VEE wanted with all the goodies

[Abby Normal]

So you decided to retire from racing and that beutiful Vee is just sitting there with a ton of parts and you're probably never going to race it again. What do you have with it- trailer, maybe a spare engine, short and long transmissions, Vee and F1200 rims and tires, lifts... You must have build dates, reciepts, logs etc to show engine time. Located in the Northeast. I'm looking to buy a turnkey, reliable car package for 3,500 to 5,500 (yeah, I know it's low for this web site but I have seen great cars around 5K posted).

Have pictures of the car to send.

Northeast cars only please.

[blackhole]

If you want a decent car that is reliable and quick you need to spend $7000 plus. Anything else is just going to be a money pit.

Trust me Ive been there!!

About a month ago I gave my car away for $6000 it had at least $14000 in it. By the time I was done it was a front runner. But spent way too much. I needed to get rid of it to make way for a new project. It started as a cheap project when we were finished we could have bought two good vees.

Spend a little more too start... jump in and have fun.

If I could recommend a car that would be Steve Bamfords/Greg Rices Mysterian. That thing is a rocket and very well prepared.

Good Luck!

[Abby Normal]

Thanks. I've put in 2 offers on that one but haven't heard back on offer 2. I agree that there is good cars out there for 6K. I've received the same "spend a little more" recommendation. But as a newbie I need to understand the difference between the 4K and 7K cars. If I need to rebuild the motor after the same number of heats anyway, why not buy a less expensive car the first seaon?

There is no way however I want to be a half lap down by lap 2. I'm looking for a car that will be competitive.

My son wants to race also. So yeah, I may be buying 2 cars. I need to have a careful balance on that budget. I can't think of a better time than going head to head with my son even if it's for last place.

[blackhole]

The differences in a good car vs not so good car.

Intake Manifold/Carb (this is a very important thing)
Heads
Bottom ends
Suspension adjustable vs non adjustable and properly valved shocks
Exhaust stepped vs single diameter and Scavenging system
The list goes on.

The differences are vast.

With the answer to your question about buying a cheaper car/engine and getting it rebuilt. It is not about a rebuild it is about having a good platform. ie:good parts that work together to make a good engine. You can have the best of everything engine parts wise but if they don't work together it wont be fast either. With buying a car that is known to be quick you will have solid foundation.

You are also paying for the fact that the car has a history of being quick well setup and reliable.

Again I did the cheap thing it took us 3 years to figure it out and we came from a vast 20 year + racing background with not to mention my mechanic (dad) who is extensively knowledgeable in fabrication and engine buildiing. Not to take anything away from you that you may have vast knowledge.

Take the easy way buy the good car and save money.

[Ackmann]

I have a dog in this race as well as I'm shopping for a car in this entry level point. My experience on cars isn't with FV its with buying and selling collector cars, bikes and boats for 20 years. I believe that cost is just a decision of a agreed price between a buyer and a seller and has nothing to do with what's in or guts of the Tim being bought. Just like anything. You are always better buying a better off buying the nicest car/foundation upfront as it makes sorting out, easier and commonly less total cost. That being said your better off buying a car already done from someone else than doing it yourself with individual items as the return of the labor and parts are most commonly not recoverd. Same hold true with housing and landscape another arena I play in. Go throw $50k into a backyard landscape job and see how much more your house appraises for.

I once was on the block at BJackson and spoke to a guy who just sold a beautiful 200mph custom build car for $100K when I asked him about the sale he laughed and said he had $220k into it. When I asked why he sold it, he said, I never get the money back out of these builds, it's just about the experience of the project and selling it for whatever I get just frees me up to move on to the next project/life experience.

Agaiin, I'm hoping as the author of the thread to get the best equipped package I can for the least amount of money so I can minimize my loss/cost when I go to sell it. The better cars rightfully well cost me more money than a weaker car because the seller feels it's worth more value. Understand that completely. What does that mean, it will likely just take longer to sell than a lower price set up, and normally they selling it because they have desires to do something else with the dollars tied up. I am likely to spend more on my purchase for better quality next month when I pull the trigger, just like the seller will likely take less money than they wanted to put the project to bed and move on with life. The right price is the one that both parties aren't happy but also both parties are satisfied and accepting of the outcome.

