If it makes your head itch, there's always TriCalmOriginally Posted by TimH
If it makes your head itch, there's always TriCalm
China does not manufacture to the specs of their clients. If you had any experience in imports or manufacturing in China, you would know that the opposite is the norm. The Chinese manufacturers are notorious for taking short cuts, changing processes to save money without regard to the quality of the end product.
China helmets
I just picture a kid in some small village mixing resin in an old pot on the sidewalk while his father near by is laying up the mat over an old ball the kid used to play with. Meanwhile his sister is sucking on a trash bag with a recently completed helmet to "vacuum bag" it.
Ed
Oh the Asian manufacturing debate. How do we sum up the quality of the largest manufacturing nations on Earth in one pithy forum comeback.
My company does a substantial amount of business with a Taiwanese (admittedly not mainland Chinese) firm. We get as close to what we specify as we do with vendors here in the US. That said, we still inspect product from them (and our domestic vendors). It tends to take more involvement than a PO, and I probably wouldn't do it if I was order one part without developing a relationship with the vendor. Also, many companies own their own facilities in Asia to better control the quality of product coming out of them at lower labor rates. I've also driven by enormous factories dedicated to laying up bike frames outside of Taichung. My guess is they can fabricate a helmet.
As to ensuring they're all the same, I'd imagine that the company putting their name on the helmets is doing ongoing testing. In a law suit telling the jury that you tested the prototype one and assumed they'd all be like that doesn't go real far.
Our worst experience with a vendor in my time here has been with an injection mold shop in LA that decided they'd do what they want on whatever schedule they want, regardless of what we asked. So Go Team USA.
I own an HJC (Korean), purchased from Wine Country Motorsports. Amazing experience, they spent an hour or so getting me fit just right and custom ordering what I was looking for. I'd buy from them again because of it. All for a $400 helmet.
Patrick Cleary
Brian, you speak as if you have direct experience with this process. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, I don't see how you are any more likely to have problems with a Chinese manufacturing facility than one in the good 'ol USA. I've had many problems with US manufacturers through the cellular and computer forensic lab that I work with directly. You act as if what you describe is not possible in the USA, but I assure you it is possible everywhere.
I was stating in my earlier post that anybody simply stating that a product is junk based solely on the fact it was manufactured in China is ignorant, period.
I fail to see how adding a completely bogus and fabricated "picture" such as yours ads any useful information to a thread in much need of educated opinions.
Guys, lets agree to let this thread be educational with ACTUAL experience on this matter to attempt to come to a logical conclusion. Isn't there a part of this forum dedicated to pointless banter?
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
But, Burky...how do you protect your melon...? :-D
sorry...couldn't resist...
If you're active in the mountain biking community you know that failure of those carbon frames is pretty common.
Crossle 32F, Piper DF5 Honda
Please understand that I'm not trying to be obtuse, but is the root cause of those failures design, manufacture or end use? I have buddies who push the limits of cross country, and poor design is poor design, regardless of where its done. Also, as far as I'm aware, all but maybe a few boutique frames are made in Asia, so apparently it doesn't add that much risk.
Patrick Cleary
I agree, way off topic. I love China, they are wonderful, and produce great quality products. Kumbaya
Now back to helmets
When comparing one SA2015 helmet to another, we have no idea how well the examples performed in sample testing beyond earning a passing grade. A big selling point is the weight. Lighter and strong enough means they can command a premium.
Lighter is "safer" in the sense that it reduces the loads on the neck during a crash that a heavier helmet would have produced in the same event. It also helps with fatigue.
My bean-counter brain and my gut tell me that manufacturers are making helmets as light as they can (on the high end) and still get them to pass. If the tested samples pass with too large of margin for their liking, they'll make them lighter and "less strong". The less expensive helmets are fiberglass so there isn't a lot of weight competition there, they are just trying to make them as inexpensively as they can and still of sufficient quality.
You aren't paying for additional safety given the same standard (SA vs. FIA) you are paying for comfort, features and appearance. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to learn that the polycarbonate for the shields and the carbon-fiber cloth in even some of the "best" helmets are Chinese-sourced.
How quickly people forget yesterday's news headlines
From CBS News
The manufacturer left out an integral part of the carcass....
