Radical maint question.
Hey guys. I've been watching Radical from a distance for a long time, and I have a question. Those of you who are running them, do you believe that you have higher maintenance costs that your competitors running something different?
Thanks for any replies!
Great Question
Thanks for posting this. I am following this thread as I think I am in the same position. I have an FF, but considering getting a Radical also.
I don't know how much this will help, but . . . I have an old Radical (ClubSport turned ProSport, Serial No. 40) that I run in small club races and on track days. Maybe 10 days a year. Maintenance costs are minimal. But if parts are needed from Radical, that's a different story.
A local guy, respected racer, and shop owner, has stated to me and others that buying a Radical "puts you on the maintenance treadmill with them". He states that things always break, and you have to defer to them to fix it, and that their costs are always WAY out of line.
So, that's the reason I'm asking. I'm trying to either confirm, or refute what he says.
Well, it is a racecar, so it's not built with a lot of redundancy or excess strength, but I've not had any excessive breakage or wear issues (3 years; 25 to 30 days on the track). I had some problems with my shifter mechanism, but I think that was a not-well-made previous owner item (I'm the third or fourth owner). I've heard that the early cars had weak half-shafts, but they were replaced on my car with "heavy duty" units before I got it. I keep the CV joints and Quaife differential well lubed (my car is chain drive, unlike later Radicals) and have had no driveline trouble. I've had no issues with the steering or suspension or Wilwood brakes; I use PF1 pads and they wear like iron. I recently rebuilt my Penske shocks (many $$$ with no noticeable effect). I inspect the hubs and frame regularly and nut and bolt regularly. The only issue I've had is two of the frame rails around the engine (Rilltech '08 GSXR, solid mounted) have cracked and I've had to reinforce and reweld them. And the bodywork is FAR from lovely; cracks, chips, breaks, etc. But compared to what I regularly read on ApexSpeed and the DSR Forum, I'd rate my Radical as reliable and easy to maintain. And I can single-hand it at the track; no pit crew. All that said, it's not a Toyota sedan.
I have owned my 2010 Radical SR3 for about a year and a half and have done about 12 track days with it. So far it has been very solid and reliable. Other than normal maintenance like tires and fluids, I have only had it in the shop once, which ended up being a bad spark plug and I got a new set of wires. When you need parts though they aren't exactly cheap, but not too bad. With that said I am almost due for an engine overhaul, which needs to be done every 40 hours. I would highly recommend Radicals. They are so much fun to drive.... And worth every penny.
Charley
What Lube do you use in the quaife?Originally Posted by yellowesty
I've been using Red Line CV-2 grease in both the differential and in the CV joints. My differential, like others on early Radicals, is a bit strange in that it has a cover which is not well sealed and is free to rotate around the internals and to slide, axially, away from the internals. I keep it somewhat snug with plastic tie-wraps on the right-hand side (the opposite side from the drive sprocket). Crude as all this seems, I believe the differential has been in service over the life of this well-used racecar -- approximately 16 years.
For the Quaife in the SR3 Radical recommends using Neo 75w90 RHD (racing heavy duty). The gear oil needs to be changed about every 10 hours.
Charley
Are any of you Radical guys record keepers?
Do you have an records of your per event, and/or yearly maint costs?
It occurred to me that "reasonable maintenance" means different things to different people. I'm reminded of the people that are die hard Honda fans. That profess that NOTHING ever goes wrong with their cars. "Well, you know, except for that time that it ate the CV joints, and all those other things that every Honda person knows. "
So, any hard data on costs guys?
"So, any hard data on costs guys?"
No. I learned, several racecars ago, to NEVER keep track of expenses.
That said, I can, with good confidence, tell you what I have done to the car since buying it, in good condition, a bit over three years and 25 to 30 track days ago.
PARTS REPLACEMENT
New front brake pads and rotors (1 set each)
New CV joint boots with tie bands (2 boots)
New drive chains (2)
New sprockets front and back (1 set; I didn't monitor the chain adequately)
Hoosier slicks (4 sets -- note: it's easy to flatspot rear slicks on a winged car)
Odyssey battery
Used (eBay) starter (I put the clutch in a bit late after a spin in the wet)
New Heim joints on all upper A-arms (4)
Rebuilt Penske 2-way shocks (done by a professional shop; expensive; questionable value)
CV/differential grease (annual)
Engine oil/filters (twice a year whether it needs it or not)
New brake fluid (annual)
REPAIRS
Reinforced and welded two cracked frame rails around the engine
Rebuilt the rod from the shift lever to the transmission
Rebuilt the engine mounts
Repaired the front splitter (some agricultural work ate a bite out of my carbon fiber splitter)
UPGRADES/ENHANCEMENTS
Gear position indicator (indispensable for old guys -- like me)
Flatshifter system (love it)
Venting of front wheel wells through the side pods (BIG help in controlling understeer)
Bead seat (much more comfortable than Radical's plastic lawn chair)
Blinking lights all over the roll bar (so door slammers see me when running mixed events)
Cool Shirt cooler (indispensable for old guys)
Enlarged (3-pass) oil cooler
Electric fan on radiator (for long waits on the grid)
Adapted a Kirkey head restraint to the Radical headrest (for lateral protection)
Modified front Nik-bar (Radical's unique ARB) to allow adjustment
Moved the coolant swirl tank so that the fill cap is higher than the coolant in the cylinder head
Added a roller mechanism so that I can single-handedly remove the rear bodywork
Extended the chain guard to minimize chain lube splatter
Swapped the fuel filler from a "quick fill" to a conventional fill
And I've done a number of engine/fuel system enhancements, including replacement of a tired '06 GSXR with a fresh '08, that had nothing to do with the car being a Radical.
