Thoughts on this FV (new to the FV world)

[rsm688]

Okay guys I have been dying to get into FV's since I first saw one years ago, I'm finally ready to bite the bullet and get one. I'm a veterinary student on student loans so I am going to be building a Vee on a budget.

I'm potentially picking up this one tomorrow, I wanted to get some thoughts/opinions/observations on this one, as well as anything I need to inspect closely when looking at it.

It was last raced in 1998, last run in 2008, has a 1600cc motor I was told the previous owner was starting to build it into a formula solo but it got put on the backburner and never got finished. He said it's a predator/bushwacker/vista chassis and missing the nose cone, fuel cell, and front shocks. Said the body has a few cracks in it as well and he does have the other matching rear wheel, seat, etc.







Thanks,
Spencer

[Bob VanDyke]

At $1500, projects like this almost always end for sale a few years later in worse shape. You will spend about $800 for new tires. FV doesn't use a 1600 engine, so you need a 1200. Even a moderately prepped engine to get you through schools would be $1500-$2500. And good luck finding a nose for it.

You would be much better off financially and have much more fun with something like these cars -

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65533

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63312

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66748

Even if you have more time than money, cheap projects are a false economy.

Best of luck.

[BLS]

Spencer,

Hard to say from pictures. However, there are likely a lot of expensive items which must be purchased to complete this as an SCCA FV for club racing. Since it has a 1600 engine, that will have to be replaced with a legal 1200. Lots of other things as well, fuel cell, fire system, belts, etc. that must be in good condition.

So, if you want something to work on and play with, and it's really cheap, then it might be OK. But it will likely cost as much or more than a running FV ready to go.


Regards,
Barry

[Agitator]

It looks like Predator bodywork. When new, it was probably a Vista Bushwacker.OR a Predator. Not sure how it can be a Predator AND a Vista, unless it's a Frankenstein car made out of two chassises! I know that I have seen the name that is on that car before. Perhaps someone on here could trace it who knows the driver.

A lot of folks will tell you that even if you get it for cheap, you'll end up spending a load of $$ to make it driveable. I think it all depends on what you want to use it for. If solo is your goal, then it might be manageable. If you want to put it on the track, it's definitely not worth it. The 1600 is useless in any SCCA track class. You'll spend several thousand $$ to put it on the track.

There have been several running cars on here (and other places) for $4K or less. They wouldn't run at the front of the grid, but could easily be solo'd or used for Regionals. You will get a lot of advice from people who have been doing this a LONG time that will tell you to just save enough to get a reliable, decently maintained car. It will cost you less in the long run. I tend to agree. These cars may use 50+ year old technology, but you can spend hundreds (maybe thousands) or hours resurrecting a basket case. If you have the time, patience, and mechanical ability for it, then go for it!

Understand that you're not alone. Most people enter this class without deep pockets. Best of luck!

[Albatross]

You're buying a "Pandora's Box"!

[Agitator]

A quick search turned up this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie...php?id=1764499

Pretty sure this is Predator bodywork. Not trying to convince you to go that direction, but you can find ALMOST anything if you look hard enough.

[GT1Vette]

Assuming it's the same person, R. David Jones is a long-time member and former Director from the SWDiv. I know he resigned from the BoD a couple of years ago, but if he's still around someone from the National office should be able to contact him if you're interested.

Depending on where you want to race, is FST an option?

[rsm688]

Thanks for the advice guys. I know I'm probably not going to have the money to drop to get a fully race ready SCCA FV at the moment. I was looking at this more of a longer project. I was hoping I could get it up and running and slowly go through updating and restoring it and have it to drive around and play with and get the feel of driving a FV as I go. Being in vet school I am on call many weekends so it would be hard to race at this moment considering I am in Mississippi right now and there are not any FV races that happen around here that I know of. I really just want a VEE to build, play with, and get the feel of driving and then in a year when I graduate and am free step up to actually racing.


Right now my budget on what I can spend is capped at about $2000ish (small I know but like I said I'm on student loans so this comes from my play toy money from other projects I have flipped).

I got the guy down to $1250 on it



While I'm at it, what would you guys say about this vintage 65 Bobsy? I am just two hours away from the seller and have talked to him before about a few other vehicles he has had.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-FORM...p2054897.l4275



Agitator, thanks for the link. I actually saw that and was interested in it if I pick up that project although he said he doesn't want to ship and that body work is a LONG way away from me.



Thanks again,
Spencer

[rsm688]

Assuming it's the same person, R. David Jones is a long-time member and former Director from the SWDiv. I know he resigned from the BoD a couple of years ago, but if he's still around someone from the National office should be able to contact him if you're interested.

Depending on where you want to race, is FST an option?

You are absolutely correct, I already contacted them yesterday and they sent him an email with the pictures and my information to see if it was indeed his car and if so if he has any information on it.

