AMB transponders now require "subscription"?
The X2 transponder is the only hardwired one I see on the AMB site (mylaps) and they make it seem like you need a flex subscription.
What is that exactly? Do you need to license the transponder now? Or is it just for getting the results on their terrible website.
Basically on the new X2 transponders you buy the unit and then pay for the time you want to use it. 1,2 or 5 year deal. You can re up after that of course and the longer the plan the better the deal. The X2 units will cost less initially for the hardware and can be hard wire or rechargeable with the same unit.Originally Posted by mousecatcher
The original 260 units will still work as normal and will not cost you the subscription.
The X2 will have some cool features such as live timing back to the car and other features being developed.
Hope that helps!
Bob Clark
Last edited by Bob Clark; 03.10.15 at 12:41 PM. Reason: text
AMB is a perfect example of how a great idea can go wrong once they corner the market.
What we really need now is an open source timing system based on a standard, not this proprietary BS.
Given the expansion into all forms of competition, I'm surprised there's not some kind of IEEE, SAE, or other standard.
Looks like the market price for used units is about to go up..
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
It appears that you can still buy a hard wired tran x 260 transponder that doesn't require a subscription
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...asp?RecID=3061
Am I missing something?
The hardwired units are no longer being produced so they will only be available until stock is depleted,so I was told. HRP and a few other online catalogs only has a few left each, so I snapped one up before supply and demand up the price.
Vote with your wallet, folks:
If you don't like this new model: don't buy them!
yes but what is the alternative
+1 for open source.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
Just like the Mylaps website update. Giving the customer something he didn't ask for or wants.
Crossle 32F, Piper DF5 Honda
Yeah, I was missing something. Thanks.
It looks like the new X2 transponder is $462 with a five year subscription and $228 with a one year subscription. I don't think it is going to be a big deal, but it's pretty annoying.
Just to pile on, their website is the most stunningly incompetent thing I have ever seen on the internet.
It also seems like Race Monitor has gone to having to subscribe to the races. I haven't updated the app so mine is still working, but it's pretty dishonest to charge people $10 for an app and then change the game to get more money out of them.
Thread Hijack
So if I understand it correctly we are going to have to pay a subscription for the app yearly then have to pay to access certain races as well? Or is the subscription cost going away then simply pay for whatever content you want?
Steve Bamford
If it's not asking you to subscribe now then DON'T update Race monitor. Once you update you'll be stuck having to subscribe if you want live timing. It still functions to provide race results with no cost, but to watch live is $0.99 a month
If I understand it correctly, you are now going to have to pay either $0.99/month or $4.99/year and that will get you access to everything. I don't think that you have to pay for races individually after that.
I haven't updated my app, so I am not sure.
If all this extra expense is true, is there any way we could push SCCA or if SCCA could push AMB to make things cheaper somehow? After all, SCCA requires us to use AMB, so they're responsible for aiding this monopoly somewhat.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
Are there any other transponder companies?
I did a quick google and came up with maybe one other transponder company.
While an SCCA discout would be great, it appears that SCCA is as much at their mercy as everyone else. I assume that all of the tracks have AMB timing equipment and the SCCA doesn't have much choice.
I'm not sure I see another option beyond doing away with transponders and that is too awful to consider.
I hope that AMB just never gets the bright idea to update their T&S software to only register times from transponders with current subscriptions.
The local karting club switched to a Chinese made "off brand" transponder that worked with the AMB system. I believe the downside was that you couldn't log onto the AMB site and look through your times, though I could be mistaken as that was quite some time ago now.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
Does the Westhold Transponder work with the timing device used by SCCA?
Graham
Not sure what sort of patents are in place, but it really shouldn't be all that hard to duplicate or come up with a compatible system.. I'm barely competent at the English language, anyone out there good with Legalese? Would it be illegal to fab up and sell a transponder that works with the AMB timing loop?
Subscription pricing on racemonitor I can understand. On a transponder, I just don't see the value.
