Spec Tire for FM?

[preston27]

Well here we go again.
SCCA needs our vote on a spec tire that according to Moses we don't even know what spec tire we will have to use. We had a spec tire back when we had a pro series and at that time it was the fastest tire for this car. THIS IS NOT THE CASE NOW its a 475 compound Goodyear tire that BTW is by far the slowest tire you can find for this car.
Oh and Competition Tire is closing its doors mid Feb for good. So we will have no support at the track.
We will have to buy (from the west coast) and mount the tires before we even leave our shop.
We will pay much more money for the tires (shipping).
These tires go way off after one heat cycle so you will need twice as many tires until they put the 6 tire rule on us.
We will be at least 3 seconds per lap slower and spend more money on tires with NO support at the track.
This is just a shady scam someone is back dooring to make money every time we buy a tire.
This is a club car we have no pro series. As a club car we have always had an open tire rule.
Why would we want this if we knew the whole story.
This is going to be the final nail for us as a SCCA national class but FM will still survive in Texas (Dallas) that's what the manufacture wants anyway just a "Nobodys going slower for more money now" BS regional stepping stone sales pitch for local karters that will not be here long anyway. Go run your 475 tires in Texas.
If it was the fastest tire with contingency (which is already out, with track side support)I would vote yes.
Lets do a spec tire that's slower, no contingency, no track side support, more expensive, with a company that's doesn't want club business as a required tire is like Nancy Pelosi saying "we have to pass a bill first before we know whats in it".
Robert Noell FM#27 soon to be P2#27.

[Dwayne Anderson]

You dont know what you are talking about they are not the the 475s and the last longer and are faster you should talk to Moses befor you post some that is not true. Dwayne

[preston27]

Oh no no no Sir. I spoke with Moses this morning before I posted this TRUTH. Do you know the tire? Moses said he didn't know what tire we would run. Everything I posted is true.
No track support from Goodyear they do not want club business anymore.
The tires will cost more and are slower.
If you know the tire then why doesn't Moses? Who did the testing if its faster? Are you part of this back door deal?

[Jnovak]

Delete

[preston27]

Thanks for the question Jay. Hoosier has a R35 compound that's fantastic. Plus great service at the track, contingency 2tires for each win (majors) so 2 wins gets 1set of tires. They are a better tire. They are at the race so I can get my tires at the track and not have to bring my own. BTW GoodYear gave the FM National Champion a check for $500 dollars I guess that's good it's below $600 saves the 1099 expense.

[MosesSmithRacing]

Dear FM27,

Please do not put words in my mouth. This vote was intended to hear from the competitors, so that I would not have to put words in their mouths. I would appreciate the same level of respect and courtesy.

Here are a few points to clarify our conversation this morning, and defend my position on SCCA and Formula Mazda. I am sure there was some level of mis-communication as it had to be hard to hear me as you consistently raised your voice to rant over my responses.

1) I did not tell you I didn't know which tires were being considered. I told you the intent of the vote is to see if competitors think a tire should be "spec"ed. "What tire" is irrelevant at this point. The goal is to make sure the playing field is even, and that the competition is left to the driver ability.

2) I am not sure what you are insinuating when you posted that “This is just a shady scam someone is back dooring to make money every time we buy a tire”. But to be clear, to my knowledge, the only people making money on the sale of a tire is the manufacturer, Their Dealers, and Distributors.