[fvee62]

I have to go along with the majority here and advise against this basket case. If you have a little patience and keep an eye on this site and the Vee Interchange I think you can find a much more complete project in your price range.
I run a Caldwell D-13 and it is still very competitive at Regionals and is a great handling Vee to boot, which is a plus if you are just getting started in racing. These come up for sale pretty often and can usually be purchased very reasonably.

[blackhole]

You have to ask yourself. Do I have a garage that if fully outfitted with every hand tool, welder, grinders, sand blaster and countless other specialty tools? Have I ever done a restoration before on anything? Do I have $8000+ to put in this car? If the answer is "NO". This is not the car for you.

I know project cars looks like fun when you see them done on TV. Honestly save your money buy a complete car and than take it apart and learn how to put it togeather.

[Ian Lenhart]

Please list how you came up with $8000?
I think someone could restore this car with some harbor freight tools and parts for under $2000.

Found some noses, just need to convince the current owner to sell one for cheap:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...ight=Free+nose

There is also a cheap fuel cell on Apexspeed.

Some wire brushes and some spray paint.

It's a Regional Vee!!!

[blackhole]

Firstly I have built 3 FVs from the ground up. Ive been there many times.

If you want to do it right. Assuming he wants to build it into a 1200.

A decent engine $3000

Since it has a 1600 engine in it probally has a long box tranny. Converting to a shortbox with a freshening $500

Body Paint Job over $1200

Frame Paint Job $150 assuming he can do the sandblasting himself.

New rod ends $270

Fire System $350

Don't know if it has a transponder if not $500

Certified Fuel Cell that fits into that car not a cheap chinese knockoff $800

New Belts $250

Tires $650-$800 I don;t know the exact cost of slicks as I race in canada.

New Brakes and bearings $200 assuming you don't need new drums.

So far I'm at $8000 you havent done any electrical or shocks yet. Front shocks depedning on what you want at $70 for VW units add $200 for generic oval shocks or $500+ for penskes. Rear shock add $300-$1500 depending on what you want.

Still to come unexpected surprises and they always show up!

Not to mention the 100's of hours it takes to do it.

[provamo]

BUY IT

[Ian Lenhart]

Firstly I have built 3 FVs from the ground up. Ive been there many times.

If you want to do it right. Assuming he wants to build it into a 1200.

A decent engine $3000

Since it has a 1600 engine in it probally has a long box tranny. Converting to a shortbox with a freshening $500

Body Paint Job over $1200

Frame Paint Job $150 assuming he can do the sandblasting himself.

New rod ends $270

Fire System $350

Don't know if it has a transponder if not $500

Certified Fuel Cell that fits into that car not a cheap chinese knockoff $800

New Belts $250

Tires $650-$800 I don;t know the exact cost of slicks as I race in canada.

New Brakes and bearings $200 assuming you don't need new drums.

So far I'm at $8000 you havent done any electrical or shocks yet. Front shocks depedning on what you want at $70 for VW units add $200 for generic oval shocks or $500+ for penskes. Rear shock add $300-$1500 depending on what you want.

Still to come unexpected surprises and they always show up!

Not to mention the 100's of hours it takes to do it.

Hahahahaha.... Yes, everyone spends $1200 on a paint job and $3000 grand for used regional motor. $150 to paint a chassis? A can of rustolium cost $5.00
Rod ends, you are assuming all rod ends are bad?
Really???
A new ATL wedge cell is $500
Trade the motor for a 1200 from someone building a first or solo Vee.

So many ways to save money...so why don't we help a guy out and give the guys tips on how to save money without jeopardizing safety.
No need to build a competitive car.

Ian

[Agitator]

Body Paint Job over $1200

You did a fine job of quoting most of the stuff needed...however, $1200 for a paint job??? Come on, the guy just wants a STARTER car. Assuming he does ALL the other stuff, 5 cans of Krylon and a mask to keep his lungs somewhat clear will get him on the track for 30 bucks. Paint never won anyone a race or even helped them complete a lap! I don't want to nit pick, but let's keep the figures realistic. We're trying to attract people to the class, not scare them away.

[mikehinkle]

Keep your eyes peeled I bought a rolling car with engine for $1200 I spent almost the same amount of money to ship the car... but I think it was well worth it.
Since you don't have any races going on in your area you can find a car club that does autocross type events or hillclimbs and have something fun and unique to bring to the events. If you get serious later you can sell it to buy another race ready vee.
I wouldn't worry about getting a complete vee if your not looking to race. You wont need a FIA rated fuel cell or fire system or even fancy race tires to run autox/hill climbs
just make sure you get a complete chassis, front end and hopefully all the steering bits. transmission and engine would be a major plus.