I've done all the work myself, with the exception of rebuilding the shocks, so the listing of activities may be more useful than a listing of expenses. This is, I believe, a complete listing.
I came across Jake Latham's web page when searching for "Brake Calculators." He ran a Radical a while back and has a bunch of details over there. He is here as JakeL and might be a useful contact/search here too.
Cheers - Jim
Jake was the most recent previous owner of my car. He's very knowledgeable and very helpful. A great guy! And he did an excellent job of sorting the car I bought from him.
I have only been using my SR3 for track days so I am not as hard on it as people that race w2w. I keep all of my records in a maintenance log book. I have done the following Maintenance 1) change engine oil / filter every 6 to 10 hours (I also send my oil out for analysis). Purchased one set of tires (car came with a good set and I am ready for another set), 2) replaced spark plugs, 3) Replaced spark plug wires. 3) changed Quaife oil every 10 to 12 hours. 4) miscellaneous body work (the body work is very thin and needs minor work on a regular basis.... Luckily I have a lot if Fiberglas experience from repairing surf boards). 5) change rubber body bushings for the rear spoiler. 6) after every track day I take off the body panels to clean and inspect everything.
I have also spent money on modifications like: 1) I replaced most of the body latches with locking latches, 2) I changed the gear ratio, 3) added a cockpit wind deflector, 4) added a smartycam and microphone.
With that said I am about to bring my car in to have the 40 hour engine and gearbox overhaul done.... Which won't be cheap
Charley
As a data point, just did a refresh on the Wolf with the K20 at 135 hours. $3600. Engine builder said cylinders still showed factory machining pattern. We put better than Mugen parts in it and balanced it so we are going for 200 hours next time.
Sadev with paddle shift needs very little maintenance. Diff rebuild at 200 hours. A fork and a dog ring once in a while.
Car has about 30% race time and 70% open practice and track day use.
I was under the impression that those 2 liter cars from Europe were expensive to buy, expensive to run, and expensive to maintain. Is that not the case?
I understand that the K20 engine is built like a tank. But it's the REST of the car that I'm concerned about.
Also, you mentioned that the engine rebuild was $3600. How much are the routine maintenance costs on the Sadev? Can you list the costs for the things you mentioned? Replacing a fork, or a dog ring?
You may want to contact Bulldog racing in Cailf, they maintain two Norma CN cars used in SCCA P1. Good shop.
http://www.bulldogmotorsport23.com/index.html
Thanks Terry! E-mail sent!
Frank,
"I was under the impression that those 2 liter cars from Europe were expensive to buy, expensive to run, and expensive to maintain. Is that not the case?"
There are cheaper cars to buy but they are pretty inexpensive to maintain. There are a few Radicals here. The Wolf is definitely less expensive to maintain and better uptime. The Wolf is rarely done for the weekend early.
The 2 liter CN cars are built for the endurance races so everything is beefier than some cars built for sprints. The suspension/uprights are pretty stout.
We spent less than $200 in the gearbox in the last year.
The car typically runs an average 4 days a month (year round here) including having run two 4 hour enduros in the last year.
Call me if you want to talk more.
512-261-1462
I had my Wolf K20 engine refreshed recently. $3600 after 135 hours. Engine builder said I really didn't have to do it. Insides looked new, good compression, etc.
He upgraded the guts and says my refresh interval is now 200 hours.
Wow that's great! What kind of engine does it have? I am amazed that it can go that long. I just had my radical engine rebuilt and ti was nearly three times that much and it has to be done about every 40 hours. Now to be fair my car is an ex factory race car that had some very unusual work needed.... New engine cases, new Pistons, new upgraded engine mount, and I rebuilt the Quaife. Prior to the overhaul the car had been very reliable and cheap to operate.
Charley
I believe they run the Honda K20 engines in the Wolfs. (Well, the non-V8 ones at least).
Frank, Are you looking to race or go lapping? --- will make a (big) difference on maintenance costs (abuse and risk)
Also what are you coming from? (I came from FF before getting into Radicals)
Ill be happy to share my experience with you.
Jon
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