So...to ask the question again, Mr Stowe; are any of the motor configurations you are proposing currently legal in Club FA? Can one of them be made legal?
So...to ask the question again, Mr Stowe; are any of the motor configurations you are proposing currently legal in Club FA? Can one of them be made legal?
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Actually he is not afraid to state that he is trying to change the class. He wants 300hp and about 1200lbs min weight. This is certainly a fast combination but it means that every single current Atlantic car will no longer have any chance to be competitive.Originally Posted by Bob Wright
current 014 Toyota powered Atlantic 250+hp 1275 lbs with all the goodies = 5.1 lb/hp
Current 016 with 2.3 Mazda 300+hp 1420 lbs = 4.73 lbs/hp
Stores new motor formula 300 hp 1200 lbs = 4 lb/hp.
How does this plan help the class? It does not unless you want to spend a ton of $$$$ to get there for every existing car. Then you can bet that new cars will cost around $250K delivered.
How does his plan help anyone in FA other than the person who has stated several times that he wants to be the engine component supplier?
Enough of this thread for me. Let me know what happens.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Any idea on the power to weight ratios for the Honda in both tubs?
Steve Bamford
With development, 300hp is readily attainable from a legal BDA 1600, given its potential valve area, and bore/stroke, and I would expect a minimum of 280 the very first time a properly-specified and engineered BD goes on the dyno. I don't really care whether the weight is 1200 or 1250, I just want the class to keep its edge. The first person that goes through the pain of an 014 conversion will be doing everyone else a huge favor. I am not talking about one of my TVI cylinder heads, but a fully-legal BD. Add another 12-15% output for one of mine, but again, it is not legal, and it is not what I am referring to here.
300 hp may sound like a lot, but that is where F2 cars were circa 1980, and they did not begin to have the downforce of modern formula cars.
Anyway, the already-legal BD I am talking about would be in no way unique to me in that any good builder or supplier can accomplish the performance being discussed here (if they are willing to do the work), and yes, I do cast BD heads, but so do other people, and their product is legal too. Qui Bono? Formula Atlantic, because the BD will sound and go so much better than what is being driven now. I prefer not to have spec engine suppliers; I would rather see some healthy competition between builders and suppliers. My goal here is to get someone to break the mold a bit, and try one in an 014 or similar chassis...
I would expect conversion kits/procedures to be developed once the BD becomes recognized. A BD doesn't cost any more than a 4AGE to produce, so unless you want to ban ALL 1600s, it is a viable option to keep racing engines alive in the class. I don't see how you get 250k out of that.
Eventually, unless F/A is to become a graveyard, new chassis will need to come into the class. If they are carbon chassis, their initial cost will be substantially larger than that of any engine...By the way, if you think guaranteed spec engines with minimum lifetimes are cheap, check out what current Fia F3 engines cost. RET had it a over 100K...be careful what you wish for...
Thank you for answering.
If I understand you correctly, a BDA 1600 ccould produce 280 hp or more legally? From your earlier posts, you imply the life cycle of such a motor might be 10-15 hrs. or 1000-1500 miles, or perhaps a bit more. Going the next logical step and adding longevity seems attainable to my uneducated mind from your posts.
Why isn't this motor in one or more 014s or RT41s right now? There are a couple of people I can think of who spent a lot of money developing 4AGEs who might jump at one of these (dare I say 016 killers?).
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
[QUOTE=Bob Wright;473494]Thank you for answering.
If I understand you correctly, a BDA 1600 ccould produce 280 hp or more legally? From your earlier posts, you imply the life cycle of such a motor might be 10-15 hrs. or 1000-1500 miles, or perhaps a bit more. Going the next logical step and adding longevity seems attainable to my uneducated mind from your posts.
Why isn't this motor in one or more 014s or RT41s right now? There are a couple of people I can think of who spent a lot of money developing 4AGEs who might jump at one of these (dare I say 016 killers?).[/QUOT
Hi Bob,
With the help of some very smart friends, I changed my RT41 to a short stroke BD. It involved a custom adapter to the Staffs Box, Motec ECU, coil on plug conve,ration, bespoke barrel throttle, hi pressure fuel pump, ram air horn, and chassis synonym mapping.
