Poll: Dyno sealing non FIT FF engines

[Bill Manofsky]

The San Francisco region of the SCCA is successfully running Sealed Spec Miata for the 1.6L cars using the dyno at Thunderhill to dyno seal all engines in that class below 113hp. They chose 113 because that is what an engine built to OEM specs should get. No more $20,000 "spec" engines.

I, and most likely many others, would come back into FF if the SCCA set up a similar class that would include running a spec tire also to save cost.

It would be purely for the benefit of the drivers and not the engine builders and tire companies.

What I suggest is that there are still many of the Kent engines out there. They are not just going to up and all disappear. So instead of everyone jumping off the $10,000 cliff to convert to FIT, how about lets dyno seal all the kents like it should have been done back in the 60's when FF was supposed to be the low cost entry class for formula cars.

I suggest a dyno limit of 95hp since anyone should be able to get that much building a motor at home. Call it Sealed Formula Ford (SFF).

Thoughts anyone?

[Fred Michael]

No two dynos read the same and it would be impractical to put them all on one dyno.
Just one of may issues I can see with the proposal.

[BURKY]

FF is NOT a spec class.

[Bill Manofsky]

yes, I guess you are not old enough to remember how and why FF got started. There is a reason why there is the word "Ford" in the title. It originally was run on street tires in the 60's and was supposed to be for stock "spec" Cortina engines to make it an entry level driver's class. The engines were supposed to be stock, but the engine builders got ahold of the class and turned it into a money maker where you spend $10,000 to get 5 more Hp over a stock engine.

I personally would like to see a pure entry level drivers class on spec tires and sealed engines to take the engine builders and the tire companies out of the equation. It should be about driving talent and not about how much money you have to spend.

If somone wants to them graduate from this class into Formula Fit ore higher, that is fine, but the calss is actually a barrier to entry level drivers except for those born with trust funds.

[Bill Manofsky]

No two dynos read the same and it would be impractical to put them all on one dyno.
Just one of may issues I can see with the proposal.

We will establish the error value between the northern and southern California dynos buy using the same car on both. This way all the competitors will know this value in advance.

[BURKY]

How do you suggest someone take 10 different "FORD" motors, with 10 different HP#, And make them equal?

Let's say 25 HP difference between them.

[provamo]

that horse left the barn a long time ago

[problemchild]

Interesting concept. I see no way to handle the logistics at any feasible expense.
For example: Being able to remove the carburetor top for regular maintenance and cleaning is an absolute requirement for properly maintaining a healthy FF engine. That would also allow me to detune the carb for testing and retune for racing.

[Bill Manofsky]

If you have a good engine shop build to OEM specs, they should all be fairly similar. I can have a short block done for $550 and a head done for around $200. That is a far cry form $12,000. They will never all be exactly equal. In fact Ivey and the other engine builders never generate equal Hp on their engines. The higher Hp engines that come off their engine dyno are saved for the runoffs.

A upper threshold will be set and everyone would be below that.

I saw the dyno results of the 30 cars in Sealed Spec Miata in the SF Region in California. The upper limit is 113hp. Butt here was only one at 112Hp, most were around 110 and below.

But the point is, there are thirty drivers running this class now...that is a big field. They run the SSM's with the SM and SMT class.....and they run mid pack which means there are stock 1.6L cars being driven better than the $20,000 1.8L SM cars...so it is about driving, not money. When was the last time there were 30 FF's in the same race?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I understand the idea behind this. FC has the same situation.

One of the attraction of non-sealed classes (aren't SRF, FM and FE the only sealed engines nationally?) is the ability to do your own engine work.

So, someone shows up with a completely stock engine, totally legal, but it makes 100hp.
How do they fix it without being detrimental to all around performance?

Also, if I read correctly you are suggested a class within a class, NOT replacing FF.
You're not going to get the front running 5+ to detune their Hondas.

So you're looking for people willing to lose on purpose?
They can already do that....

I think that's why the Kent guys have gone to Vara, but hasn't Vara let the Fit guys in too?

