FV at SummitPoint

[DogDoc]

Why is it that nobody races in regional FV races at Summit Point WDCR?
Majors ..yes had a decent turn out but zip at regionals for the past few years.

[BLS]

I ran a regional race at Summit Point last year. I was the only FV. In a "wings and things" grouping which means any formula car or sports racer. That keeps the FV cars away. My understanding is the WDC region did not put much emphasis on the formula car crowd for some time. I think they are trying to make amends for this. (it is just what I have picked up, WDC might have a different official view)

I also did the Summit drivers school last year in March, the rain/snow/sleet/cold school.

I found the WDC region to run a great weekend, school, regional, and majors race. Hopefully they can get a better grouping in the future than the "wings and things" grouping, but they are not the only region that does this. My Region, CCR, does this at Charlotte, Atlanta has done this at RA, other as well. So, low car counts end up reducing the car counts further.

I will say that at both the Summit and Charlotte regionals, the "fast" cars played nice and respectful.

[Derek Holmes]

The formula groups have been combined due to low car counts. It was difficult to have seperate run groups if only a few cars showed. Not that many FV's have showed up but when they have we all played well together. If more FV, F5 and F6 cars showed on a regular basis that would open a conversation for a seperate run group. There is going to be a special open wheel event at Summit in August. The event will be part of the Duffus series and FV will have a run goup without any faster winged cars.

[nhJohn]

ATTENTION RACE ORGANIZERS !!!!
So you had one weekend where a particular class had a low car count. So you decided that it would be a good idea to combine cars into one class to ... ?

• save time?
• end the day earlier?
• appease the other racers who complained?
• What are you now doing for that open race slot you just created?

By combining all "wings & things" into one group, all you have done is to ensure that future events will continue to have low car counts for that class.


soapbox off
John

[Wayne Armbrust]

[QUOTE=nhJohn;464673]ATTENTION RACE ORGANIZERS !!!!
So you had one weekend where a particular class had a low car count. So you decided that it would be a good idea to combine cars into one class to ... ?

It wasn't just one weekend.

The low car count was allowed to continue for at least three seasons before the change was made. Many of the numerous classes only had one or two cars (no competition) and the FV count was down to four or five cars at each weekend the season before the change. Hopes were the low counts would recover and the drivers would come back to the groups. That never happened and the low participation groups were taking away track time from the other well subscribed class groups.

The only reasonable alternative was to combine the open wheel / sports racer group. In the 2014 season we did manage to break the combined session into two groups for the October event, I think we still only had three FV cars at that event along side 23 or so FF/CF cars.

W

[DogDoc]

But,but,but FV used to be a very popular class at Summit Point and it all seemed to go away in a season or two. FV not popular? Doesn't seem likely other surrounding regions have a very good turn out generally. I wish more Vees would come to regionals at Summit. My impression is that when it was first discussed to combine FV with FF that the FV drivers did not feel that was a safe grouping, due to closing speeds etc. The next season FV counts seemed to decline. I know that other regions have that grouping. FV with FA might be a little hairy for both classes.

[Wayne Armbrust]

The current situation at Summit Point is a long and torrid story that has developed over the last 10 years or so. The answer is not as simple as concern with overtake speeds between FA and FV, the true story lies somewhere in the middle. There was also an unfortunately bad political move made about 8 or 9 years ago that left bad feelings all around that have never seemed to recover.

With virtually no FAs running in the regional races over the last three seasons and only two or three FVs in a group with a total group count that varies between 9 to 12 on a two mile track closing speeds become less of an issue. The last season or two show the Wings & Things session with No FAs, 1 or 2 FVs, 2 sometimes 3 FCs, a couple of FEs, maybe 2 P1s and sometimes a P2, with 5 or maybe 6 FF/CFs. with an average total of 10 or so W&T cars per event it is hard for the Region to justify splitting them out into two groups of 5 or 6 cars when the overall weekend participation runs somewhere around 170 to 180 cars split into 8 or 9 race groups.

Even if the FVs or FF/CF averaged 10 to 12 per event it would be difficult to justify a race group of 5 cars for the bigger formula & sports racer cars.

Wish there was time and space to break out the groups, but it is just not practical under the circumstance.

[gbmetcalf]

I hope this is different for the Majors. A grouping like this would suck.

JMHO
G.

[Mason66]

No the majors separate the classes similar to almost every other region in the country.
FF, FV, F5/600.
Much safer grouping, in my opinion.

[gbmetcalf]

Works for me.
G.

