Committee Car II

[rgu]

Thank you Greg it was a huge word choice issue. The car will be called something else in the future. I'll leave speculating on the content of small formula cars to yet another venue because I think people really want to discuss the concept.

But first we have got to change the name of the Committee to an "informal group of FST lovers" Thus the new car can be called the IGOFL car.

[Stirling 306]

My two cents. Keeping in mind I just completed my first season competing in FST I have a couple comments. First, $4000 for a competitive FST engine in my opinion is a bit light, however not too far off. As far as rebuilds not sure I'll keep you posted. Bottom line, the formula is perfect: disc brakes, alloy wheels, fat tires and a strong chassis. Second, why worry about going national? Keep it as it is, our series is sponsored nationally we get contingencies and the community is second to none.
The best part of this class, after the community, camaraderie etc., IS the formula. This is a great class to get a racing career started as well as sticking around and enjoying great racing every weekend. It costs money to go fast, if you're looking for incredible speed affordably, forget it stick to video games, otherwise buy a formula ford and get on with it. FST is what it is, a fun and affordable way to go fast and race. Stop trying to change it and continue to look for the mythical, affordable, 700bhp, all carbon fiber open wheel racecar. Racing in any form is expensive. What Robert, Bill and others are trying to accomplish is awesome. Now that the formula is solid I see the benefit with the "committee" sorry "IGOFL" car.

[jim murphy]

My two cents. Keeping in mind I just completed my first season competing in FST I have a couple comments. First, $4000 for a competitive FST engine in my opinion is a bit light, however not too far off. As far as rebuilds not sure I'll keep you posted. Bottom line, the formula is perfect: disc brakes, alloy wheels, fat tires and a strong chassis. Second, why worry about going national? Keep it as it is, our series is sponsored nationally we get contingencies and the community is second to none.
The best part of this class, after the community, camaraderie etc., IS the formula. This is a great class to get a racing career started as well as sticking around and enjoying great racing every weekend. It costs money to go fast, if you're looking for incredible speed affordably, forget it stick to video games, otherwise buy a formula ford and get on with it. FST is what it is, a fun and affordable way to go fast and race. Stop trying to change it and continue to look for the mythical, affordable, 700bhp, all carbon fiber open wheel racecar. Racing in any form is expensive. What Robert, Bill and others are trying to accomplish is awesome. Now that the formula is solid I see the benefit with the "committee" sorry "IGOFL" car.

Did not mention F5/6 which is half the cost of FF but same lap times.

[jim murphy]

Jim, the beauty (in my mind) of the current FST engine with the restrictor is the cost factor. With the 1600cc displacement and the restrictor size, you can do all sorts of fancy engine head/manifold development and get, nothing appreciable. This keeps the cost down and the cars competitive. Once you try to increase the power you start getting price creep. As noted, a complete, new engine can be built for under $4k and that engine will easily last a full season if not longer.

You could quite easily get another 25-30hp and put the speed of the cars in the range of FF, but then you will have to have better breathing which will change the nature of the engine development wise ($$$).

I wish I could build a new engine with forged, counter weighted crank, forged rods, etc, with off the shelf parts at low cost for my FV.

But what about carburation and gearing that I mentioned above?

[problemchild]

Did not mention F5/6 which is half the cost of FF but same lap times.

Why would he? This is about FST. Comparing to other classes is irrelevant, not to mention rude.

Restricted classes are "restricted" classes ..... which means performance is restricted. If you want to race a FF then race one, but your continual comparing that restricted performance to the performance of your restricted class is hurting your promotional activities much more than helping.

[Jim Nash]

Jim M,
You seem adamant about getting FST cars to lap as fast as FF’s and F500’s and I am not really sure why this is. Making the up-grades to get a FST as fast as a FF would bring on a cascade of unintended mechanical problems. Not to mention the need to drop the hard tire rule to get there. Which, by the way, right away makes FST less expensive to run than F500s.

The more-than-a-few changes that would need to make this happen would all have to go through the CRB (and participants). The likelihood of the changes getting approved is nil. Compare your suggestions for FST rule changes to getting a simple 6” of extra wheelbase for F500. As important as that one thing could be to growing F500, it’s a no-go.

I am as open as the next guy to making improvements to the class but your suggestions go to an extreme that it’s no longer the class many of us have been championing for years. I’ll grant you we have not been as successful as we would like, but, at the risk of speaking for the collective group, we’re not going to toss it all aside and support speeding the cars up to the degree you suggest.

As for the primary topic of this thread, I can’t wait to see what Robert is up to!

Jim

[jim murphy]

This will be my last post as I have said many times before and no one seems to be really reading what I am trying to get across. I like FST's and want them to be considered BY OUTSIDERS as an equivalent alternative to F5/6's for the speed and money. Get the speed up just enough to get close and THE OUTSIDERS will start considering your class because presently they are not for the most part. I am told that carburation and gearing is all that is needed to get your cars there. There is a secondary safety benefit of reduced speed differentials in the race groups as well.

Jim
Been messing with the F4/5/6's since 1982 and have been listening to outsiders talk about which entry level formula class to choose during all that time.

[Garry Sharp]

In my opinion, the reasons behind the fact that FST has not taken off as many of us thought it would has nothing to do with that it is not fast enough. For many racers and prospective racers out there, this class is plenty fast enough whether they know it or not. When FST became an official SCCA class, I thought there would be 10 FV to FST conversions at Road Atlanta in the FIRST YEAR-that's how much sense I thought it made. If anybody is on the fence about converting, I think my FST turned out pretty good, I don't have much money, this was my first race car, and I am old.