Don't mean to rain on your parade (we could use that!)
I applaud the effort...

[BURKY]

But the point is, there are thirty drivers running this class now...that is a big field. They run the SSM's with the SM and SMT class.....and they run mid pack which means there are stock 1.6L cars being driven better than the $20,000 1.8L SM cars...so it is about driving, not money. When was the last time there were 30 FF's in the same race?

How many people did they catch cheating this year at the Runoffs in SM?

Just sayin...

[problemchild]

They will never all be exactly equal. In fact Ivey and the other engine builders never generate equal Hp on their engines. The higher Hp engines that come off their engine dyno are saved for the runoffs.

A upper threshold will be set and everyone would be below that.

I saw the dyno results of the 30 cars in Sealed Spec Miata in the SF Region in California. The upper limit is 113hp. Butt here was only one at 112Hp, most were around 110 and below.

But the point is, there are thirty drivers running this class now...that is a big field. They run the SSM's with the SM and SMT class.....and they run mid pack which means there are stock 1.6L cars being driven better than the $20,000 1.8L SM cars...so it is about driving, not money. When was the last time there were 30 FF's in the same race?

No one has debated that it is not a good idea. World peace is a good idea too. What is needed is a fully executable plan that will accomplish your goal, which is totally enforceable, and will not disenfranchise those who have supported and invested in the class. Anything less than that is not even worth debating. You need to sell people your plan, not your concept.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

How many people did they catch cheating this year at the Runoffs in SM?

Just sayin...

The latest SCCA issue says everything's all good now.....

[Bill Manofsky]

Interesting concept. I see no way to handle the logistics at any feasible expense.
For example: Being able to remove the carburetor top for regular maintenance and cleaning is an absolute requirement for properly maintaining a healthy FF engine. That would also allow me to detune the carb for testing and retune for racing.

The dyno work will be performed on chassis dynos.

Here is the price structure in California right now:

Initial dyno and seal $325. This takes about an hour and a half per car.
Resealing $180. This is for anyone needing to do wok on their engine.
Spot checks of the top finishers at the track $60

I see this working well....otherwise you guys can have a class where you are spending $12 to $15 grand per engine to get 10hp above stock. You can still run a great race at 95hp.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

[QUOTE=William Manofsky;474573] I saw the dyno results of the 30 cars in Sealed Spec Miata in the SF Region in California. The upper limit is 113hp. Butt here was only one at 112Hp, most were around 110 and below.
QUOTE]

So, this is a chassis dyno they are using?

So, put some really thick fluid in the diff and tranny and you'll lose a few HP.
Even over filling might do it...

[Bill Manofsky]

The latest SCCA issue says everything's all good now.....

They don't dyno seal the engines in SM in advance......

[Bill Manofsky]

I understand the idea behind this. FC has the same situation.

One of the attraction of non-sealed classes (aren't SRF, FM and FE the only sealed engines nationally?) is the ability to do your own engine work.

So, someone shows up with a completely stock engine, totally legal, but it makes 100hp.
How do they fix it without being detrimental to all around performance?

Also, if I read correctly you are suggested a class within a class, NOT replacing FF.
You're not going to get the front running 5+ to detune their Hondas.

So you're looking for people willing to lose on purpose?
They can already do that....

I think that's why the Kent guys have gone to Vara, but hasn't Vara let the Fit guys in too?

Don't mean to rain on your parade (we could use that!)
I applaud the effort...

I don't want the few rich guys who can afford $12000 engines. I want average joes who want to get started in Formula car racing in a class that is reasonable to enter without having to go the aircooled route. Yes, it will be a sub class just like club ford started out. In fact I suggest sealing all the engines in CF.

If an engine comes out over the threshold, put in a restrictor plate or detune the car on the dyno.

Yes, everyone runs away from the SCCA. They should look for ways to pull everyone back...that is why I am suggesting this class.

Yes eventually VARA will take all the FIT guys too. Who will be left to run SCCA?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

They don't dyno seal the engines in SM in advance......

