UK (and world?) FF replacement

[Swift17]

The new UK variant of FIA Formula 4 will use Mygale chassis when it replaces British Formula Ford next season under the name MSA Formula.

Mygale has been the main chassis provider for British FFord for several seasons and its carbon-composite monocoque FIA F4 chassis will be used from 2015 as the series adopts the world governing body's blueprint for a universal junior formula.

The Motor Sports Association-backed category, which replaces British FFord on the BTCC support bill will use Hankook tyres instead of continuing with FFord supplier Dunlop.

It means the cars will run on the same compound and construction rubber as the FIA-sanctioned Formula 3 European Championship.

Ford's detuned 160bhp EcoBoost engines, reduced in power by 40bhp to fit FIA F4's power-to-weight ratio, will be prepared and supplied solely by Sodemo and be available on a season's lease for £4800/$7,461.60.

The chassis, which includes a six-speed sequential gearbox, paddleshift steering wheel and data-logging system will cost £30,400/$47,256.80.

[racerdad2]

Nice ride !

[swiftdrivr]

Not exactly a formula racer for the average man. Kind of abandons the idea that made FF such a success.

[racerdad2]

Well.... a new FF runs as much or more with the exception of leasing the engine as opposed to owning it ?

And, IMHO, the average racer races used cars ? Just think if these became really popular & plentiful. In a few years the average guy could afford one.

Maybe

I love my old Reynard and all the tube frame formula cars. They are relatively easy to build & repair. I don't know of many, if any, home builders that can build a carbon tub in their garage. And.... I truly appreciate ALL the current Formula car constructors here in the USA. The time, effort, engineering & development that these men have put into our cars & sport leaves me in complete awe & admiration.

For guys like me, "more Hunt than Lauda", we'd be still be racing "Flintstone Mobiles".

YaBa DaBa Doooo !

Back to the garage. .. just hoping I remember how to put this thing back together after the parts come back. Still in disassembly mode.....

[provamo]

you cannot turn back the clock

[swiftdrivr]

You can't turn back the clock, but you can abandon a good idea for a bad one. Look at what Ford did with the Mustang [they have since then seen the error of their ways, and reverted to Pony car, not bloated, 2+2, pseudo-pony cars]

[Parker]

Looks awesome!

Is there going to be any non-winged formula racing over there?
Why do they need a turbo to get 120 HP? Or is it detuned from 200?

[Albatross]

Whoopeeee...another formula car..

[provamo]

Whoopeeee...another formula car..

EXACTLY

[Bill Elder]

They've adopted the same package over here....although there was some rumour of a fiat engine a little while back before the sodemo ford was confirmed the other week. Selling point was supposed to be cheaper to run, every team is quoting 200 to 250,000 a season to prospective drivers I hear, so not much change from before!

http://www.speedcafe.com/2014/09/24/...-4-investment/

[Rick Kirchner]

The only passing will now be in the crashing.....

[Kazis31]

Bit old info.
Top Formula 3 teams were spending close to 400 000 Euros per car in 2010.
200k dollars will gets you mid of pack at best .
Brand new Dallara chassis is 120 eur + motor etc.
Pro racing will never be affordable for average man.
50's and 60 's where last decades when that was possible....
Top British FF teams are spending north of 200k euros a year as well.

[R. Pare]

Whoopeeee...another formula car..

And it isn't even a Formula Ford!

[Jnovak]

I hate to say this but this is another example of another open wheel class that makes ZERO SENSE. The days of great and ferocious open wheel club racing that lots could afford are GONE.

[provamo]

what made FF (drivers, crew, and car builders) so great, and i am speaking of the seventies, is that participants got to progress into F1 and the Indy 500

ain't happening any more

never will

[SEComposites]

The original concept of FF was great and is probably still valid. Multiple chassis builders, one motor, all weather tires, steel non adjustable dampers etc etc. F600 unfortunately misses the mark, current FF is way too costly, FVee is great but antiquated these days.

[S Lathrop]

The one thing that I can tell from the picture and description of the car is who the organizers think the customers will be. And it is not going to be the drivers who formed the foundation of the Formula Ford market in the past or present. This is a car for the rich dads to squander money on their kids.

[allof6]

Out of curiosity Steve what does a new Citation go for as a "Pro Roller".

Thanks

[Purple Frog]

If Swift17's numbers are correct... $55,000 for the complete car first season is a lot cheaper than any brand new FF or FC in the US. Especially with a 6 speed sequential and paddle shifting.

In reality those are today's 'blue collar' prices. Todays' $55K is about the equivalent of $9,300 in 1970.

[DaveW]

If Swift17's numbers are correct... $55,000 for the complete car first season is a lot cheaper than any brand new FF or FC in the US. Especially with a 6 speed sequential and paddle shifting.

In reality those are today's 'blue collar' prices. Todays' $55K is about the equivalent of $9,300 in 1970.