3) In regards to supporting Go-Karters, yes I support them the best I can. I also support new drivers with no karting back ground. I do this for a number of reasons.

a. In my opinion it is the best way to grow the club (SCCA), and the class(FM). We need fresh competitors to replace those that are hanging up their helmets. Some of these karters will only be in club racing for a few years, some will stay for many years, and some will even come back after their pro career. I see no negative to adding newbies to Club racing.

b. I enjoy watching young talent develop in club racing. I enjoy teaching, coaching, and passing on what I have learned both in and out of a racecar to newbies (Young and “Older”).

c. This is me giving back. I have had a lot of help to get to where I am now. My car racing career started in Formula Mazda. I drove for the “factory” back in the day when it was run and organized by the Rodriguez’. I owe a lot to them for “bump starting” my career. I also had a lot of help from some of the seasoned veterans in the class (R. Roland, D. Tomlin, D. Peterson, D. Weyland, C. McMurray…etc…). I hope one day that I can give back as much as they all gave me, but until then I will do my best to “Pay it forward”.

d. Again, I don’t only support “karters”. I only have a few karters join the FM family per year. But I am averaging 15 new SCCA members, and drivers per year.

e. I want this club (SCCA) and this class(FM) to grow Nationally not just locally. This is why we have really shifted gears to support the SCCA Majors program. In fact, Formula Mazda will be offering a contingency program for FM competitors this year (details to come).

As I have had to explain a few times, this car was intended to be Spec. In the beginning many things were not "spec-ed" primarily because there were no other choices, therefore there was no need to spec them. A number of items have gone to far, and it is time to tidy things up.

I know I can not make everyone happy with the decisions I have to make. This is a very hard position for me, because I regard all of my customers as my friends, and family. I do my best to protect the integrity of the car and its intent. As you mentioned before most of the decisions I make are supported by you and the majority. It is unfortunate that at times we all fall into the minority category.

That said, I hope our friendship remains as it has, and you understand that this is just business, and nothing personal. I always respect and listen to all FM owners comments, needs, and wants with open ears.

In the midst of your frustration, please remember that it is important that SCCA hears your vote, so that it can be considered when the CRB makes a ruling.

Moses

[Kazis31]

You tell them Moses.....

[preston27]

I realize this is a public forum and I will not let you publicly tell me not to put words in your mouth.
You told me you did not know what tire would be the spec tire. This is not true at all because you and Mike Anderson have already tested them at your track. Once in 30 degree weather and again in 100 degree weather. Mr. Anderson who posted above confirmed this via phone conversation earlier today. So you do know the tire Moses you just made the deliberate choice of not telling the truth.
Now I have said I am in favor of a spec tire as long as it's available.
How is GoodYear going to service us at the track if they are not going to be there?
Who will sell us tires on the east coast? (MSRPARTS?)
Moses just swallow your pride, call Hossier. They will be at the races, contingency is already in place.
You just won't make money selling and shipping tires to the east coast.
I will be ready for tear downs this year as I am sure your retaliation will be done after my race events.

[preston27]

Yep WOW this is a public forum and everything I have posted here is correct. Your just more popular so I'm sure the fallout will be in your favor.

[Dwayne Anderson]

#27 you were calm when you spoke to me on the phone. It would be nice if you did the same to Moses. Moses has answered most of your questions on the phone and the form. You will find out that most things will be just fine. If you owned the FM Parts business you then would have to make hard dissensions. Some would like it and Some would not. Dwayne

[preston27]

I am very calm it's easy to sound bitter with just words on a forum. Especially when people try to embarrass you in public as is this case. I'm just the wrong guy to make that kind of move on.
I really believe that when the Competition Board realizes this is an attempt to a one sorce no service tire formula then we will go with a spec tire it just won't be GoodYear it will be Hoosier.
I'm still calm ???? have a good night and it was my pleasure speaking with you today as my tone with you was the same with Moses.

[Kazis31]

Very Neutrally.
Moses has done a tremendous work with FM's and any other Mazda powered formulas as well(PFM's.FE's)
Parts, support and service wise.
In my personal experience very upfront ,honest and knowledgeable guy.
And at the end of the day he is in charge of business and has to think of it first as well.
I don't see hurting his business benefiting anyone from Mazda powered formula racers
community.
However as of unbiased opinion i also think Hoosier R35 can be good spec tire choice.
So let's just everyone act cool and let Moses vote on it within FM guys.