True. Never meant to imply that. Was referring to article that glazed over the runoff debacle and said they all now agree what plunge cut means and that removing a lip IS machining without saying any of that....

Mazda stepped up I think because they saw the class imploding.
SM should now work across SCCA and NASA.

So I wonder why SFR decided their own route?
Did they get NASA on board? A lot of guys run both....

[Bill Manofsky]

No one has debated that it is not a good idea. World peace is a good idea too. What is needed is a fully executable plan that will accomplish your goal, which is totally enforceable, and will not disenfranchise those who have supported and invested in the class. Anything less than that is not even worth debating. You need to sell people your plan, not your concept.

...just throwing out the idea to see what people think before I runit up the flagpole to SCCA Hq. We may just run it as a region thing here in California...


Why am I wanting to do this. No matter how much I love my 1.6L Miata(Japanese Cosworth) I really would like to get back home to formula cars. In the mid 1980's I ran SE Div regionals in my Royal RP3A FF. I was right out of Georgia Tech and could only afford to build my own engines. I had my pickup truck and my open trailer. It was the same time Michael Andretti and Al Unser Jr. started in FF.

One double race weekend at Charlotte, I rolled in to see Andretti with his 18wheeler, two cars and three mechanics and a big Go-Jo ad on the side of his truck.....that is when i got out of racing. Could not compete against that.

Today Andretti would start in the highes level FF with a FIT engine. I juts think there should be an entry level Formula class for the rest of us.

[Bill Manofsky]

[QUOTE=BeerBudgetRacing;474583]

I saw the dyno results of the 30 cars in Sealed Spec Miata in the SF Region in California. The upper limit is 113hp. Butt here was only one at 112Hp, most were around 110 and below.
QUOTE]

So, this is a chassis dyno they are using?

So, put some really thick fluid in the diff and tranny and you'll lose a few HP.
Even over filling might do it...

To prevent cheating. the top finishers will be impounded and spot dyno'd. And if anyone is still legal and comes in noticeably higher than what they originally were sealed at, we won't care, because they will still be legal. You can do all the monkeying around you like with your oil and diff fluid etc. even spend hours on a chassis dyno tweaking your car. But that is just more work for you. As long as you are below the threshold, that is great. But the point is that it is you the driver doing all the work to make the best of your car.

[fitfan]

what you are suggesting has a number of issues.

first off the "problem" doesn't lie in the fords - generally speaking, if you are a front runner you are in a fit. and the fit is "equalized" (torque curve not with standing....) to the ford.

so three really is nothing with the ford to "fix" at this point, other than to try and keep the fit equalized (as they get developed and built "tweaked") to the ford.

the ford engine has a spec, and you can't make over ~115hp and be on that spec. so no need to "seal" them, just need to enforce whats already there, and thats easier to do on the ford, than on the fit... and i suspect, therein lies the problem the ford guys are faced with, along with various other performance and running benefits of the fit.

lastly, the concept of a home built engine is the exact opposite of a sealed engine... a well built (ivey for example) ford will give you 114hp, will last 40+ hours. and will cost ~4k'ish to rebuild. thats 1-2k a year in engine cost. a factor so small compared to what you'll spend in tires.... so whats the point? we have a spec, thats reliable. its an archaic engine, and its not a BDA time bomb build on the block.

and last lastly - how are you going to de-tune a ford to 95 hp and then what? open a different class for the de-tuned fords that can't run with a normal ford and certainly can't fun with a fit? whats the point? if you want to grow numbers, you want to increase 'racing' not decrease it by bumping people out of competitiveness. if you want something "cheaper" than FF - than there are other classes.

as another posted commented - the train already left the station.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Initial dyno and seal $325. This takes about an hour and a half per car.
Resealing $180. This is for anyone needing to do wok on their engine.
Spot checks of the top finishers at the track $60

Not sure what resealing is (another complete dyno or a looks good nod?) but that adds significant cost to gasket replacement

So each region is going to drag around a dyno. Who's going to pay for that?
Worst case for the dyno operator is only getting to spot check the winners.
Top 3 ($180), 10? ($800)

I can see why the SM guys are now looking for other dyno users.....