I've been fixing my car up for almost a year I had to spend pretty good money to get it race ready but i'm still under what a 'race ready' vee would have cost because i'm using a spray can to paint my chassis and a roller to paint my body =P will it be fast? I doubt it but we'll see! I like projects as much as I like the end result.. some times I like the project more then the end result.

EDIT: I would buy the predator thing.. offer less in person. It looks like its all there and has a engine. Clean it up and get it running... you'll have fun. Plus you dont need a body to run auto x

[blackhole]

Thank you for once again proving why I don't post on the forum anymore. Talking to a bunch of people that don't do things the right way. Anyway take away the paint Job for 1200 it will still cost more to build it than buy one.The point I'm trying to making is buy a car that has all the stuff I listed for $6000.

Hey what do I know I have only built three FVs that run at the front of the pack.

If your not going to try and build a somewhat competive car what's the point?

Anyways frankly I could care less what he does I'm just trying to be honest with the guy. If you ever built a car you would know how the stuff really starts to add up.

[provamo]

quote from the original poster

"I am wanting one to build, play with, and get the feel of driving to help me make the move into the racing world."

this kid is hot to trot, just let him do his thing

be interesting to see out this turns out in five years

[Steve Bamford]

Sorry guys but I agree with Kevin. There are many better deals to buy. The likelihood of getting this car back together to actually be able to race are slim without lots of dollars. Safety is a major issue that doing something half assed won't help. I understand what was posted to have fun with however to say you don't want something to at least have a hope of being competitive at some point is unlikely.

There are better ways to spend your money.

[Steve Bamford]

Thank you for once again proving why I don't post on the forum anymore. Talking to a bunch of people that don't do things the right way. Anyway take away the paint Job for 1200 it will still cost more to build it than buy one.The point I'm trying to making is buy a car that has all the stuff I listed for $6000.

Hey what do I know I have only built three FVs that run at the front of the pack.

If your not going to try and build a somewhat competive car what's the point?

Anyways frankly I could care less what he does I'm just trying to be honest with the guy. If you ever built a car you would know how the stuff really starts to add up.

Don't worry about it if someone doesn't agree with what you wrote. That's simply part of life. Many others will agree with you and simply not write it. Can't take it personally as everyone, well most, mean well and are simply giving their opinion.

[Agitator]

Hey what do I know I have only built three FVs that run at the front of the pack.

If your not going to try and build a somewhat competive car what's the point?

Anyways frankly I could care less what he does I'm just trying to be honest with the guy. If you ever built a car you would know how the stuff really starts to add up.

You're right, I don't know anything about building a front running Vee. I just wanted to give the guy some advice, but if we're gonna throw accomplishments around: My dad won the Runoffs in a car that had a rattle can paint job. The race it debuted at (won and set a track record the first time it had ever run under power) didn't have any paint at all - just aluminum and some gelcoat fiberglass, because it had just been completed the day before the race. But I guess that isn't the "right way". I also helped him build 17 other Vees from the ground up, that have won over 150 SCCA races...But, then again, what do I know?

My point was simply about your inflated paint job. If you can't just say "yeah, that's not very important" and move on, then that isn't my problem. I'm just trying to help the guy get started instead of building a front running national (major) car as his first car. Very few young people have the unlimited resources to build a front running car as their first, even a Vee. If we tell our limited audience that they have to have a front running car to play, then we're not going to have many people in the sandbox.

All said, I think most of us agree that this is probably not the car to start with.

[Purple Frog]

I have a different perspective. Forget SCCA racing. You are in vet school.

Buy that car and learn how to get it running. Then go Solo / Track days for a while. Doesn't even have to be SCCA solo. Leave the 1600 in it. You could reinstall a bug fan housing. You don't need a body. You probably could use any fabbed up fuel tank. Belts wouldn't be an issue. Get some aftermarket wheels off eBay, and put used FF or FC tires on it. Buy a fire extinguisher from Home Depot. Get a copy of Hot VWs magazine. For autocrossing/hillclimbing to start out you can use stock bug brakes, even NAPA front shocks.
Don't worry about what class they put you in as long as they let you in.
I think with a lot of elbow grease and rattle can paint you could be autocrossing under $2,000.

Start a "build blog" on this site and you might even find yourself getting donated used parts.


Go out and have a blast. What you learn will be valuable when you get out of school and can afford a real money pit.

How do I know? I did the same thing in the mid-70s (probably before your parents were born)
That car for sale is a hell of a lot better than what I started with.

I even know where you can get a set of expired 6 point belts.

[provamo]

love the pipes!

[BLS]

So, if you want something to work on and play with, and it's really cheap, then it might be OK. But it will likely cost as much or more than a running FV ready to go.

Spencer, that comment in my post seems to sum up what most are saying. An up front or mid pack FV it is not and will cost more to get it there than one can be purchased for.