[nhJohn]

Short box or Long Box?
Which ratio for 3rd gear is preferred?

John

[butch deer]

I don't know the story about Summitt Point but since I have gone back to running a FST car at regionals for the last 10 years or so I have seem a huge decline in FV entries. On several weekends the firsts have had there own run group by default because no FV's show up. The only way to have a decent run group is to bring entries to an event. When we started the Formula First series we backpack our races with the now defunct(because of lack of entries) East/West FF-CFF series with bot6h organizers hoping to bring enough cars to a weekend to oversubscribe our run group and force the organizers to split the group in two FV/FST and FF/CFF or turn away entrants. It occasionally worked. Times have changed in the SCCA and the only way I see for formula cars to have a good run group is for the competitors in a region to get together and agree to attend the same events and negotiate a run group with the region based on bringing a reasonable # of cars to the event. Just hoping more cars will randomly show up next race gets you in the formula everything group.

[Jim Kleinklaus]

I ran four weekends at Summit in 2013 and the wings and things were fine. Ed Impink and another driver came out, but only them. I ran twice in 14, totaling my vee and going to the hospital, then buying Pastore's purple citation and getting to the season end race, coming in 2nd to Ray Quall. I'll be there April10-12 for MARRS 1--come out and play!!

[G.B.]

Jim,
That was a nasty accident, I am very pleased to hear that you are back racing and in the Purple Citation. I believe this car still holds the lap record at Gingerman short circuit in the hands of Tom Mayerhoefer.
Guy.

[LukeTesterman]

I've heard a mix of reasons for the decline in the region, but from what I can tell, it was a confluence of circumstances (some unfortunate). There are veteran drivers retiring, aspiring drivers moving up to faster classes or using up their resources to enter National/Majors events, one didn't return after their 2013 runoffs incident and of course the economy. This is probably nothing new to everyone here. It's the people that hold this class together and I've been very lucky to receive so much help and encouragement from everyone I've met. Credit to Chris Elwell, the Maloney family-Hughie,Jack,John, and Dave Thompson, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

As a Summit Point local and novice last year, I was very reluctant this Spring to buy a Vee because of the lack of competition. Since I had such a fun first season, and the sense of camaraderie within the community, I decided to buy one. (Caracal-D, Thanks to Steve Smith!)

I had also completed the 2014 March driver's school here with Barry in the snow and sleet. It was a little unnerving to run in Wings and Things with a bunch of students who have 2-3 times the power and less grip in the corners, freezing, and next to no visibility. I think I was the only one who kept all 4 on the track and didn't spin. I was almost taken out so many times by the driver's still learning the limit (SRFs mostly). It was one of the more challenging things I've ever done, and I was hooked. I also got to witness Jim rolling into the tires and landing upside down during my first race ever. Very glad he made a quick recovery and comeback!

During MARRS, the W&T drivers all got along fairly well out there when it came to lapped traffic. It was mostly because of me staring in the mirrors more than I would prefer and staying predictable. During the DUFFUS race at MARRS9-Formula Fest, one of my mirrors wouldn't stay in place, and I nearly turned into a passing FF. I can think of a handful of very close calls though because of the mixed class. I have some GoPro video if anyone wants me to edit something together to show what it's like.

I will say though, the WDC SCCA staff were very sympathetic when they noticed I was a FV novice going into W&T. They may be the same workers who were around to see MARRS FV during its heyday? I find myself now looking toward Majors events and the FV Challenge Cup Series just for better class competition. I would love to see regional FV make a comeback at Summit Point. Come on, we have enough drivers in the area to do it....Your wallets might thank you!

[BLS]

The Summit Point Majors currently has 17 FV's entered, and I suspect there will be at least 4 more.

I'm entered, but finishing the car is going to be close.

[Amon]

Barry,

Are you going to make it to the Mid-Ohio Majors the end of May?

Mark

[BLS]

Hello Mark,

Not likely although I would like to come. I will be traveling out of the country in May and it is uncertain what the date will be and when I will return. But, if back in time, and not too much car prep required I might make the trip. If I can get to Summit and the car works OK will probably be a determining factor as well.

How are you doing? Cars ready?

Barry

[Amon]

Barry,


I'm having my tranny rebuilt and should have it back soon! Brian and I pulled the
motor last night so we'll be ready to install the rebuilt soon. As far as Brian's car,
he's updating the bodywork but should be able to make the M-O Majors in time.

Good luck at Summit!