And if anyone is still legal and comes in noticeably higher than what they originally were sealed at, we won't care, because they will still be legal.

So, where is the sealing going to start and end? Carbureted cars need mix tuning unlike FI cars such as the Miata.

[Bill Manofsky]

what you are suggesting has a number of issues.

first off the "problem" doesn't lie in the fords - generally speaking, if you are a front runner you are in a fit. and the fit is "equalized" (torque curve not with standing....) to the ford.

so three really is nothing with the ford to "fix" at this point, other than to try and keep the fit equalized (as they get developed and built "tweaked") to the ford.

the ford engine has a spec, and you can't make over ~115hp and be on that spec. so no need to "seal" them, just need to enforce whats already there, and thats easier to do on the ford, than on the fit... and i suspect, therein lies the problem the ford guys are faced with, along with various other performance and running benefits of the fit.

lastly, the concept of a home built engine is the exact opposite of a sealed engine... a well built (ivey for example) ford will give you 114hp, will last 40+ hours. and will cost ~4k'ish to rebuild. thats 1-2k a year in engine cost. a factor so small compared to what you'll spend in tires.... so whats the point? we have a spec, thats reliable. its an archaic engine, and its not a BDA time bomb build on the block.

and last lastly - how are you going to de-tune a ford to 95 hp and then what? open a different class for the de-tuned fords that can't run with a normal ford and certainly can't fun with a fit? whats the point?

as another posted commented - the train already left the station.

You miss my point. The dyno sealing threshold will be established at a stock cortina engine wil put out with an rebuild to OEM spec. But a good balance job is recommended to keep from grenading. If that number is 95hp, or even 100hp, then so be it.

But if you can pay the extra $12,000 for Ivey to then get you another 15hp, that is fine too. You should race in FF or FFIT. And if we have to run the detuned FF class with the FV's then so be it too.

But my guess is that there will be many more entries for Sealed FF than there are for FF and FFIt. I will be one of them. I refuse to run FFit. For that kind of money, I will just move up to FC.

[BURKY]

Ok... let's just say the motors are "SPEC"!

Will a DB6 be competing against a 83/84 VD? Is that fair?

[jim morgan]

would be for me

[BURKY]

would be for me

You don't count!!!

[SEComposites]

It never ceases to amaze me how this country has fiddled with FFord. At the moment the pro-series runs on one tire, SCCA majors on another tire, Club Ford on another tire, vintage Ford on yet another tire. All this is one class of racing! Leave the Ford engine regs alone and let's have a common long life tire. That's what will rejuvenate this class.

[Bill Manofsky]

Ok... let's just say the motors are "SPEC"!

Will a DB6 be competing against a 83/84 VD? Is that fair?

Certainly a DB6 with an Ivey engine will outrun a 84 Van Deiman with a homebuilt engine....been there done that. But the point is that the DB6 ios faster because the guy has more money, not necessarily because he is a better driver....


Then maybe this should be reserved only for Club Ford. Just allow only pre 1990 chassis.

How about we find ways to make this work instead of beating it up and picking it apart. How about some positive vibes here Moriarity(quote: Donald Sutherland in 1970's movie Kelly's Heroes). I am open to all suggestions.

[Bill Manofsky]

It never ceases to amaze me how this country has fiddled with FFord. At the moment the pro-series runs on one tire, SCCA majors on another tire, Club Ford on another tire, vintage Ford on yet another tire. All this is one class of racing! Leave the Ford engine regs alone and let's have a common long life tire. That's what will rejuvenate this class.

I 100% agree, common tire and ALSO spec engines. But when the tire and engine companies get a hold of a class, the powers to bee seem to forget that this is a "club" for DRIVERS resulting in people being driven away.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

It never ceases to amaze me how this country has fiddled with FFord. At the moment the pro-series runs on one tire, SCCA majors on another tire, Club Ford on another tire, vintage Ford on yet another tire. All this is one class of racing! Leave the Ford engine regs alone and let's have a common long life tire. That's what will rejuvenate this class.