My two cents as a inexperienced FV racer, but also someone who knows when to pull out his wallet and make a deal.
Ackmann
Ps. GO DUCKS.....

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Blackhole and Ackmann,

Yes, I'm looking to make a good deal and not get a fixer upper.
Even knowing what makes it all work I'll have to get input from wherever I can to get the correct package. Thanks again for the components highlights.

Its January and I have no less than 3 months to shop and learn. The idea is to find an owner who would like to move on. And to move on now (read as "I need this out of my garage, let me help jump start a newbie and I would rather have the money in my pocket") then I should be able to get what I'm looking for.

Again, I know for 5k to 5.5K I think the car is out there -maybe it's a needle in a haystack. I'm thinking somone will post a 7K car and be negotiable. The cars getting the accolades and listed at 8-11K the second they are posted may not be the V I'm looking for.

[jeffa711]

Hey Abby Normal
I was just in your show . I bought a vee in New York in November. I paid close to $7000 the car Has only been raced 3 times since 2007 when the motor was last freshened up. Everyone one I talked to with a vee knowledge says I stole the car at that price. I looked at several cars the cheapest being $6000 the car was well weathered only thing with the car was a decade old set of rain tire and 6 races on the motor. I got a brand new set of slicks and rain tires the set of tires on the car only have a race on them and are all on new wheels. I think you should figure on spending closer to 7k to get a good car. another note is friend just paid 4.5k for a roller with a complete spare race ready front beam.
were are you planning on running Mohud or the Ner?

[Steve Bamford]

Kevin is giving you good advice from someone who knows what it takes to bring a car to the pointy end of the grid.

I have bought 7k cars that were supposed steals before that actually required a lot of work to make them competitive. Now buying cars I try to buy them with a proven track record and look at who has maintained them. When you have a winning car you know the car has the ability to get to the front and can concentrate on your driving rather then blaming the car for its downfalls.

Good luck in your search, make sure you get a decent car from the start that has been maintained by guys who know what they are doing and not someone who hasn't been around the sport for that long.

[Abby Normal]

I'm not sure what Association I will be driving with yet. Mohud or the Ner?
I'd like to find a group which will run Falkins to lower costs some, which group would that be? I know someone who wants to get FRCCA running V's again but with Falkins.

[jeffa711]

Ner is the scca New England Region
Mohud is the scca Mohawk-Hudson Region
I believe its the f1200 that runs Falken tires mostly in Canada but I believe at Watkins Glen events run both fv and the f1200.
I live near Thompson speedway in Ct and the frcca ran there this year but I was with a friend at NHMS the same weekend I was wondering if they ran fv's but I think there fee's are more expensive than the scca.

[Abby Normal]

I'll have to double check fees with SCCA. I just spoke with FRCCA today. Spring school at Pocono (race#1) plus FRCCA dues is about 500 and 150. $650 gets me a weekend of school and the first race. How does SCCA put it together. I'm sure a school is 650 or so then a weekend race of 500=1150. Thats quite a bit less expensive at FRCCA.

[jeffa711]

well NER has not posted fee's for 2015 yet Buy I believe that my friend who got me into this when he did his school and first race weekend I think it was only like $600 total for the hole think. I may be Wrong I do remember he got a discount on his first race after the school.
I think average scca weekend is a $100-150 for a track day the day before the event. then I believe the highest price I remember was $425 for the Saturday and Sunday races they also discount for early registration and you don't get charged if you don't race.
I'm new to this as well so its all from memory as I wasn't paying. Another thing you get 2 crew members in for free with enterance fee's

[ajpastore]

Jeff is correct.

Last year (2014) the school at NHMS was $299.00.

The school was on Friday and the race was Saturday and Sunday.

There was a discount for race weekend entry $299.00 if signed off on Friday.

So for the SCCA, last year $598.00 got you entry to school and complete race weekend. 2 races and qualifying. It shouldn't be much more this year.