Two cent.

P.S.
Not once in my dealing with Moses has he acted or seemed to act sneaky or
dishonest,so it seams more like case of two characters miscommunicating.

[Johnny B]

Nothing but respect for Moses. Sounds like this #27 works for hoosier.

John

[mikey]

Moses has always been a great resource in my experience as well. I've never bought anything from him, but we've traded information, technical knowledge, etc on FE and PFM. He's never hesitated to pick up the phone and give generously of his time even when there wasn't necessarily a buck in it for him.
As Maris said, it isn't going to serve anyone to attack really anyone in the racing community that is either a supporter, business venture, or participant. There aren't enough of us to start chasing people away. It is no mystery why this sport struggles to survive.. there's nothing to be had from all the expenditures on the participant side except for the experience and the camaraderie. There's nothing to be had from the efforts on the commercial side (at the club level) except for the experience and the camaraderie and perhaps a modest living if you're lucky.

I don't know 27, but it is quite amusing to me what some people are willing to post in a public forum full of opportunity for misinterpretation or assumptive conclusions about their character or person. Resistance is futile - play nice within the community or be shunned for even attempting to divide it.

On the actual topic of spec tire or no spec tire, speak with your vote if given the opportunity. Personally I think it is a lose-lose situation for the participant, because with no spec, you're eventually forced into investing in the best performing tire anyway and with spec the price points aren't enough to even consider it an advantage if there miraculously becomes enough business for a tire manufacture to make a set of 4 for $50 less than when they were non-spec. This is America, let competition drive business as usual.

Cheers,
mikey

[kflyer]

IMO, if your going to vote on a spec tire you should know what that tire is before you vote. I ran Hoosiers and Goodyear's this season (before I got the PM) and the Hoosiers were faster and lasted longer. (They don't leak like Goodyears do either)

-Kevin

[kflyer]

I should add that Moses has always treated me fair. No complaints at all.

[Darryl Wills]

I am adamantly opposed to a spec tire because I see NO reason for it.

I enjoy the option of trying different tire companies, different compounds and even different sizes to search for an advantage. Last time I checked this was what racing is all about.

For the class front runners, there are no savings on tire cost. New tires always perform better and we will set the cars up to aggressively use the tires in this manner.

A hard compound spec tire will not even the playing field among competitors but actually further distant the field from the more experienced to the less experienced. The lack of grip gives the experienced driver a bigger advantage because of control and setup knowledge.

I do know that there will be an evaluation test to determine the spec tire supplier. My understanding that this is written into the SCCA by laws to prevent any back door dealings on awarding the spec tire contract..Soooo the spec tire could be a GY, Hoosier, Avon, Cooper or ?????

In addition, I would prefer to see proposed changes that would actually lower our lap times and not increase them..I bought a FM ten years ago because a FM out ran all of the FCs at Texas World Speedway...A lot of performance for little dollars.

[marshall9]

I am thinking of a FM as an addition to my madness. I have known Moses for 15 years and he has always been straight with me. Lately, it seems that he has been able to keep the standard FM alive as a viable SCCA National class. Spec class, spec tire, FE. Open class, spec tire, FF. Spec car, open tire, FM........

[weedline]

After reading this thread I can see both sides of the debate.

In our particular case, we have run Goodyear tires on our FM for 7 years and recently changed to Hoosier about 6 months ago. Our decision was based on the dwindling support from Goodyear at many races we attended. They left us stranded on more than a couple weekends in Florida.
We have been running the R35 Hoosier and track times are similar to the times running Goodyear. Wear was also similar.
We have voted against a spec tire because the proposal lacked any information regarding which tire would be the spec tire.
Once you take the tire decision making process away from the participant you will be stuck paying whatever price they want ,and your track support will be on their terms and not yours.

I have no problem with rules controlling compounds, but let the participant choose which manufacturer they want to do business with.
Forcing people into a bad business relationship will do nothing to improve the class. The level of service from each distributor varies too much from region to region for a one size fits all solution.