That's is what groups like Pacific are doing in both FF and FC.....

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67227

and for the most part their members are winning....

[provamo]

i am kinda liking the idea of a Miata powered Royale at this point

[Bill Manofsky]

That's is what groups like Pacific are doing in both FF and FC.....

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67227

and for the most part their members are winning....

The R888 tire set should not cost $650. You should be able to get them for less through Tire Rack. I saw a special where they were $125ea.

There is a class called Super Miata run by Speedventures in Southern California. They run Maxim RR's which are not treaded like the R888's. They are slicks with two lines down the middle like Toyo RR's Speedventures cut a deal with Maxxim to sell the RR's for $124 per tire to drivers registered for a race.

You should push the SCCA to cut the same kind of deal with Toyo.

I have been running DOT tires on Maitas for the past year. I have Falkans on mine right now. I just did a test day at Willow springs and they held just fine at 110mph coming out of T8. And they still have plenty of tread on them.

[Bill Manofsky]

i am kinda liking the idea of a Miata powered Royale at this point

You took the words right out of my mouth. I have 20 valve 4AGE Toyota engine sitting on an engine stand inmy garage that I would just love to put in an older FC or FA.

I am not enamored about running Cortina/Kent engines forever. It would be better to find a modern alternate. The big problem, and why the FIT is so expensive, is the dry dump package.

I called Honda and asked them how much it would cost to take a motor out of the junkyard and upgrade it to fit into a FF Chassis. They told me the kit to upgrade a stock engine is designed to "fit" it into a Swift chassis and costs $9000. This included the dry sump pan, sump pump etc.

The fact that it is all coming from the Honda factory means there is most likely a 100% $$$markup$$$ on everything.

Again, there is nothing wrong with that at all. I am certain there are many people out there who can afford that, but I am just not gong there. I was born with a lead spoon in my mouth....but should that exclude me from running Formula cars again???

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The R888 tire set should not cost $650. You should be able to get them for less through Tire Rack. I saw a special where they were $125ea.

There is a class called Super Miata run by Speedventures in Southern California. They run Maxim RR's which are not treaded like the R888's. They are slicks with two lines down the middle like Toyo RR's Speedventures cut a deal with Maxxim to sell the RR's for $124 per tire to drivers registered for a race.

You should push the SCCA to cut the same kind of deal with Toyo.

I have been running DOT tires on Maitas for the past year. I have Falkans on mine right now. I just did a test day at Willow springs and they held just fine at 110mph coming out of T8. And they still have plenty of tread on them.

The R888's on my Vette cost $350ea

I actually prefer NT01s. Went back and forth with them and the NT01s are better.
R888s will heat cycle out. The fast vette guys @ willow run the NT01s. Consistent to the cord... but that's a 3100lb car....

If SpeedVentures can do it, CalClub should be able to...
My previous point is one organization IS doing a spec tire. Just get everyone to join in.

Make a group within a group (not official) - it's the official part that will be the problem.
Pacific did their own thing to keep tires down to 1 set per weekend. Top runners containing cost too....

[SEComposites]

I am not enamored about running Cortina/Kent engines forever. It would be better to find a modern alternate.

This is exactly what is not needed. There is nothing wrong with the Kent engine. There are so many Kent cars out there ready to run. Another engine will not get them out. Plenty of other countries use the Kent and treaded tires with big grids. Imagine we have a spec Kent motor out there and yet again the class has been diluted.

We're trying to put together a Ford only race this year at the ARRC at Road Atlanta. Kent engine - treaded tires.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

[Bill Manofsky]

This is exactly what is not needed. There is nothing wrong with the Kent engine. There are so many Kent cars out there ready to run. Another engine will not get them out. Plenty of other countries use the Kent and treaded tires with big grids. Imagine we have a spec Kent motor out there and yet again the class has been diluted.