So I was just trying to figure out why my transponder laps weren't showing up in my MyLaps dashboard. I have a transponder on my FE and one on my RC truck that I race. Apparently when you buy a used transponder and the previous owner had registered the unit under their account while they owned it then the only way to register the transponder onto your account is to pay $42.06 for this administrative fee PER transponder. On top of this you must know the email address the previous user used, their full name, or the last event they were at. Seriously? Who is going to steal a transponder and who really thinks that the thief would care that they can't see their laps on the website? Hell, it would have been close to the same price to just buy brand new for the FE and will end up being MORE for the RC transponder. Surely the link the customer service rep sent me via email is incorrect or perhaps they don't understand what it is I'm trying to do.
This is what happens when a company has a strangle hold of their market. I know of another transponder company that works with AMB's system. The issue is every time AMB updates their system they want the tracks to use the new update. When the track updates the AMB system it alters the way the transponder communicates with the tracks receiver. The "other" company's transponder must be sent in every time there is an update to allow it to communicate with the new update. We could just have the tracks not every update the system and use the "other" much cheaper transponder but I don't see that happening in this lifetime. The "other" transponder appears to be a high quality unit as well.
PS. IIRC the "other" transonder was FREE to have altered to work with whatever the newer AMB update uses. You just have to pay your own shipping.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
AMB does charge that stupid fee for "transferring" a transponder. I bought one on ebay a while ago and they asked me for all the information from the previous owner I sent them a link to the auction and they let it go after charging me the fee.
There are no other transponder companies out there because AMB bought them all. There were two other small companies that had systems for motocross and then AMB bought them out then showed up at the track and gave you a great deal on trading in your old transponder for a new one. Everyone had to do it to race.
I understand the subscription fee and I kind of like it. If they provide online access to your lap times and all of your racing history all that information has be stored somewhere and providing it to you costs AMB money on a monthly basis. So charging a subscription fee makes some sense and hopefully with these new transponders we'll get more then just lap times.
With that said I still think the cost of a new unit is a little crazy I know these things are not that advanced. They should be more like cell phone plans... giving away phones to get you to pay monthly.
So in a nutshell AMB was the original spec for SCCA transponder use.
Now that they have cornered the market, it sounds like an anti trust / monopoly situation. And AMB is putting the screws to all of us.
Anyone remember how much Tab McBlane hated the idea of having to buy transponders.
At least the SCCA should get some royalty from AMB now that AMB is screwing the racers because an AMB is required by SCCA.
lol good one! Have you SEEN mylaps.com?
Sorry if I'm overly cynical.
The problem with an open source design is that a) the software system has to WORK. Track/group organizers can't be futzing around with hobby level software. Yes of course there is some absolutely great open source software but something this niche ain't gonna attract those developers, and software needs constant maintenance, which is a huge problem with open source if you don't have huge market share / momentum. Of course I don't know how well (or not) the AMB software works.
Second, even ignoring those problems, someone has to build compatible transponders. In an open source, patent free world, who is going to take that on if they think the field is wide open to any other manufacturer to come along? For very large markets this is fine, but for the limited number of sales that this market has, plus the problem of having to displace AMB, I just don't see it happening.
I do see that the westhold transponder is $170 vs $500 for the AMB. Probably $10 BOM and $40 to package it, so right there you can witness the power of a monopoly. I personally don't mind paying for quality products, but that is just gouging. The subscription on top of that, is frustrating.
What might work, assuming the AMB design is not patent encumbered, is an open source hardware design. You could buy a premade board on sparkfun or wherever. Then it's up to the individual racer if they want to DIY. I could see that the X2 might have some kind of digital signature such that it doesn't work when the sub is "expired", but to the extent that AMB still supports legacy non-authenticated transponders, a DIY hardware design might be feasible.
Maybe I'm wrong on how hard it is to build a transponder. ie, if very precise antenna or other such things are required, that are beyond DIY capability. I mean, it is millisecond timing.
And anyway, my frustration is purely theoretical. I only have old style, non-subscription transponders. I know I need another one this year so I bought it now just in case.