I just realized that this post has nothing to do with the original topic, but since I typed it out I will send it anyway.

Garry

[BLS]

But what about carburation and gearing that I mentioned above?

Since you referenced my comment I will answer. It was in the comment itself.

The hp of the car dictates the gearing to a large degree. FV can use a short or longbox, while the FST cars are longbox only, to keep the cost down. I don't believe there are many, if any, tracks that have the FST cars maxed out on RPM for an appreciable length of time, so a higher gear is not going to help without more HP. More gears or a gearbox with changeable ratio's (like FF) raises the cost and complexity. If we all have the same gear what difference does it make?

The problem with carburation (increase) is you will then have to open up the restrictor. The restrictor restricts the flowrate, oddly enough, and this keeps the cost of the engine down. As I mentioned earlier, fancy head and manifold porting/development pay a smaller dividend in this case which helps hold down the price.

Low cost, high performance, competitive racing is the result. If you want to go faster, and spend more money, there are already classes for that. Could a FST go faster and be competitive with FF? Certainly. But not at the current cost. Perhaps it can be done without increasing the cost to FF levels, but that is hard to know in advance, with unintended consequences.

I get what you are saying, you believe, based upon comments of prospective racers, that a faster FST would attract more drivers. Perhaps you are correct. Personally I think those drivers either do not understand the cost of speed, or they will end up elsewhere anyway.

I don't have a FST. I have a FV. But, I like the FST class and think it is "near" perfect as a low price open wheel class. YMMV

[aerobullet]

Agree completely with the previous post. The FST formula is "near perfect" as is. It took me awhile to get mine going trying to figure out the motor dry sump/cooling configuration but finally have it on the track now for a couple of weekends and it's a blast to drive. Here's what I like most:

1. Bigger tires, more power and better brakes mean more fun. Thanks to the tires it's more stable in the turns and this puts you in a better position (along with the extra power) running with the faster formulas by decreasing closing speeds and braking differentials.

2. Less maintenance. Who enjoys changing back and forth between the short and long box on FV's? It's a six hour job with two people! The disc brakes require very little attention and have a reliable solid feel. I bought my set of tires four years ago and they are still fine.

3. Less cost. No chasing trick parts like $1000 manifolds and $500 brake linings. The tires are much bigger but cost $100 less per set than FV and last for at least a whole season. Motors are at least $2000 less total cost than FV despite producing 40% more power.

4. Better looking cars. Absent the FV rule on fan shroud frontal area, with 13" more overall length and bigger tires, FST's just look "right" out there. Not too many FST's have fully taken advantage of this but they will over time and the cars will just look better and better with fully aerodynamic designs.

Of course if FST goes National the trick part syndrome will probably kick in so I'm in favor of leaving it the way it is for awhile until car numbers increase (they will) and the formula is refined a little more.

[Doug FST 5]

Since I've been involved with FST I've helped a number of drivers who are new to our sport to get their cars sorted and such. Without a doubt I've worked with many more new drivers in my 9 years of involvement with FST than I did in my 12 years in FV. Opinions will vary but from my perspective FST has been doing fine in this regard.

Doug FST 5

[WASP]

I am building a Solo car for Larry Metz right now. I am using a Wasp with updates to
accomodate a 120 plus hp Volks engine. The engine is a Veetech with The Weber
carb and uprates allowed in the F1st guidelines. Coil over adjustable front shocks and
aero additions. The car will run the 2015 season in the C Mod. class. Solo pits these cars against Formula Fords so it will be fun!

Steve Dunlap
Wasp Race Cars

[gbmetcalf]

Steve:
I can only imagine What it will be like. I love your cars and an still working out the kinks in my frame design for my FST. Got the front all hashed out, now for the area behind the roll bar.

G.

I am building a Solo car for Larry Metz right now. I am using a Wasp with updates to accomodate a 120 plus hp Volks engine. The engine is a Veetech with The Weber
carb and uprates allowed in the F1st guidelines. Coil over adjustable front shocks and
aero additions. The car will run the 2015 season in the C Mod. class. Solo pits these cars against Formula Fords so it will be fun!

Steve Dunlap
Wasp Race Cars

[Don Jones]

The Banshee has been around for a decade running a 110hp AC VW. I just picked one up and am very impressed with the build quality and the engineering that went into it. The only problem with the package is that it does not meet SCCA regulations. YET! AJ and I are working together to build a new SCCA compliant Banshee that can be run in FS.
Don't mean to hijack the thread so if anyone has any questions please pm me.

[provamo]

the Banshee has looked nice

at one point in time (last century, and maybe in europe) there was a move/proposal to have a F1600 class

[Clip6]

We are coming from karts to open wheel class. Since NOLA has this new track we are looking forward to choosing a car. FST does look doable for us.

[rave motorsports]

We would love to have you join the FST family. I think you will find it to be a close knit group that will help you along the way. It truly is an affordable racing alternative. We are just finishing up on our second Evolution and testing both cars this weekend at Hallett.
Please feel free to contact us with any questions.
Bill Gray. Nuveau Autosport
Rob Clark #37 Evolution
Jared Smith #55 Evolution

[Clip6]

Hey Bill. The Evo car looks very nice.
Thanks

[WASP]

Just recieved the dyno results from Chris Cox (Noble Engines)f or a solo car that I am doing for Larry Metz. It produced 122 hp with 1 two bbl carb. Very inexpensive for
the results obtained.