Not $1150.00

-AP

[Abby Normal]

Thanks guys, it looks like I have some options.

I'll need to get a car first!

[davidb]

The worst experience I've had was buying a "super" FC from a well regarded prep shop; I paid absolutely top $.

The best was a vee that I got really cheap and was an immediate front runner.

Make your deal in impound and then drag it home. Whatever you do, don't leave it with the seller so that he can "clean it up."

Good luck, be careful.

[veeracer98]

Friend of mine here in the Detroit area is selling his complete Lynx B copy, race ready (maybe except for belts). With a custom open trailer. He's asking $6K but may be open to offers. Let me know if your interested, I can get you his number.

Dave

DDC Racing

Belleville, MI

[Abby Normal]

Shopping, learning and making the deal is just part of the fun.
Remember the opening post is essentially a "fishing line" for a motivated seller.
I don't expect to be contacted by a shop with a new 15K Vee for sale.
But sometimes meeting in the middle is the right approach - time will tell.

I like the "look in the impound" suggestion

Apexspeed may not be the place I find the car, maybe Thesamba, srracing...

I am definitely getting some knowledgable input here , thanks again for all the links, technical information and contacts...

So for all those that are still reading this thread, who knows a friend with a cousins brother with a Vee sitting for 3 years in their garage, 4 races on the engine and needs room in the garage for their wifes new car?

And if that is where I actually find a car, that would be............... Abby Normal

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Veeracer98, I should be able to get a car closer to NY, Long Island. I'm speaking with a few sellers right now and getting information long distance is a lot of work for both seller and buyer. Seeing a car is much easier.

Thanks for the lead.

[Steve Bamford]

Make sure when you look at cars sitting for 3-4 years to include cost for new belts, new fuel cell and new rebuild of engines as likely they will all need them. Something that someone raced more recently will likely save you money. Someone leaving FV for another class who has been competitive should be a good bet.

Lots of options, good luck in your search.

[Matt King]

So for all those that are still reading this thread, who knows a friend with a cousins brother with a Vee sitting for 3 years in their garage, 4 races on the engine and needs room in the garage for their wifes new car?

How about one that's been sitting for four years with two races on the engine?

[joefuhring]

I have an Lynx for sale or trade with two engines that have only two races on each engine. The car was restored two years ago and only has four races on it. New Fuel cell, new paint, new or rebuilt everything. Give me a call.
805.478.8469

[Albatross]

Abby, I've been thinking about any formula vee that you propose to purchase for $ 3500 - $5500. I raced vees many years ago and have some familiarity with the cars and class even the newer ones and have several friends and acquaintances that raced in last years Run-offs. Please believe the other contributers to this thread. You really get what you pay for. Any Vee that you purchase for $3500 - $5500 extra parts included, couldn't out run a school bus.

[Abby Normal]

I guess the price range will most likely be higher then

-unless-

....you find the motivated seller...

which is what this thread is all about.

[Daryl DeArman]

Find someone willing to look at the cars for you. Someone who knows FV better than the seller.

Nothing worse than buying a car at the top of your budget and finding out it needs lots of stuff made correct.

My advice is that if you don't KNOW what you are getting, pay for it like you are going to have to re-do everything.

Motivated sellers are out there, but you'll have to be patient in your search. If you are advertising a deadline that you are working towards you become a "motivated buyer".

Good luck.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for the offer Joefuhring. Shipping from CA to NY will probably be an added expense. I most likely would like to see the car before I buy it. Probably should be able to find a car here in the NE.

[Numbskull XIV]

I've been lurking on this thread since it started and I think a few things that should be mentioned haven't been yet.

There are many things that determine a price in the formula vee market. If you don't know 100% what your looking at, then I'd suggest you wait until you learn what everything is.

For example, you have not mentioned your size and body build which is very important when considering different chassis. Can you fit into a Lazer, citiation, vortech, or protoform? Or should you consider a womer, d-13, caracal, lynx, or a mysterian? Always sit in the car before you buy to make sure that you can fit.

How competitive is the motor? a National noble motor, a regional motor, or a mom and pop rebuilt motor?