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/importer...se-made-tires/The recall is among a series of recent problems involving imports from China. Products including toys, toothpaste, seafood and pet food have been recalled.
From NBC
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26938647/n.../#.VbmRNnh385ABritish candy maker Cadbury announced a recall Monday of chocolate made in its Beijing factory after it was found to contain melamine, the industrial chemical that has sickened tens of thousands of Chinese children.
Simple Bing search yields dozens of true cases of safety recalls of China made products.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=safety+...281c18eeb839e6
A common complaint is that the first batch of product is made to spec, but as soon as the testing and QI are reduced to normal levels, the Chinese manufacturers start taking short cuts.
So the question is,"How much is your brain worth?"
Save a few bucks and risk permanent brain damage if you wish. We all know that we don't really need a helmet because it is always the other guy that will crash; right?
Much, much more than any helmet out there. Therefore, I must buy the best protection for the value.
Brian, there is no evidence to support that a more expensive helmet protects any more than cheaper helmet. A lighter helmet might make a difference, but I've seen helmets cost $1100 more and weigh 6 ounces more than the cheaper helmet.
Also, finding single events where a Chinese manufacturer took a shortcut is not enough to support wild and vague claims that you are asserting. Can we please keep this to informative data and less opinion.
If that is your proof, then I'm sure there is a story of American manufacturers taking shortcuts for every Chinese one you can find.
i.e.
Chevy knowingly sold cars with ignition design faults that ended up killing people. Is this proof that all American cars are junk? Of course not.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
I've got a question to which the answer may solve the cheap vs $$$ helmet debate.
Has there ever been a single crash that a driver was suspected of sustaining more head/brain trauma because the SNELL/FIA rated helmet they were wearing was inferior to any other SNELL/FIA helmet manufactured the same era?
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
I buy the best fit at a reasonable price and weight. It turned out to be more of an issue with Snell motorcycle helmets, oddly enough,
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
M/C helmets are garbage for the most part. DOT rating is a joke. A DOT helmet can be had at the local H-D stealership for 50.00. Dealer cost, about 15.00.
Chinese made.....not that it makes it bad
our Asian debt holders here.
For racing I bought the Bell GP2 , but I have to add that a HJC motorcycle helmet saved my life/noggin one day. It was put to a severe test.
God is my pilot, I'm just the loose nut behind the wheel !
+1
GP2 best value out there IMO
Interesting. I just bought 2 new motorcycle helmets last Saturday. I tried on a few different models and brands (I have a Shoei head). I have never had a SA-rated helmet as comfortable as my last two motorcycle helmets. Generally motorcycle helmets only come S/M/L while the better SA-rated helmets come in hat sizes. You would think you could find a better fit with the SA.
On a semi-related note and bringing thread back on topic somewhat. Please buy your helmet from the company/dealer where you tried them on. That dealer pays a lot to have a variety of models and sizes available. To spend his/her time and "money" to find the best fit only to get on the internet and order one isn't cool in my book.
HJC helmets aren't all that cheap any more. They figured out you only have to beat Bell/simpson/shoei/Arai - you don't have to beat them by 50%......
I'm a big fan of my HJC. It was a competitive price with helmets made by the other big players (except Arai who don't have a low cost option), and the padding construction allowed Wine Country to get the fit just right. It's been a while but I don't think I could get a Bell to fit me. That said I was in the budget class. Next time around may be different.
My only complaint is the visor locks very well, and can be difficult to get back up. Not an issue on track, it's a bit annoying when autocrossing.
I'm strongly in agreement with Daryl on this one. Find a brick and mortar store and buy driver's gear through them. Even on a budget I've been happy to pay a bit more to know what I'm buying fits and is comfortable.
Patrick Cleary
Motorcycle helmets are made to withstand entirely different types of impacts than race helmets. I was wearing a mid priced, fiberglass Korean KBC when Bambi rudely interrupted my early evening ride a few years back. Landed on my head on the pavement at about 50mph. Never lost consciousness, got up, turned the bike off, then walked 3/4 mile to the nearest house. The only part of the helmet that is not scratched, gouged, cracked, or otherwise mutilated was the back. Lots of sliding and banging went on there after the initial hit. I was entirely pleased with its performance and replaced it with another KBC. (KBC manufactures in China, not Korea.)