[sdrdb9]

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo..._hpTrnsprtr_17

[preston27]

Please let's hear from people who actually own or drive the car. This isn't about Moses and how he treats people and if it was I would have nothing but positive things to say about him and his intentions.
Vote on a tire you know nothing about and neither does the manufacturer wanting you to vote his way. This is just a very bad decision. Pick a manufacturer to supply tires that are shipped to you before the race. You mount them yourself after paying more for them and go slower. Then if it rains or you need to change a tire or have any problem your done. No tire company at the track is going to help us if they are busy.
I like beating the slow FA , FC, FE.
I love it when a faster tire comes along.
I like being able to run harder or softer compounds depending on temps it's more safe.
I love all the private messages supporting me. Thank you very much for your support I just wish you would all post them here.
Ya know I'll go with what ever my fellow competitors want and keep my mouth shut but EVERY FM driver I have personally spoken with via phone or email wants the tire rule unchanged. So let's hear from the actual drivers not their dads or race shop owners.
So if you actually RACE the FM yourself let's settle this here.
I'm not upset or bitter you sensitive fellow forum guys but the drivers need to speak up not the onlookers.
We will no longer go faster for less money anymore if this happens.

[Mike42]

This is a Spec Class it should Have a Spec Tire

From club racing all the way up to the top levels of pro racing there are spec tires!
When we raced this car in the Pro Series in 2003 and prior it was on a Spec Tire, In the Formula Car Challenge this car is on a Spec Tire.

The fact of the matter is that it Does lower costs because I don't have an unlimited budget to go try all of the available tires that fit this car. Spend countless hours developing setups for each of those tires to find out what works best or what is fastest. Track time, Tires, Wearing out the Car all cost money, and for What! Thats What You Call Go Faster For Less Money?!?!? Give Me A Break!

During the 2014 season, The only thing I was able to do was Risk one race at Buttonwillow to try a set of Hoosiers. I only had 1 Qualifying and 1 Race on the tires to decide, and they were Total Crap anyway! So I went back to the Goodyears. My Point is that to Properly test the tires and not risk a race would be to spend a day at the track testing the tires and developing the car and setup. That $h!t cost A Lot of Money! And Time!

Spec a tire and stop Effing around with all this compound, size, brand BS

[ryanracing]

Am I missing something? Wasn't the question in Fastrack asking if we were in favor of A spec tire? I would think if a spec tire was of interest to the FM drivers, THAN, the next step would be to decide on which one. I wonder if the CRB can limit votes to only FM drivers? I'm all for it IF we pick a tire that's not crazy expensive and can be expected to last a full Majors weekend under normal conditions. One of the things keeping me from doing more races is the tire costs.
Sam Ryan FM #70

[Darryl Wills]

"Hoosier's are crap"...Those are fighting words.
Mike, We need to settle this Texas style. You on Goodyears and me on Hoosiers...Ten laps, ten beers(we always include beer)..first one to finish ten laps and all ten beers wins. Debate over which tire is best will finally be resolved by a purely scientific method...beyond contestation...

[preston27]

I'm with Wills that's a great idea lets race for it. I'm in Hoosier vs Goodyear winner is the spec tire.

[Darryl Wills]

This is not a Hoosier vs GY debate...Even if a Hoosier is picked as the spec tire, I still will not be happy about the decision.
Learning how to test and develop a race car is a necessary skill that aspiring drivers need to acquire. The only true developments we have had with the FM in the past 5 years has been the advancement in the tires. When the GY 255 came out at the 2011 RunOffs, we ran them in a qualifier and picked no time. We analyzed the data, made adjustments and then dropped over a second in the next session...Experience from testing and developing was the key. Every driver should know how to do this to be successful.
BTW, the only formula car class with a spec tire is FE and that is a booming success.