I don't think that AMB cornered the market because of SCCA. The SCCA just doesn't matter enough.So in a nutshell AMB was the original spec for SCCA transponder use.
Now that they have cornered the market, it sounds like an anti trust / monopoly situation. And AMB is putting the screws to all of us.
Anyone remember how much Tab McBlane hated the idea of having to buy transponders.
At least the SCCA should get some royalty from AMB now that AMB is screwing the racers because an AMB is required by SCCA.
Sorry, but anyone opposed to transponders is wrong. The good that they do outweighs the bad and it's not close.
I think your mistaken by stating that open source and hobby grade DIY are the same level of quality. Open source can be any quality the developer wishes depending on their talent with code and choice in hardware. There are tens of thousands of people in the US alone using AMB transponders. I dont' think this is a "niche" of a market as one would think. AMB just keeps buying the smaller companies out to avoid competition. Having a competitive system would not be hard to build but may be hard to have everybody implement. As I said earlier, there are already transponders that that can use the AMB system. AMB knows this and continually provides "updates" to keep them from grabbing part of their market. At this point I don't know how anybody can reverse AMB's monopoly.
Sorry if I'm overly cynical.
The problem with an open source design is that a) the software system has to WORK. Track/group organizers can't be futzing around with hobby level software. Yes of course there is some absolutely great open source software but something this niche ain't gonna attract those developers, and software needs constant maintenance, which is a huge problem with open source if you don't have huge market share / momentum. Of course I don't know how well (or not) the AMB software works.
Second, even ignoring those problems, someone has to build compatible transponders. In an open source, patent free world, who is going to take that on if they think the field is wide open to any other manufacturer to come along? For very large markets this is fine, but for the limited number of sales that this market has, plus the problem of having to displace AMB, I just don't see it happening.
I do see that the westhold transponder is $170 vs $500 for the AMB. Probably $10 BOM and $40 to package it, so right there you can witness the power of a monopoly. I personally don't mind paying for quality products, but that is just gouging. The subscription on top of that, is frustrating.
What might work, assuming the AMB design is not patent encumbered, is an open source hardware design. You could buy a premade board on sparkfun or wherever. Then it's up to the individual racer if they want to DIY. I could see that the X2 might have some kind of digital signature such that it doesn't work when the sub is "expired", but to the extent that AMB still supports legacy non-authenticated transponders, a DIY hardware design might be feasible.
Maybe I'm wrong on how hard it is to build a transponder. ie, if very precise antenna or other such things are required, that are beyond DIY capability. I mean, it is millisecond timing.
And anyway, my frustration is purely theoretical. I only have old style, non-subscription transponders. I know I need another one this year so I bought it now just in case.
I do know RC tracks are starting to use another system for timing and scoring with transponders since they got fed up paying thousands of dollars for the licensing rights to use it.
One could try to corner the SCCA market but they would have to convince the tracks to use a different system altogether and then convince the racers to buy new transponders. That would prove tough to achieve which of course AMB knows. Then that company would have to keep from selling out to AMB
I hope nobody actually thinks we need to do away with transponders. I think we are all just frustrated with AMB price gouging because we currently have no other vender to choose from. Charging $40+ to reset a used transponder registration on their website? WTF!
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
So, can someone answer a question for me? Does this 'subscription' only allow access to the online data/results as posted at mylaps.com or does it go further?
Our vintage group uses AMB (obviously, since it seems everyone does), but I don't believe they post the results to mylaps.. Since the transponder is only a coded RF signal, does it REQUIRE an active subscription to PICKUP at a track? Does the timing/software at the track somehow interface with mylaps?
Luckily I own an older version, so I don't *think* I need a subscription. I do remember trying to get my name registered for it when I bought it from a friend. I gave up when the 'new and improved' mylaps site came out.
If the 'subscription' is to access the online results, do the 'new' units still trigger the timing units at the track if you don't want/need to access the online results? Does SCCA (or other groups) require an active subscription to register for an event? I have no desire to pay any more for something I already own...
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
When I said open source, I was really looking at the hardware. With proper definition, one could open source the software too, but obviously that's a different market demographic.