I would suggest that race helmets are built to withstand, distribute, and cushion significant single impacts.
The thing with helmets, racing, motorcycle, or other, is you really don't want to go out of your way to field test them.
Lola: When four springs just aren't enough.
[I would suggest that race helmets are built to withstand, distribute, and cushion significant single impacts.
The thing with helmets, racing, motorcycle, or other, is you really don't want to go out of your way to field test them.[/QUOTE]
I had a older lady (and I use that term loosely) left turn in front of me at about 45 mph, I was on my Buell. She never saw me till I smashed her windshield with my body. I flew over her car and landed a ways behind her. I will NEVER forget the crack of my helmet hitting the pavement as I landed flat on my back. Sounded like a gunshot. I got up and walked away holding my badly broken arm. Good helmet-bad lady ! The ins company took it and gave me money to buy a new one. It was an HJC, I bought another.
God is my pilot, I'm just the loose nut behind the wheel !
The Bell GP2 seems to be quite popular, and quite recommended. It doesn't seem to be part of the SA2105 line up.
Anybody with first hand experience with the GP3, how does it compare with the GP2?
Unfortunately I will have to order a model in, and don't have the luxury to get the helmets in hand to take a decision.
Thanks,
JS
Last edited by Jean-Sebastien Stoezel; 10.23.15 at 7:48 PM.
----------------------------
Jean-Sebastien Stoezel
Western Canada Motorsport Association (WCMA)
FV #0
Gp.2 gp.3
When I contacted Bell about SA2015 helmets I was told "the GP.2 will become the GP.3 with updates" but they didn't specify any particular feature differences. So one would assume it's been updated to meet the regs but otherwise similar.
They also told me they aren't selling the graphics (red or blue) versions.
Does anyone have a helmet with the "ear cups"? Are the ear cups a replacement for ear plugs or should one wear ear plugs with the ear cups?
Loud race cars and shooting have me worried I'll be as deaf as a post (yes, my wife says I already have selective deafness) when I'm older so maybe overkill isn't so bad.
Talked to Bell today and none of their helmets are made in The USA, nor in China. Of all places Bahrain!
Simpson has a number of helmets still made here but many from China as well. If there's an America flag next to a Simpson helmet on line or in the catalog, it's USA made.
HJC is South Korean and ironically their SA2010 carbon fiber helmet is heavier than their composite helmet.
Stilo, Sparco and OMP are Italian and appear to be made in Italy.
Arai is Japanese and are made in Japan.
Bored on a Thursday evening.
Feff
Last edited by Feffman; 11.15.15 at 8:11 AM.
This is an absolute misconception. I'm active in the triathlon/road bike community, and the cheap Chinese knockoff bike frame/wheels/components debate rages weekly. The general honest concensus is that you can get 85+pct. of the quality, 90pct. of the performance and 99.99pct. of the safety for 1/4 of the price. Not that there aren't issues (good luck with a warranty(?) claim) but by and large there ain't nuthin' wrong with any of it.
There have been a couple high-profile catastrophic failures with brand name bike brands, as if most of them aren't made in Asia too. I've got bad news for you if you think your Pinarello CF frame is made by an 85yo craftsman in a Milan catacomb.
Last edited by dalz; 11.13.15 at 10:54 AM.
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
It comes down to quality control. I work for a well known cycling manufacturer in the road and triathlon industry. For years our frames were produced in China. And for years we were not seen as one of the most reliable frame makers, but certainly the fastest. Over the last 36 months we have moved all production to Taiwan and our warranty instances have been reduced by a staggering percentage. It's not that the China product was all defective, some of it was very good, it was a consistent QC issue.
I understand. Typically the Chi-Com offbrand stuff doesn't flirt with structural limits. It's not quite as light, doesn't employ the latest aero tech, slightly less polished workmanship, but it just works, at a great price. The bike I bought on CL last year had Chinese no-name wheels, and so far they've been very satisfactory.
As Daryl intimated, the "how much is your head worth" rhetoric is silly. That means we should all be taking out home equity loans to buy FIA 8860s right? Find a lid that meets the cert you need, fits right, and hopefully it's within your want/need budget.
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
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