I will close with a comment on tire cost. I won 21 National events on the GY 255 tire. I only used 5 tires for two races each weekend. I would have the tires flipped and run one new rear tire on Sunday. All of the track records I set that year were on Sunday with the used tires.

[Mike42]

Hey Darryl,
We Just Did That in October

[Darryl Wills]

You are mean person

[Darryl Wills]

But a worthy Champion

[Mike42]

HAHA, Love Ya Buddy!

We have have some Awesome Battles over the years!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DisYEQFkm90

[glenn cooper]

"Contestation" no doubt from the "W" book of grammar!

;O)

You know I love ALL you Rotards!

[Darryl Wills]

Actually,
From the movie "Knight Tales"...Just love the word

[sdrdb9]

don't lose your sense of humor over this spec tire stuff. I thought the formula car in snow video was cool, and it reminded me of my days travelling to work in Canada.

BTW I already voted no on the spec tire...

a) Not going to vote yes on something that's yet to be defined (aka The Nancy Doctrine)
b) No fun factor from figuring out various tire options and effects
c) If a 475 GY was to be selected, forget about competing with the FEs etc.

regards, Stuart

[Bruce Lawrence]

A spec tire no matter what it is has never saved money and never will until the AMOUNT of tires is limited per weekend..Thats a FACT.Big budget guys will always be able to take advantage of several sets of tires getting the optimum from them..Any tire is better when fresh.Big budget guys will always use several sets on double race weekends wether they last all weekend or not..SIMPLE AS THAT..

I have spent all morning confirming some of the information that has been posted..
THESE ARE FACTS
Competition Tire South,East and West will be no longer in business after febuary..these are the goodyear tire dealers that have supported all of the east coast for as long as I have been involved in FM which has been around 17 years.
Goodyear was trying force all the all the dealers to sell tires at a certain price and at that time all the dealers were standing together to tell Goodyear Corp. NO.
Later it has been found out that Goodyear Corp has done some back door deals with Carrol Shelby Tire and another west coast supplier that I cant remember..Granted those dealers all goodyear contracts for NASCAR<DRAG RACING and Club racing..Leaving Competition Tire SOUTH, WEST and EAST out of business.
Anyone on the East coast Knows that Goodyear Corp.has let us down many times for tires for major races such as June Sprints and Runoffs...
All of my customers and myself have used only Goodyear tires for the last 15 years so this is not a SHOT at Goodyear..And anyone knowing that has done business with any Competiton Tire Company their service has been nothing but the best,one of the reason why I have stayed loyal to them.And the other was that certain compounds they have were always fast..(475 have not been one of them)
I also know for a fact that the new west coast dealers have not set a infrastructure to support the East coast and to the best of my knowledge not anywhere.leaving us to purchase tires from after febuary from unknown sources at this time.That means extra shipping and no service at race events,leaving you to mount and balance your own before you get there,providing you have enough sets of wheels(Big budget guys)
THESE ARE ONLY SOME OF REASONS WHY NO ONE SHOULD VOTE ON A SPEC TIRE UNLESS THAT TIRE HAS BEEN PROPOSED AND WHO IT WILL BE PURCHASED FROM AND WHAT KIND OF SUPPORT WILL THE RACERS GET.
It is no secret that Moses has been pushing for a spec tire for years,nor is it any secret that tire has been the Goodyear 475.
I think there needs to no secrecy in what tire he has in mind and why hasn't it been said,how can anyone make an informed decision without all the information.

If indeed a spec tire is chosen.it has be able to be purchased directly from that tire manufacturer,not through MSR or any other dealer to control its price or monopolize it.
Smells a lot like the old Pro days when everything had to be purchased from Gary Rodriguez and the Factory team got to test all new updates,parts ,etc and was kept secret until right before a big race so they could gain an advantage over all other competitiors.
I know that CRB did not know that Competition Tire will no longer be supporting anyone.
And this can open the door for a sole supplier that can set any price not saving anyone money. So again a spec tire save no money for the racer and it never will..competitton is the only thing that controls costs..