The Chinese can reverse engineer anything.
I believe one "benefit" of the AMB system is the unique number - but in actuality that's to make their software and website work globally. You could program your open source unit via USB with just about any unique identifier. And there's really no need to publish that stuff to their website. The club could produce those timing charts or post the raw data on their website for members to download.
Rick,
That is exactly what I wish we could do. Since I have my own data aq I don't need to get info from AMBs website. So why can't there be a "Clubman" version that works like the old style to ping your number to T&S for the club's own info? Heck, if it were USB programmable, your "ping" identifier could be your name,birthdate,or car&number,right?
The story I got was that AMB will be expanding upon capabilities of the new technology in the new transponders to get into the Data Ac game. There is a GPS module now inside so AMB will not only be able to give you just your times, but sector splits as well. Then supposedly later on there will be an OBD2 hookup for engine/powertrain data as well. There may be more, but that was the idea I got.
I don't need all that schmutz, and I definitely don't need another subscription or bill to pay for, so I just bought the old style.
So if AMB is looking to get into data acquisition, why can't Mychron build a transponder lead for their systems? It could speak with timing and scoring, but also provide official timing backups on the data system should there be a breakdown elsewhere. It's a best of both worlds I reckon.
For anybody who is collecting data, the AMB setup is simply there for timing and scoring. Mychron should be able to produce some sort of product in this area, and they are reputable and reliable people to deal with.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
This is the kind of thing that could really add value. If they were able to push some sort of standardized interface that all of the data companies could integrate then you could get real timing and scoring in the car in real time. I know that everyone will still have their GPS for splits, but real time T&S could be nice.
Adding another box/display to the dash is a non-starter for most formula cars. There just isn't enough room.
Just checked Hoerr and Pegasus. The price on the 260 is $489/499. I haven't bought a transponder in 8 years, but I remember the cost being significantly less than that. Guess you're gonna pay $500 regardless to buy a new transponder and use it for a few years.
If/when I sell my current car, looks like it will be minus the transponder......
By the way, there's a company in Oz called Transponder Services that fixes transponders for a very reasonable fee. Last year mine came off and was run over by multiple cars. The case was destroyed, LED broken, and a couple of the wires worn through. It was repaired with a used case for $88 and that included return shipping! His work is guaranteed, and it took about two weeks from when I mailed it off to when I got it back. Haven't had a chance to use it yet.
His main business is replacing the batteries.
I just spent about 20 minutes browsing the AMB website, and there's never a mention of patents. There's also no patent information pressed into the transponder case. Makes me wonder if they never filed for any. If you patent something, you get protection, but tell the wold how it's done, and it's easy to engineer around a lot of patents. Could be they handle the design as a trade secret and buy up the competition, or verify the number in their track software and refuse to score something that doesn't have a valid number from them.
Last edited by Rick Kirchner; 03.12.15 at 10:42 AM.
It's not a question of good vs. bad, it's a question of how many workers they can get in T&S.
I actually replaced the batteries in one of my AMB my transponders before. It took some work, but the cost was minimal at around $10. The batteries lasted 7 days on a charge and their lifetime was about two times that of the batteries that came in the unit. Pretty sad really.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
I don't think this is true. Look at total car count nationwide - SCCA by itself has a BIG chunk of the total racing market. How many of the roundy-rounds even use transponders?
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
The dirt tracks here in NJ and PA use the AMBs
PowrI in the Midwest
Midgets and 600cc Micros use them in the PowrI Racing series.
Back in the day you could leave the track for the day and still not know where you qualified. Now you know in real time where you stand. Even though I'm annoyed by Race Monitor changing the game, the fact that I can get a cars time as it crosses the timing loop from anywhere I have a cell connection is amazing.
Not having transponders would be bad.
I think that a lot of them do. From looking through Race Monitor on the weekend, the SCCA represents a tiny percentage of people using transponders.
How many people run marathons / triathalons / bicycle races / etc? Don't think AMB is just into motorsports.
Gary Tholl
#24 BlurredVisionRacing
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