What are the other bits on the car? stepped exhaust? Roxanne Headers? Long gearbox? short? or both? Penske shocks? zero roll suspension? front shock offsets? AIM data system? aluminum or steel floor pan?

Then there is build quality. weight without driver? Newer heims? Newer bonded and flush riveted floor pan? new or newer belts? newer fuel cell? "re-freshened" bodywork? or "rough", spider-cracked, paint chipping, sun fading bodywork? does the shift linkage use apex sealed joins or universal joints?

Then there are the spares. Does is come with a long and a short gearbox? are the gearboxes stock or prepped? spare prepped front beams? stock front beams? spare steering rack? spare suspension pieces? are they prepped with good heims? spare noses? spare bodywork? whats the condition of the spare bodywork? new spare brake drums + bits? spare fresh motor? spare "needs rebuilt" motor? spare sets of wheels? are they straight of bent?

Then Tires. whats on the car? spare new sets? spare used sets? take off sets? how long have they been sitting? how have they been stored? mounted or unmounted? sticker or scuffs? compounds? R25? R35? R45?

And finally, extras. Trailer? open or enclosed? specialty tools? setup notes for tracks? continued support after the sale? formula jack included? working stands and such equipment?

All of these things (and more) determine the ballpark price. Just buying a car that's in your "budget" doesn't qualify how good of a deal you got or whether it was worth it or not.


Just my $0.02,

[joefuhring]

Albatross I hope that you are not referring to my Lynx formula Vee. This car is in excellent shape and everything is either rebuilt or new, although it would be best used in vintage racing but it also could be used in either. In California several years ago FVS like this would sell anywhere from 6 to 8 grand but in the past few years the prices have gone down.

Since I now race formula ford I have no need for the Lynx, one of the engines in it is a Ditmar engine and the other is a Ron Chuck engine with only two races on each. If I could get $5,000 for everything someone would be getting a very good deal. Aside from fuel, oil change and new battery the car is truly race ready.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Numbskull XIV. Now your dialing me in!

I've only sat in one car and I felt tight. Not sure how it should feel. I know the other driver was shorter so I figured I could adjust the pedals or seat but what is the correct width?

Someone also had seen one of the other cars I was looking at which may not have had foward roll bar supports. I need to check the SCCA specs on that.

I'm 5'8 1/2 tall, 170lb, but a little wider up top.

How tight should the shoulders be inbetween the roll bars. I would suspect no one wants to reweld a chassis just to get into if there are mfr's that fit wider people?

[FV90]

A friend of mine has a great car at a great price.
91 Caracal D - SEDIV TT track records at TGPR, NSS, BMP, AMP
Proven TT winner - could be regional road race winner with right driver
Needs rear shock rebuild to be race-ready
Noble national motor with 6 weekends since rebuild, Noble-prepped carb, regional manifold
New brake cylinders - master and slave
New Porterfield brake shoes
Belts rewebbed this year
Road race annual good until August
Some spares including bare front beam and longbox transaxle
Four sets of wheels, one good set of Goodyear drys mounted, two sets of Goodyear wets - one set mounted, two sets of practice tires mounted
Needs rear shock rebuild - I will start on that this week
Haulmark single axle trailer with electric brakes and breakaway, new tires in '12, EZ-trac

Car:
$6000 as configured with Carrera rear
$6250 as configured and a freshly-rebuilt Penske 8100

Car and trailer:
$7250 as configured with Carrera rear
$7500 as configured and a freshly-rebuilt Penske 8100

PM me for his name and phone number.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Apex speed, I now have a car, trailer and stuff!!!!

Now I just have to figure out how to get 4 wheels on the track.
Everyone I have spoken with has been great. Looking forward to meeting everyone and if all goes well I'll see you in my rear view mirrors

[jeffa711]

glad to hear what did you pick up?