We don't know your skill level or what your resources are. But to just have something to begin honing your mechanical skill set and play with I don't see a problem. As pointed out, if the purchase price is right and you are resourceful you can probably get it to the autocross level with a small investment and lots of work. A front of the pack car can come later when you are earning the big bucks

I was in school when I built my first FV. I was fortunate to have parents that figured being in the garage *might* keep me out of trouble, so funding wasn't the same issue. Not much that I would trade that experience for.

[Jeremy Soule]

I'm with Mr. frog on this....
I can tell by your post that you have that deep desire to race. And the fact that you are even looking at this car is an indication that you like a chalinging project. Go for it! But know that the final cost may be higher as many have said on this thread and I agree ( Ask me how I know). There are no shortcuts in racing. But this is a great way to really learn the car develop your fabracating skills and collect the tools and equipment nessarly to maintaining and developing a formula car.

Some additional ideas....
Tell the seller you will give him $900 and let him drive it when you get it running(at a solo event). "I'm a poor student and will need every cent to get this lump race ready" etc.
Go to the track whenever they are racing in your area, ask questions, show pictures of your car, you might get donated parts that way or discounted anyway. Till you start to beat them most racers will help you out, they need practice passing
If there is an engineering Dep. At your school check out if they have a Formula SAE program, you'll find some like minded people there.
Hope this helps. Good luck! J

[mikehinkle]

A little elbow grease can get you a smile out of anything with a engine.
I bought this rusted pile of parts from apexspeed
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64740

a couple of months later I autocrossed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sW8iUORfFE

You don't need a expensive vee and if you end up wanting to race you should be able to sell it on to another auto x racer for about what you have into it (assuming you don't buy things you do not need )

I don't have much money at all but I did what you want to do.

Go do it!
and tell us your story

[csingletary01]

R David is still racing with us in CVAR. Contact Bill Griffin at Bigger Hammer Racing and he could probably get you in touch with R. David.

[Jphoenix]

Start a "build blog" on this site and you might even find yourself getting donated used parts.

Yes, do what the Frog says - I have parts I'll never use that I would give you just to see you successful in your racing passion.

Go to wwwformulavee.org if you haven't already - lots of good info there.

[rsm688]

THANKS A TON GUYS for all the information, advice, and opinions. I'm glad to see both sides of the arguments here for and against the ride. Too many comments for me to reply individually to all of them.

I'm very mechanically inclined. I've built numerous motorcycles and cars/trucks. My only real weakness is I have virtually no internal motor experience other than dirt bike motors, mainly because I have been lucky enough with all the motors in my projects to never have to do any internal engine work (knock on wood). I can do my own paint and bodywork, rebuild the carbs, rebuilt the brakes, wiring, etc with no problem. Most of what I have built in the past was offroad vehicles (old jeeps, broncos, etc.) and motorcycles.

I've always wanted to get into racing and just stumbled across a FV on a guy's trailer at a gas station two years ago or so and got fascinated by them. I've been lurking around looking for one for a while but have had no luck finding anything near to me.

I actually found a MUCH nicer vee that is complete for not too much more from a user here on the forum. I am going to be making the long haul from Mississippi to Virginia in two weeks to pick it up. The engine is by Rollin Butler at Cricket Farms Motors in Greenville, SC. It has not been fired up in a few years but looks super clean and has been stored indoors. It was bought as a back up for a guy that was running in nationals and he never used it so it's been sitting in his shop. It seems the last time it was raced was in the 2000s. I will definitely be posting a build thread and tons of information and pictures once I pick it up and figure out what parts I am going to need for it.

The plan is once I get it up and running and get the feel of a vee, to start racing in some autocross races since they are more common in my area of the country than FV races. There is usually an autocross race every month and one of the main locations is just 25 minutes from me so it will be convenient to get started that way.


Thanks again for the help/advice and for the offers on helping me get started with parts I might need and all. I will definitely keep everyone posted.

Spencer

[rdfrancis]

so.... 7 months later... give us an update on your project!

[Rolling Stone]

I worked with competition horses for 20 yrs,if he becomes a large animal vet he can race anything!!!!!vet bills =BIG BUCKS!!!!

[pacratt]

Looks like a later model Predator frame - HOWEVER - those trailing arms ARE NOT.
They look like Lynx-B (or that style).
Could be someone either modified a Predator or built a homemade morph.
BUT judging by the condition in the photos... walk away from this OR plan on a looooong winter of reconditioning EVERYTHING. (no offense to the seller).
If you DO decide to go with this car, I wouldn't offer much for it, considering all the work & parts it needs. (again, no offense to the seller).
The best thing would be to get in touch with Jonesy to learn the history (ins & outs) of this car.
Glenn Lange