We're trying to put together a Ford only race this year at the ARRC at Road Atlanta. Kent engine - treaded tires.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68960

That is beautiful you are doing that. I have just been away too long to know the health of the Kent engine. Now if you could only have them all dyno sealed on teh same dyno and start the sealed class up in the Atlanta region(my former region), that would be all the better.

I was told by a friend that someone is manufacturing new blocks and there are plenty of aluminum heads out there.

So if there are still enough to last another 20 years, that is great because the dry sump and engine adapter will not have to be changed.

[teamwisconsin]

The big problem, and why the FIT is so expensive, is the dry dump package.
I was born with a lead spoon in my mouth....but should that exclude me from running Formula cars again???

Sorry to burst your bubble... The package is expensive because Honda controls the market. They can ask whatever they want for it and whatcha gonna do about it?

If you have been away for so long and don't know about the health of the Kent motor (your words), listen to some of the folks who know. There is NOTHING wrong with a good Kent these days. Start with the good Pistons, rods, crank, etc, keep up on basic maintenance, and you have a 40-50 hr life. Ask Jay on this one.

Sealing motors really only works when you have an ECU. Sealing carbureted pushrod motors and expecting them to just last and last is a recipe for trouble.

One double race weekend at Charlotte, I rolled in to see Andretti with his 18wheeler, two cars and three mechanics and a big Go-Jo ad on the side of his truck.....that is when i got out of racing. Could not compete against that.

Did you TRY to compete or did you just throw up your hands and use that as an excuse to leave? People will always spend a fortune in any racing class. We all have our own limits financially, time wise, or family/work commitments that hold us back. There is NOTHING stopping anyone from buying a decent Kent powered car for 12-20k and going out and giving it their best. Money is important, yes. But I will always take a driver who has done his homework, built the best car he can, and has a burning desire to win over some rich kid who's dad just writes the check. If you think that a big truck and crew is the only thing that separates the dude finishing 6th in CF at a regional at Willow Springs and guys like Jeremy and Tim Kautz, you are living in a dream world.

[BURKY]

There is NOTHING stopping anyone from buying a decent Kent powered car for 12-20k and going out and giving it their best. Money is important, yes. But I will always take a driver who has done his homework, built the best car he can, and has a burning desire to win over some rich kid who's dad just writes the check. If you think that a big truck and crew is the only thing that separates the dude finishing 6th in CF at a regional at Willow Springs and guys like Jeremy and Tim Kautz, you are living in a dream world.

[fitfan]

It never ceases to amaze me how this country has fiddled with FFord. At the moment the pro-series runs on one tire, SCCA majors on another tire, Club Ford on another tire, vintage Ford on yet another tire. All this is one class of racing! Leave the Ford engine regs alone and let's have a common long life tire. That's what will rejuvenate this class.

exactly!

[fitfan]

But if you can pay the extra $12,000 for Ivey to then get you another 15hp, that is fine too.

ive had ivey build me a new engine when my block cracked. that was 1/3 of 12 grand to do, including the brand new from ford block.

I'm having ivey rebuild and engine right now that had a cam failure and will need a complete rebuild along with new cam and timing parts, and that will also be around 1/3 of 12k

i have a friend that is getting an ivey built up from parts because of a "home built" engine that threw a rod.... and will get a new scca crank and some other parts along with an old block prep and it will be under 1/2 of 12k


where are you getting this 12k number from?

sure the home built motor with 95 hp and "cheap" parts sound great until you miss a shift, throw a rod out the block and then your back to square one and not saving any money..... which is why folks like ivey have invested their careers on building reliable, cost effective ford engines for FF, it IS a cost savings from the 'historic' engines of old

besides.... the idea of detuning an engine to, say 95 hp, won't stop someone from building a trick engine, that does in fact dyno at 95hp at 6,500 rpm... but, they will spend 12grand so it will rev to 9k and put out 115hp. it will dyno, and seal. but it won't stop someone from entering a spending war and dominating with power, and you can't dyno the cheap engine to 9k rpm because it will explode.... - its just a flawed idea (as mentioned without ECU control)