This was not a cheap project, and the end result was more than the car was worth.
Wee saw 272hp and 150 lb/ft torque ,corrected numbers.
My misguided attempt at a sequential conversion was the downfall, but that's another story. I believe Jay's cost numbers to be wildly inaccurate, based on my personal experience. Mr Stowe's remarks about recent BD improvements in head, valve, cam toons will improve longevity and power, imho.
The complete super short stroke , 90mm alloy block BD should run around 35-40k as a one-off... Add the cost of a donor 014, tyranny adapter, etc to see if it makes sense. I don't think it would be an 016 killer, but it would certainly be competitive....Even though the 016 is heavier, it has bigger tunnels, wings, and brakes.
How about one of you 4age guys sharing your actual corrected hp for the top line, gantry injection engine.....then there will something to discuss...
Bill G
Please forgive my many typos...
How's that? The current engines are pretty much expendable. Do they even last a season?
Current.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
At 27 m/sec, a well-built motor should go 1200-1800 miles. That corresponds to about 10,500 for a 81mm engine, 11,800 for an 86mm engine, and 12,400 for an 88mm engine. Bill went even shorter, but because the intake valves have to remain at 1.5" apart per the rules, I don't think there was any advantage to the bigger bore, since the potential valve area could not have been fully exploited. With any of the short-stroke combinations, the BD has a substantial increase in valve area over the Toyota.
All of the Cosworth legacy cams available for BDs are terrible by modern standards: long duration, low lift; these cams were designed before modern valve springs. There are excellent vacuum-remelt springs available today at quite reasonable cost that fit right in to a BD. The problem with the legacy cams is that the long duration kills driveability on a large-port engine, particularly if it is carbureted. The nice thing about the BD is its separate camtray, which is expressly allowed to be free in its design. The tappets are much bigger than a 4AGE's, so a far better profile can be readily developed; all that is needed is a replacement camtray. To give an idea of what is being lost with the original camtray, let's look at the effects. The original camtray forces an uncomfortably small base circle when a high-lift cam is used. The "hottest" legacy cam is the DA-12, which has a .450" lift and a duration of 322 degrees. Compare that to a more recent cam, where the lift will approach (or even exceed).500" and the duration will be 308 degrees or less. Yet, that same modern cam will have more area under the curve, and allow more total airflow, all while jerking the valve less because of its superior ramp design due, in part, to a larger base circle. This is the one significant component problem hampering the BD, and it is easily solved, and again, expressly allowed in the rules.
It is this combination high rpm potential, large valve area, line-of-sight porting, and robust valvetrain, all at a completely acceptable piston speed, that makes the BD a truly exceptional base engine when compared to any other 1600 that can be homolgated under current rules.
The downside...That larger bore potential makes for a longer engine, and the overhung belt drive which stands out from the front of the motor only adds to its length, so that could be one packaging issue for starters. Bill Gillespie could speak far more intelligently about that than I can, since he has done a successful conversion.
Oh yeah, one more thing: at 88mm the alloy block has an indefinite lifetime because it has plenty of material between the bores, and it can be re-sleeved many times.
You should build one as an investment.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
In fact, all kidding aside, I have thought about it...I don't have a car to put it in, and my old BT-29 (still in pieces) doesn't seem like a real candidate...Haven't done any racing since the late-seventies...every coming year was going to be the season that I was going to get back to it...funny how the years go by...
My wife patiently let me develop the TVI head at my own expense...
But I digress...
If someone is truly interested, I would do a lot for free to get a project going. I bought out some of Jenning's old stock awhile back, and have a short-stroke bottom end that I would be willing to donate to the effort for starters. It is not perfect, but it is a good starting point.
Any updates on the Honda HP or cost numbers? I don't run in FA right now but have been watching this from the outside with a lot of interest. Haven't seen anything on the topic in over a year.
As someone that owns Dallara and knows guy in question i will say yes if it's USF3 spec.
However there is only 6-8 cars in existence.
Built quality is remarkable ,mono shock set up is bit tricky ,but no biggie.
VW USF3 motor rebuilds every 20-30 hours 3 to 6k depending of how extensive.