Mark

[BLS]

Mark,

Sounds like you don't have too much to do...

I cut the front of the car off and lengthened it a couple inches to get some more legroom. Got tired of the leg cramps Hope it will help...

I also redesigned the steering and braking while I was at it. The steering partly to get rid of the steering column between the brake and clutch pedal. With my big feet there was no way to use my left foot to brake with, and I always liked that back in the "old days". In order to preserve my extra two inches I had to get the tierods under and between the two beam tubes. This required not using the vertical tube between the bottom and top of the chassis, so the whole assembly was redesigned. Hopefully it will not all fall apart on the track. I moved the masters up to the front and have built a new pedal assembly.

Early picture of the trial fitting once I got everything made - pedal assembly not in just yet and the floorpan not finished - all done now.

I am trying to take the rest of this week and next off to finish everything. Still have some temporary bodywork to do...

A couple pics, the front is an early one and then the pedal assembly. All I have is a cheap drill press, hacksaw, cheap table saw with cutoff blade, hand grinder, and my tig welder. So, it takes a while to fab this stuff. I'm really slow.

[Amon]

Barry,

Wow, you've been busy this off season! Our garage was so cold that I didn't venture
into it until the weather broke a month ago. You've done alot of re-engineering that
should give you more leg room and make yourself more comfortable in the car. Post
some final photo's once you finish the work. Looks good!

Mark

[BLS]

Mark,

It doesn't get quite as cold down here

My garage is not heated. However, I use a propane heater to knock the chill off on the worst days. Due to work I did not get started until the end of Jan. And it has taken me about 5 times as long as I thought. It turned out to be a bit more work than I thought it would be. I've basically missed the SE region majors. I just hope it helps and mostly that it doesn't hurt...

Barry

[butch deer]

Mark,





Sounds like you don't have too much to do...

I cut the front of the car off and lengthened it a couple inches to get some more legroom. Got tired of the leg cramps Hope it will help...

I also redesigned the steering and braking while I was at it. The steering partly to get rid of the steering column between the brake and clutch pedal. With my big feet there was no way to use my left foot to brake with, and I always liked that back in the "old days". In order to preserve my extra two inches I had to get the tierods under and between the two beam tubes. This required not using the vertical tube between the bottom and top of the chassis, so the whole assembly was redesigned. Hopefully it will not all fall apart on the track. I moved the masters up to the front and have built a new pedal assembly.

Early picture of the trial fitting once I got everything made - pedal assembly not in just yet and the floorpan not finished - all done now.

I am trying to take the rest of this week and next off to finish everything. Still have some temporary bodywork to do...

A couple pics, the front is an early one and then the pedal assembly. All I have is a cheap drill press, hacksaw, cheap table saw with cutoff blade, hand grinder, and my tig welder. So, it takes a while to fab this stuff. I'm really slow.

How are you keeping the wheelbase legal?

[BLS]

Butch,

The Citation is at the minimum, 81.5. I added 1&7/8.

The bottom is extended further out, so it might look like I did more than that, but the wheelbase only changed the 1&7/8. Oh, and I carefully measured the original and verified it with Lathrop.

I read the spec many times. Even the gearbox is at max in front of the beam, 7&7/8 inches, just under the 8" max without requiring a big plate in front...


Barry

[BLS]

Since this thread has veered off the topic a bit, I'll keep the tradition.

The good news is the car is coming along and everything is fitting as planned

The bad news is, no way I can finish to get to Summit. A bunch of very late nights but no go. Just not enough time to complete everything, get the car set up, and cobble some temporary body work together.

The really good news - I sat in the car for the first time with the new length extension to try it out. I've refrained from doing so until about midnight tonight, for fear that all this work and the missed races would be for little gain. The wheelbase came out almost exactly where I had it figured, I'm good with about 1/4 inch under the max Most important - Wow, it really makes a big difference. My knee's are no longer stuffed up into the steering roll hoop, I can easily use my left foot to brake with, my left leg will not constantly have to be held back off the clutch pedal, and my big size 14 feet have plenty of room. Hopefully it will just make it easier to drive the car.

A lot of little things to do, plus finish putting the rest of the car together. New bodywork to create. I plan to start that in the morning. VIR regional May 9/10 maybe, if I can hold off on some Asian travel.

Pictures showing the revised front. Still have the original bell crank steering pads on the beam, just in case. I'll remove them when I'm certain the new steering system works properly. Everything up front has changed....

Headon View:



From the backside:


The revised plumbing and transponder mount: