SCCA Majors Summit Point

[nhJohn]

Race #1

1. Rick Shields
2. Mitchell Ferguson
3. Dale Rader
4. Gary Kitell
5. David Scaler
6. Bill Hannum
7. James Hannum
8. Roger Sieblenaler
9. Ray Qualls
10. Andy Pastore
11. Jack Maloney
12. Dan Grace
13. John Petillo
14. John Maloney
15. Stevan Davis
16. Alex Scaler
17. David Thompson
18. Luke Testerman

Roger was in 2nd and dicing with Mitchell on the last lap. Not sure what happened.
Steven was in the top 3 and went off and retired soon after that.
Dan was in the top 10 and had an off road. Came back in the "middle pack" and was hard to move forward.
Andy stated out a little off pace but moved up slowly and was within lap times that were within 2 secs of the leaders.

John

[BLS]

John,

Thanks for the news. My internet has been out all day until just a few moments ago, so I missed the "live update" action of the race and Q3.

Barry

[nhJohn]

John,

Thanks for the news. My internet has been out all day until just a few moments ago, so I missed the "live update" action of the race and Q3.

Barry

You get an audio stream with announcers if you connect through the SCCA Live - connection. But the audio would come and go. It started working real well when the FV race ended .... ?????

[BLS]

John,

I've yet had a good experience with audio or video on the SCCA live site. You would think in this day and age the SCCA could get that part right. It's just not that hard anymore.

[cooleyjb]

I think they are still tied into the internet capabilities of the track. And many of them are not that good.

[nhJohn]

Race #2

1. Stevan Davis
2. Roger Siebenaler
3. Rick Shields
4. James Hannun
5. Gary Kitell
6. Dale Rader
7. Bill Hannun
8. John Petillo
9. Luke Testerman
10. Ray Qualls
11. Alex Scaler
12. Dan Grace
13. David Scaler
14. Jack Maloney
15. John Maloney
16. Andy Pastore

Up front the top 4/5 early on were very tight,
I think an F5 was in the mix on the last lap, maybe affecting the outcome ... not sure


John

[Steve Davis]

Race #2
...Up front the top 4/5 early on were very tight,
I think an F5 was in the mix on the last lap, maybe affecting the outcome ... not sure
John

FYI - No probs with F5 in closing laps. Roger locked up rear brakes into T5 and spun. Shields was in JUST the wrong spot and apparently went off track to avoid hitting Roger. I was in JUST the *RIGHT* spot and tucked inside Roger's nose and got by clean to the checker

[nhJohn]

FYI - No probs with F5 in closing laps. Roger locked up rear brakes into T5 and spun. Shields was in JUST the wrong spot and apparently went off track to avoid hitting Roger. I was in JUST the *RIGHT* spot and tucked inside Roger's nose and got by clean to the checker

Ya just don't know until the checker waves ...
congratulations !

It is tuff watching 'Race Monitor' with no audio, and as each lap is updated you see positions change. Easy to see that early in the race who was up front, how close, drafting etc ...

All of a sudden someone is missing from scoring, or moved back 8 positions ... 'what happened!!"

Now we know.
Glad to hear that the last lap had no F5 or FF traffic.
Any confusion on Sunday if the white flag - waving - was confused for the checkered flag? When the audio was working, even the announcers made comments: "I think this is the last lap.... I think that was the checkered flag..." "nope, we have another lap...."

Sounds like a fun weekend.
John

[Steve Davis]

If I said there was NO FF or F5 traffic, that was incorrect. What I meant was that they did not affect the results. I caught an ailing F5 at T1 on my last lap. He cost me a bit of time, but not much as he stayed out of the way and didn't 'challenge' my pass. a POINT would have been nice, but at least I got by relatively cleanly.

As for the waving white.. yes .. it is quite difficult to tell for sure if the flag is WHITE or CHECKERED. In fact, on Saturday Roger came in on the last lap because he had NEVER seen a waving white flag (his first race of the year - didn't read the supps ) before and assumed it was the checker. He lost at least 6 spots in the finish order because of that. He did NOT make that same mistake on Sunday. We have to rely on the knowledge that a waving white EXISTS and PAY ATTENTION to the flag station to keep them straight...

[John Nesbitt]

I was operating steward for this group. After the Sunday race, one driver in impound brought me a concern about his scoring. On investigation, we found that he had dropped a lap. The Chief Steward restored that lap, and I believe that the final results reflect that change.

Post-event, we (the Chief Steward, I, and T&S staff) spent a day working through the transponder hits and comparing with the manual scoring. We found six cars that had lost a lap due to a problem in the AMB system.

Now that T&S knows of the issue, they can prevent future occurrences.

T&S is working up a revised set of results, restoring the lost lap for the other five cars. They will publish this as soon as they are able to double-check the corrections.

On the Waving-White-for-last-lap question, I agree that this is a bad idea. The White flag already has a meaning. It is easy to confuse a Waving White for the Checker.

If you do not like the rule, write a letter to the CRB (www.crbscca.com) requesting that they remove it.

[nhJohn]

<snip>.

On the Waving-White-for-last-lap question, I agree that this is a bad idea. The White flag already has a meaning. It is easy to confuse a Waving White for the Checker.

If you do not like the rule, write a letter to the CRB (www.crbscca.com) requesting that they remove it.

Gives me cause to finish my "suggestions letter" regarding an error in the rules & suggestions on procedure for presenting and waiving of the checkered flag for the finish of a race. We had a similar situation at LRP where 1/2 of the field thought they were on the last lap - waiving to the volunteer corner workers - who were waving back, while here comes the other 1/2 of the field racing by ...
A very dangerous situation.
John

[problemchild]

I would hope that uninformed/uneducated drivers will soon be informed and the problem will take of itself. If SCCA does not keep the white flag last lap signal (I think they should) then please make sure that they adopt a uniform standard that is used at all events at all tracks. The old system, with various sized and colored LL or 1 boards, sometimes displayed, sometimes not ...... was totally bushleague.

[ajpastore]

I would hope that uninformed/uneducated drivers will soon be informed and the problem will take of itself. If SCCA does not keep the white flag last lap signal (I think they should) then please make sure that they adopt a uniform standard that is used at all events at all tracks. The old system, with various sized and colored LL or 1 boards, sometimes displayed, sometimes not ...... was totally bushleague.

Greg,
It’s fine that the SCCA might adopt a club wide standard whether it be a board or flag. I agree for sure. The issue was that it's a vigorously waving white flag. Not a standing flag as I was familiar with. It was difficult to tell if it was a checker or white flag. Normally one quick glance is all you need to determine which flag is displayed. I had to do a double take and still wasn't positive as I drove under the flag. Since I was 3 wide with Jack and Dan at that point it was even more challenging to wait for the flag to be in a position that showed its true colors.
We of course kept racing but did come upon a car that thought the flag was checkered. He was on his cool down lap! This caused Dan to spin.
So Roger wasn't the only one snookerd by the flag.
I plan to send a letter in soon to suggest something different.
Andy P.

[Matt Clark]

please make sure that they adopt a uniform standard that is used at all events at all tracks. The old system, with various sized and colored LL or 1 boards, sometimes displayed, sometimes not .....

Maybe to even expand on it, I wouldn't be opposed to the last 2 laps being displayed via a board, just in case we (being the FV leaders) get lapped by a FF on their last lap & never know it is a run to the checkered. At least give those without spotters a chance at knowing.


But to congrats to all down there. Good to see a big field again, hopefully the NE is making a strong comeback with numbers.

[nhJohn]

Maybe to even expand on it, I wouldn't be opposed to the last 2 laps being displayed via a board, just in case we (being the FV leaders) get lapped by a FF on their last lap & never know it is a run to the checkered. At least give those without spotters a chance at knowing.


But to congrats to all down there. Good to see a big field again, hopefully the NE is making a strong comeback with numbers.

.......The numbers are there .... I think it has something to do with the runoffs not being held in a different continent ....

[problemchild]

Greg,
It’s fine that the SCCA might adopt a club wide standard whether it be a board or flag. I agree for sure. The issue was that it's a vigorously waving white flag. Not a standing flag as I was familiar with. It was difficult to tell if it was a checker or white flag. Normally one quick glance is all you need to determine which flag is displayed. I had to do a double take and still wasn't positive as I drove under the flag. Since I was 3 wide with Jack and Dan at that point it was even more challenging to wait for the flag to be in a position that showed its true colors.
We of course kept racing but did come upon a car that thought the flag was white. He was on his cool dowm lap! This caused Dan to spin.
So Roger wasn't the only one snookerd by the flag.
I plan to send a letter in soon to suggest something different.
Andy P.

I expect it will all work out once everyone understands the concept and does a few events with it. A waved white flag with one lap to go is the industry standard in American auto racing, just as green means go, yellow means caution, and red means stop. With the crossover between various forms of car and kart racing, club, vintage, and pro, adopting common standards is preferable. Better for some to learn a new trick once than keep forcing newbies to keep learning a club-racing specific trick everytime they come from another racing format.

[GT1Vette]

At the 2013 June Sprints I made it a point to see how Chicago Region did it, and it was all over the place. Some starters held one finger in the air, another pointed downwards with a Day-Glo glove on their hand, others made no indication at all. Some regions have a big "1" sign, other have a "Last Lap" sign, and (many) others give no signal at all. We need a standard method to indicate you're beginning your last lap.

Starting in 2014 all Majors events used a series-supplied "1 to Go" sign that worked well after Start, T&S, and the stewards figured out how to use it, but that sign was special equipment that someone needed to keep up with. Every flag station (including Start) already has a white flag, so when the BoD changed the GCR effective 6/1/2014 a waving white flag became the standard. Yes, it will take some drivers (particularly those who fail to read the Supps and/or GCR) awhile to figure it out, but every three year old in the country knows what a waving white flag at S/F means.

And a waving yellow flag has a different meaning than a standing yellow, so the "one color with two meanings" ship has already sailed.

As always, YMMV...

[Steve Davis]

Butch,
From my perspective, there *IS* an issue with the white vs checkered albeit not a MAJOR issue (pun intended). The white is being waved EXACTLY like the checker - with great vigor, around the head, swooping wildly in all directions at a fast speed. It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE for a driver to discern that it is WHITE instead of checker by looking at it .... when we are SUPPOSED to be looking at other things for the most part.

I would suggest that the WHITE should be waved SIMPLY and SLOWLY in a simple up/down motion - just enough to keep the flag unfurled. The checker could be waved in whatever vigor the starter so desired. The SIMPLE motion of the white should make it much more clear that it IS, in fact "JUST WHITE" and much less confusing to us brain dead drivers. How should we go about getting that info out to the STARTER crews?? (I know you're not doing that sort of thing any more, but hoping you would know how to address the situation.)

[John Nesbitt]

We are a year into this Waving White rule and drivers still mistake it for a Checker, so there is a problem with using it as a 1-to-go signal.

The difference with the Yellow is that a Standing Yellow and a Waving Yellow are mutually exclusive - a station would never use both at once.

However, if is entirely possible, and I have seen it happen, that Start would find itself wanting to display both a Standing White (for an emergency vehicle) and a Waving White (for last lap).

[problemchild]

We are a year into this Waving White rule and drivers still mistake it for a Checker, .

Many of the drivers at Summit were doing their first race with the new procedure. If all those "dummies" racing at hundreds of oval races every Friday and Saturday can figure out that the first waved flag is white and means 1 to go and the 2nd waved flag means the race is over, then surely the elite sports car racing community can figure this out.

[GT1Vette]

Stevan - Granted it poses an issue when you get lapped by the overall leader on the last lap, but if you've been out there for a while, are coming to Start/Finish and see a waving flag, vigorously or not, it's probably a white flag indicating you're beginning your last lap. Obviously that depends on the officials being accurate, but you have the same issue when throwing the checker as well (more than once I've seen it too early or too late).

John - Some organizations have gone to the motorcycle standard of a white flag with a red cross (plus) to indicate an emergency vehicle is on course, but SCCA has not done that. I know that flag is in all the corner bags at Road Atlanta but I don't know about the rest of the country. Until/unless the red cross flag is added to the GCR, a standing white takes precedence over a waving white even at Start/Finish.

The discussion over the last ten (twenty?) years to adopt the waving white flag rule was very contentious. It's here now and obviously I think it's a good change despite requiring some adjustment/learning on everyone's part. If you feel otherwise, submit a letter a letter to the CRB offering an alternative.

[mmi16]

Don't we all have to pass a physical to maintain our licenses? Isn't a part of that physical an eye exam that also includes color sense?

I have never had trouble discerning the difference between the White Flag, waved or stationary and the Checker Flag.

While I wasn't able to participate in the races at SP. I was able to spectate from Turn 10 and could tell the difference between White and Checker from there.

[NPalacioM3]

Don't we all have to pass a physical to maintain our licenses? Isn't a part of that physical an eye exam that also includes color sense?

I have never had trouble discerning the difference between the White Flag, waved or stationary and the Checker Flag.

I am glad someone else said it.....

[Steve Davis]

I am glad someone else said it.....

I'll bet that if I put you in a car traveling > 90 MPH with 3 or 4 other cars within inches of you (and you CANNOT see the beginning or end of the waving flag) - you will be unable to determine whether it is WHITE or CHECKERED in the milliseconds that are available for studying the flag ... that is moving quite fast in all directions. OH... and coat your car and shield with a light coat of OIL from the car that is inches in front of you .

I think I'll try to dig out some video from my car of waving White vs Checker and see if YOU can tell which is which...

Best I recollect, my Dr. eye test is given standing in a hallway with NO vibrations from 5000 RPM on my chassis, nor 'imminent danger' on all sides with a very short time limit on deciding what it is I'm seeing.

I should add that personally, *I* have had no issue determining which was which .. when I saw BOTH of them. There are times, however, in the heat of battle, when the waving flag at S/F becomes INVISIBLE .. it's NOT YELLOW, BLACK or RED is pretty easy - after that ??
.........

All that said.. the expectation of TWO different waving flags does go a LONG way toward solving the problem .. however, I still suggest that using the SIMPLE wave for the Last Lap indicator would make life better for all concerned. There is NO NEED to wave the LL indicator like the final checker. Waving is good.. just not VIGOROUSLY as if it was the checker (as in my post above).