[preston27]

Well said Bruce. Well looks like only 2 drivers are for a spec tire who actually RACE the car. The rest say no. Hope the Comp Board looks at this.
We need more FM racers to speak up.
This is like when Moses had ceramic wheel bearings and titanium bolts made illegal. I was told that if I wanted to spend that kind of money go to another class (at that time Moses was selling them to us).
So if you want to run a spec formula car with a spec tire then go to FE SCCA already has this class. If you want to run a spec car with open tires then run FM that's us. If you want to run a spec tire and open car run FF.

[Darryl Wills]

What Bruce and Robert are bringing to the surface are issues because of single sourcing. FM has never had a spec tire in SCCA competition and we have always been free to source tires from anyone. I remember having to use 250s in the STAR FM series when 430s(spec to the series) were unavailable. I got phone calls from all over the country last year because FM racers needed to go to the Hoosiers because they could not purchase the tire they were using.
One great aspect of FM is that there are no single source on parts. I buy from MSR because it is convenient and I support Moses and Tara. But if they don't have a part, I have the option of sourcing from someone else or making it myself.

[dougnelson]

I began racing FF in 1978 when we had so many cars you had to qualify to race on Sunday. We no longer have 50-70 car fields, we must position ourselves for growth by keeping costs down and fun up.

We chose FM in 2013 as the most affordable and competitive formula class with wings. Affordable based on cost of parts, engine life, gearbox life, tires and total hours to maintain between races.

The use of a spec tire must reduce costs or provide a more even playing field to be effective for all competitors.

A simple way to control tire cost is to limit the number of tires to 4 per double race weekend,
regardless of brand or compound. The tires must be marked after qualifying, this is what you run for the weekend and "required" to be enforced by every region.

A 5th tire can be an option (approved only by a driver majority) by simply taking the tire to impound to be stamped as an option without penalty as many Majors are running one qualifying session and we are combined with many other classes. The savings will be none for some, $1100 for those who could afford the expense.

The objective to limiting tires, creates a more even playing field. Freedom to chose tire and compound remains free and competitive among manufacturers.

Currently several SCCA regions have waived or ignored the tire limitation, this is unacceptable as a driver and national tech inspector. In addition the runoffs ignores the tire limitation all together. This is a discussion for another time or is it?

Any tire used must be available to all competitors to avoid custom compounds, hoarding or any other intent to circumvent the intent.

A submittal to drivers asking for input and suggestions followed by a multiple choice vote will provide SCCA a documented vote. A vote of approval on any change should be a minimum of 2/3rds majority. No majority, no change.

We race for fun, trophies, beer and bragging rights. Bottom line is, we race for fun, if it is no longer fun we will move on to another class, club, sport or sit back and do nothing.

Let us work together as drivers and FM owners and decide what is in the best for us as a whole.

Thank you,

Doug Nelson
#07

[preston27]

This is the best solution I have heard. I'm in. We buy any tire we want to run any compound. They mark our tires as usual and we are allowed to show up at the false grid with just one more tire unmarked for the entire weekend.
So we all save money but get to run what we want and buy from who we want.
Read the post most everything is covered I think.
Thanks Doug

[wannabe]

Well, there not but two tire choices...why not just put a limit on the sizes you can run and leave both manufacturers available to all....spec can still have options... unless there is a financial motivator to push us to one tire and then we need to know what that motivator is...I like the wider tire, cause it fits my driving style better...some people like the narrower tire...sometimes I win, sometimes they do. I say make the national racers run one tire and leave us regional racers alone to choose what's best for us.

[Johnny B]

Doug # 07 seems to have ticked all the boxes. We run an FM here in Canada and on occasion in the northern US. Not having the budget time to test tires, this might be a good solution.

John B.
FM #32

By the way, great video Mike !