the brunt of any costs associated with equalizing.
Now as it stands, the zetec is easier to consistently drive faster, but I think the two are much more in line. Last weekend, An rf95 gave the 2011? (Audettes old car) F2000 championship winning zetec all it could handle. The zetec switch moved three guys closer to the front of the FC field up here and the fastest pinto is now the fastest zetec, but isn't driving away from everyone else now simply cause his pinto had more hp than any other in the region.
The zetec and fit are better racing packages than the Kent or the pinto. They are cheaper to run and more even across the spectrum. I have not seen dyno data for best Kent and fit, but from observation they are closer than zetec and best pinto. Kent may even be better.
If you think there needs to be a change get dyno numbers on both from the same dyno and integrate the curves to see how big a difference there is. Then, since you are a member of a conference club, have sccbc propose a rule change.
^this is why SCCA is failing in the NW. It is unable to meet the needs of this regions racer. Icscc does as it is completely member controlled and members are the ones voting. Additionally it is about 3 times cheaper to go to an Icscc weekend than an SCCA one (not for profit organization). 4 sessions for an SCCA majors weekend last year over three days, vs 8 sessions over three days for FC racers last week at Spokane. And Spokane was cheaper...
https://youtu.be/1RGohIKxc9M
How many Kent vs Honda threads do we need.
This is one of the best "Star Wars" related videos - EVER.....
Last edited by BeerBudgetRacing; 06.22.15 at 6:55 PM. Reason: Was beaten to the link
Too slow!!!
We should compile a list of all the current FF track records and see how the Honda is destroying all of them.... (tongue firmly in cheek)
Garey Guzman
FF #4 (Former Cal Club member, current Atlanta Region member)
https://redroadracing.com/ (includes Zink and Citation Registry)
https://www.thekentlives.com/ (includes information on the FF Kent engine, chassis and history)
May the force be with you.
Last edited by Kazis31; 10.28.15 at 10:30 PM.
Maris Kazia ,CEO
EuroKraft Inc Racing
Circuito do Sol
2014 Radical SR 3 RSX, 2x Tatuus FA 01
BMW HP2 .BMW K1200 R.Porsche 996 Carerra 4s
You guys are a little different in the Twin Peaks, Wayward Pines area of the country.
I applaud what you have done.
My question is this: Do you run just FC / FF races? or do you include other classes (GT, IT,EP,Px) as well?
In most places (like SoCal) we need every car in any class we can get to cover the cost of the track. Its different. I've looked and tracks down here start at $5000/day + workers + EMS ++ - so a 3 day weekend would cost somewhere in the $25k range - minimum.... a classic track like Laguna Seca is $15k+ per day.....
Getting a race group started is the problem....
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