[Abby Normal]

Hi jeffa711,

I picked up Scottys BRD Vee which is about a page down on this forum. David Carr regional engine,Solo data, long box, body is in very nice shape. I need to tweak the seat back which may cause a relocation of the fire bottle. 1200 tires and rims with a good amount of tread left Comes with vee rims. Built by the owner lots of passion was put into the car. See the car by googling "Flying Scot Racing Facebook".Scotty has been great in supporting me in all the questions I have. Has a log book and track setup info and receipts. Cable clutch. $5500 with an aluminum trailer. Battery on a tender . Just what I was looking for and local. Hopefully the car will holdup for my first 2 seasons as is. My name is already embroidered in the headrest. How could I say no to a car with my name on it.

[ajpastore]

Congrats on your new to you car.
Where are you planning on racing?
There is a school at NHMS in May if you want to get the season started sooner than later.
I see you are on Long Island so you have Lime Rock and Thompson across the sound as well as New Jersey all within a few hours tow.
Check out the NEFV website for some contacts in the North East. (the website is going through a rebuild but the schedule and contacts are there right now)

http://www.nefv.org/home.html

Cheers,
Andy P.

[Abby Normal]

I'm looking at both FRCCA and SCCA to get my novice either at a Pocono weekend or nhmsp. I'm waiting on the Nefv site to get their schedule out. Advantage of FRCCA is track venues. I've been speaking with their club. They have a lean turn out for Vees from my understanding. I'm trying to understand which groups I can race with if I only have a novice license from either club. Can I race some of the Challenge series? FRCCA said they would need to forward a letter of successful driving to SCCA , I don't know the visa versa

[ajpastore]

Here is a link to most of the SCCA events in the North East run by the SCCA.

http://www.nefv.org/events.html

You can race all these events and the Challenge series with an SCCA competition license.

But only the Challenge Series is running the radial tire at the moment. Maybe someone running that series can speak up.

If the FRCCA has a lean turn out I wouldn't recommend starting there. You will benefit greatly from being with other Vee Drivers rather than by yourself.

Please contact someone from the NEFV website. There are a lot of questions that can be answered by talking to someone.

Andy P.

[BLS]

I don't know about the FRCCA.

If you go to the SCCA drivers school and complete it, you are then eligible to run in any SCCA regional race. Complete 3 SCCA regional weekends and you will then have a full competition license, good for regionals and majors races.

[Abby Normal]

My first season I'm trying to get out 4 to 6 days. That would include my school. I like the radial tire route just to keep budgets in check and since I'm a novice the chance of landing up front maybe slim. Could I run the radials with SCCA cars without hoosiers? I was getting suggestions of American Racer tires as being a bit more reasonable. Then there's the HANS and other gear I'll need....if anyone knows of some budget friendly used gear or the best web site to acquire them that would be helpful. From what I have been reading NEFV looks like a great organization. May school is what I'm shooting for.

[BLS]

4-6 days or 4-6 weekends?

A typical school or regional race is a 2 day event, at least in the SCCA. Unless you're a special talent it will likely take a few weekends...

HANS devices show up on APEX classifieds occasionally. But you need to know the angle and size. Most V's use a 30 degree and your size would indicate a medium to me. Post a wanted add.

I have bought 2 racing suits on ebay. This seems to be one of the better vendors for used suits: http://stores.ebay.com/Oversteer-Gear

There are also reasonably priced new suits.

I would not mess with a used helmet. Socks and underwear are reasonably priced new. Same for gloves. In a pinch you can use all leather gloves and leather moccasins. I still wear moccasins because of space issues with my large feet.

Normal SCCA V racing would not allow the wheels used by the Canadians. I do not know if the AR's are available for V's. Best bet is to use what everyone else uses, Hoosiers.

[derminator]

You mentioned you where looking to run on Falkens. If you on the FV discussion you will find information on the Challenge Cup Series. Contact me directly should you need anymore information
And welcome to FV

[tgaluardi]

Since you are located on Long Island you might call Victor Gagliano at VAS Enterprises. He has been in business for over 40 years and might be able to help with reasonable prices. He might be close enough that you could go to his place and try things on to get the proper fit especially the helmet. His web site is usually not up to date so don't go by that. But, he does carry some discontinued items for less cost. Give him a call: (516) 775-1060.