Reversing the engine in F600 brings up a concern and that is what is the additional cost to accomplish this in the most cost effective manner? Differences would include the reduction of heat shielding and so on.
Jim
Reversing the engine in F600 brings up a concern and that is what is the additional cost to accomplish this in the most cost effective manner? Differences would include the reduction of heat shielding and so on.
Jim
Even though I’m no longer involved in SCCA leadership I have still been keeping up with things and thus have been following this thread since Froggie started it. I've stayed out of the discussion because I can obviously make no guarantees what will happen, but it was pointed out that some people might be reluctant to pull the trigger on a new car given the uncertainty of the classing situation. Therefore:
= = = = =
Based on 20 years in various leadership roles within SCCA (including 2+ years with the National Office), I truly believe any discussion on the Majors Class Accord (aka - the Concorde Agreement) is moot since it will never happen. Obviously that’s only an assumption on my part, but it's based on extensive knowledge of how the SCCA governing structure works. I have no doubt the CRB can develop a proposal (and one that would have merit if we were starting with a clean sheet of paper), but even if it were to somehow pass the current BoD, it would be quickly overturned by the next BoD even before the proposed three-year moratorium ends. Too many oxen gored, too many existing members alienated.
I believe it’s much ado about nothing, but it certainly give folks something to fret about over the winter.
As always, YMMV...
Butch Kummer
2006, 2007, 2010 SARRC GTA Champion
Butch and i had a discussion about the 'concorde agreement' scenero not happening at the SEDIV annual meeting last weekend. But even i said way back in post #52 there was slight chance of it ever happening.
What i hoped the tread would accomplish is maybe some peace agreement between the two factions with a plan for the future of the class.
It was a fun winter thread for I have learned what some 2 cycle folks think of my ancestory. Stuff my parents must have forgotten to tell me. LOL
Given what goal?Originally Posted by jim murphy
Packaging? Safety? Cornering? High speed stability?
Depending upon what you are seeking the "optimum" wheel base could be quite different.
High speed stability because it has been over the years the comment most made about F5/6's when driven by outsiders for the very first time.
Packaging too.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Why is it every year this horse is brought back out of the barn. don't stop with just wheel base lets do the whole pony again , so we can alienate more people. here it is we need longer wheelbase, shocks, 13 inch wheels, engines turned around, (I don't think we did that one last year ) sway bars, and lets do wings. And all of this will only cost, a dollar two ninety eight and will make the class grow.
A top fuel dragster runs on a 300" wheelbase, so that ought to be give plenty of straight line stability. Cornering will suffer drastically though
1.5-1.6 : 1 range puts the cars in current INDY car range. That's clearly a design in compromise for high speed stability as well as some road course/street circuit stuff. That puts the wheelbase in the 85-86" range.
If that wheelbase makes the packaging and safety for the tall guys a problem, then how about something in the 88-90" range but increase the max width to 57-58". My concern is as the cars grow in size, the smaller ones may be obsoleted....think A-MAC in DSR.
While these discussions are interesting, all that it does is cause problems. NOTHING is happening to change the F500 rules. There have been well over 20 of the 4 stroke MC. powered cars built and we are building more right now and so are other people. So we do not want the rules to change either.
These forums are simply BS sessions. And a lot of the people posting are not even part of the class. So please do not worry, NOTHING is in the works to change the F500 rules.
On another note. Please remember that one of our first proposals was to create another and separate class and not be part of F500. The club did not want any new classes at that time.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
I bow to Mr. Novack.
Winter is over in Florida, time to just go back to racing.
I just noticed this - interesting comment. How would you propose changing to get the cars more centered into the "sweet spot"?
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
No more ideas for improving the class, it is what it is.
I still remember how I got ripped for putting the Rotax deal together. They said I was doing it to make money. Gee did that kill the class like most people said it would?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Most of the MC engine cars that have hit the track to date have been 2 cycle cars that have been modified for the MC engine installation.