With 8 cars now much of a pool or racing competition.
If brought from Europe(where pound is plummeting and most of these cars are in UK)
They have lots of engine options ,but all guys that do rebuilds are in Europe
and average full rebuild is 15k euros.
So excellent car ,but not enough brought in to compete .
I will use mine as track day and vintage car.
I have done very extensive research on motor options in US .
Mercedes motor has no block or head relevance in US models and euro motor is stupid expensive(50k)
Honda uses K20 block (S2000 ) with civic SI R heads also not available in US.
Toyota uses Block and head that only come for street car in Europe.
WV is closest contender since mounting and bell housing will fit block that VW has produced in million copies.Golf 2 or bug ,or jetta second gen.
Opel motor not relevant US as well.
Other that all these very extensive issues it is super well engineered and build ,fantastic car.
Follow my tread ,restore will be complete in few weeks.
P.S.
Mark wasn't a bad guy ,just way too aggressive and passionate about cause.
Works in F3 in Europe now ,where he wanted to be in the first place.
Maris Kazia ,CEO
EuroKraft Inc Racing
Circuito do Sol
2014 Radical SR 3 RSX, 2x Tatuus FA 01
BMW HP2 .BMW K1200 R.Porsche 996 Carerra 4s
Fixed It
that's just mean.......
lol.
Maris Kazia ,CEO
EuroKraft Inc Racing
Circuito do Sol
2014 Radical SR 3 RSX, 2x Tatuus FA 01
BMW HP2 .BMW K1200 R.Porsche 996 Carerra 4s
Thanks for the reply but I am little confused, what does F3 have to do with Brian Novak's Honda powered FA? Did I miss something? I was hoping someone could provide an update on the FA Honda package, it's HP, and it's costs. Thanks!
My grapevine says Honda discontinued support of the project...
Honda out Mazda in
What I heard from an SCCA source was that they were somewhat disappointed with Honda's level of support, and that there is a new sealed MZR-based engine from Elite specifically for the 014 chassis. The SCCA guy said that the conversion will be about 40k (or was it 14K? not sure.) Anyway, Steve Knapp would probably be able to answer any questions. You will see a reference to this engine in the August GCR engine table. Before anyone gets worked up, check the accuracy of the above; it was a hurried call, and I might not have my facts absolutely correct, and possibly his comment about Honda was a personal opinion.
The reason I enquired was that I was getting ready to develop a replacement head casting for the 4AGE with legal ports re-worked to the best configuration allowed in the GCR (There is a surprising amount of latitude in port and chamber shape as long as valve positions are the same, and the flanges are the same.), and a host of strengthening and reliability improvements. The goal was to re-shape the ports and combustion chamber enough to raise the BMEP sufficiently to bring the motor back down to a 10,000 rpm shift point and still have good, competitive power. The lower shift point should allow significantly increased time between rebuilds. Given the new MZR engine being allowed in, I am not sure this is a good idea now, but I would invite any comments people might have. If there are still enough drivers interested, I will go ahead with the project.
I could be wrong but I believe Beasley already has a 014 with a MZR engine in it that they wanted to run early on in the season, at Road Atlanta in April, but at the time they were not allowed to run for points so kept it in the trailer.
Steve Bamford
If I'm not mistaken, I saw this chassis/engine combo run at the June Sprints with Spencer driving.
My Rt41 was designed around the specific dimensions of the 4age.......when we converted it to a BDD, the adapter had to be machined at a slight angle for clearance issues on the dry sump, etc.
This change altered the suspension geometry, and required raising the rear ride height and that affected tunnel efficiency, etc....
The Swift 014 was specifically designed around the 4age also.....Ove Ollson has an 014 with the MZR installed . He can give you an accurate answer on any installation issues to overcome.
It was too many $$ for me to redesign the Ralt from the tub rearward, but that short stroke, barrel throttle , gantry-injected BDD sure was sweet !!!
Regards,
Bill
Ove ???
There is a spec MZR engine approved for the 014 in FA. Check the June Fastrack for Tech Bulletin 16-06 (Page 14).... that there is a new sealed MZR-based engine from Elite specifically for the 014 chassis. ...
Terry
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