True, but what do you mean?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
There have only been a very skant few MC powered cars that have been built as NEW construction. MC powered cars have brought very few NEW competitors. Those who are promoting MC power were previous participants in the class in snowmobile 2 cycle cars. To date, MC power has not 'grown' the class it has just divided existing competitors into two camps. MC & 2 cycle.
Could the 25k-35k be the problem with new chassis growth. Its claimed you can run with a 1500 ebay motor but you need a 23k-33k chassis to put it in that doesn't have shocks, fancy construction materials and runs on 10inch wheels.
I wouldn't say the fault of growth in the class is the fault of division between the two factions i thinks its more related to the cost of getting involved in the class. Yes MC power is more attractive to the uneducated because they cant tune to 2 stroke engine or clutch and allows for shifting.
The other issue is any newcomer that does there homework prior to buy is more than likely being turn off by the constant talk of rule changes and the arguments between the the factions.
There is not good marketing of the class to the next group and yes I am including the 600 challenge series. whos name is misleading when it comes to the comparing it to the F500 class in SCCA.
I certainly have to agree that the majority of the current F600 cars are conversions as opposed to new cars. However the majority of those conversions were completed by racers who USED to race in F500 or came to F600 because they liked the motors. So this really means that an additional 15 - 20 racers are now in F500 now because of the MC motors. That is a fact.
There also must be a large number of older F500 2 stroke powered cars sitting in garages and many of the will be converted.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Not growing - Huh? What do you call having all four of our F600's booked for the Roebling Road drivers school - all new drivers to this club. And I think Ryan Barth has booked both of their cars for a drivers school - if I heard correctly. Give it time and it will grow. The F600 Challenge Series has a mission statement and it is to bring in new drivers to F600 by lowering the costs to run each race. Apparently five NEW drivers ran the F600 Challenge series in 2014 - Ryan Barth, 2nd; Hunter Brayton, 4th; George Fox, 7th; Craig Laprade, 11th; and Brandon Reed, 15th (not sure that he is new to racing).
Come race the F600 Challenge Series and LOWER your weekend costs and we can rent you a F600, if you like, and use your winnings/tow fund to help pay for the rent.
Jim
Still love all the positive comments about F600 (including HUNDREDS heard at the PRI Show) after hearing nothing but negative comments for over THIRTY YEARS.
In my opinion you may want to investigate some things before talking. There's new drivers and has been since the MC motor has been introduced. Second, I dare you to find a NEW two stroke chassis that's competitive at the front of the field any cheaper than MC chassis sells for now. I say this because all of them with the exception of one accept the two stroke as well. I could go into costs between the two drivetrains but no one cares anymore because no one investigates buying a brand new two stroke drivetrain car anymore.
On the note of the "uneducated because they cant tune to 2 stroke engine or clutch and allows for shifting" remark, all I can say to that is you're talking about 98% of the class when saying that. You may want to watch what you say because whether they admit it or not, 98% of the two stroke drivers cant tune their motors nor their clutches properly. So yes, not having to deal with it makes it more appealing to go to the MC drivetrain.
I love this one "There is not good marketing of the class to the next group and yes I am including the 600 challenge series. who's name is misleading when it comes to the comparing it to the F500 class in SCCA." We are not being misleading. The mission statement is very clear and posted on every press release if you cared to read. Just in case you missed it here's a link. http://www.theformula600challenge.co...E-SERIES/61971
We don't hide the fact that we are promoting only the MC drivetrain cars. There's not been any interest expressed in the two stroke drivetrain for numerous reasons and way too many to talk about. If you want a straight up comparison between the MC drivetrain and the two stroke drivetrain then do one. Post it up so everyone can see the facts. What you'll find is that IF you use the SAME NEW CHASSIS to compare with they both come out about the same on the initial investment .The difference between the two, people like the MC drivetrain by a factor of over 5:1 or more.
Outsider looking in.... F600 all the way. Why ? Shifting !
Not to take anything away from the two stroke lovers. They have their passion and they're fast.
But, the sound of high revving engines With Shifting is just sweet music to my ears
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Well, they certainly sound better than the, uh, weedeaters...The difference between the two, people like the MC drivetrain by a factor of over 5:1 or more.
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