My 1st FF was $4800 roller + $1300 for the engine in 1973.

[R. Pare]

That would be $26320 in 2014 dollars for the car, $7128 for the engine.

[Jnovak]

That would be $26320 in 2014 dollars for the car, $7128 for the engine.

Now you are talking about $80k for a brand new FF.

[Purple Frog]

1970 dollar = $5.92 2014 dollars.

Swift17 said $47K+ for chassis, 7K plus for 1 year engine. ~$55,000

$55,000 divided by $5.92 = $9,290.54

Twice what Dave pain for a FF in '73.

But, would Geremy build you a brand new Runoffs winning capable Citation/Honda for $55k today?
I doubt it.

Dave... your Zetec refresh this winter will probably cost more than your first FF.

[R. Pare]

But, would Geremy build you a brand new Runoffs winning capable Citation/Honda for $55k today?
I doubt it.

You can't buy a full front corner from the junkyard - upright, hub, rotor, brake caliper, steering arm - for $25 any more either!

[DaveW]

...
Dave... your Zetec refresh this winter will probably cost more than your first FF.

Probably true! At least I can pay for it in 2015 dollars...

[Steve Bamford]

I would imagine these new cars will cost more then listed, they usually do. Buying the car is generally just the start as costs increase dramatically from there. These won't be cars run by the kids fathers, not my guess anyways.

No it doesn't look like a Formula Ford, but the previous version they have run for a few seasons doesn't either.

Not sure why anyone thinks racing is cheap, in case you didn't know USF season costs will be in the multiple hundreds of thousands for a season. Keep bringing more money as you move up the laddar and once you reach Indy Car hopefully you are bringing a few million a year to the team or likely you will be out of a ride sooner then later.

As for why another class, if you were a manufacture you would continue to try to develop new classes to sell new cars. Can't blame Mygale or other manufactures for that, it is simply business.

[Jnovak]

I would imagine these new cars will cost more then listed, they usually do. Buying the car is generally just the start as costs increase dramatically from there. These won't be cars run by the kids fathers, not my guess anyways.

No it doesn't look like a Formula Ford, but the previous version they have run for a few seasons doesn't either.

Not sure why anyone thinks racing is cheap, in case you didn't know USF season costs will be in the multiple hundreds of thousands for a season. Keep bringing more money as you move up the laddar and once you reach Indy Car hopefully you are bringing a few million a year to the team or likely you will be out of a ride sooner then later.

As for why another class, if you were a manufacture you would continue to try to develop new classes to sell new cars. Can't blame Mygale or other manufactures for that, it is simply business.

The reality is that the business of running any race team has changed. What this now means is that the lowest level of any of the pro deals is a money game period. The costs to enter and race are simply what the traffic will bear. If it was $200k a couple of years ago it is $300k now and I guarantee you that the costs will continue to escalate until the payers will not pay the amount required. Then you will see a stabilization of costs to compete, but of course it will be way beyond what a top "club" racer would pay.

This is why you see that every stepping stone pro class is composed of very controlled high $$ spec cars that are owned by the teams and supplied and controlled by the series owners. There is simply no interest from the teams perspective to change any of this. This is why you are seeing all of these stepping stone classes composed of about 25-30 cars max and all are owned by the teams. This is the way the teams make money and it simply cannot change.

If you really want a very low cost and relatively fast open wheel race car it will need to be something like the F600 Challenge Series. As the F600 class continues to grow and the car rules become a bit more realistic this class could possibly pave the way but it will NEVER SUPPLANT the current ladder series as that is where the real $$$ are.

[Swift17]

I had the opportunity to read a while back a few articles and op-eds regarding the new F4 class ......... One was by Gerhard Berger who was the driving force behind the plan ... Funding for the plan came from the McLaren $100M fine. The consensus was that there too many classes - too many series trying for the same $$$ and the same seats ....... (duh!) Let me be the Champion of the "unknown" series as opposed to 6th in the nationally recognized Championship ..

Side Note - when I raced in Europe you had Karts, then The British FF Championships (there were two series) leading to the FF Festival then the Racing Displays F2000 Championship, British (and Euro) F3, some drivers [Senna, Brundle, etc.] then right to F1, some to F3000 and then F1.

Surveys were done for over 18 months with Euro Karters and they opined they wanted to go from Karts - the consensus was from slicks mounted karts to slicks mounted cars very minor aero and a production based motor. The F4 does that - very small cord wings (for balance) same tires as F3 and a clear "cream-to-the-top" vertical path.

So...... the F4 car which had to meet the current safety standards (hence the carbon tub) by the way while more than a current Mygale or Spectrum - the difference is less given and is especially true since it come with sequential gearbox, data, wings, etc.

So the plan is to have National series of F4 (through out the world) then have a International Europe based series GP4 - then to GP3 with the same tires better wings etc. (and new production based motor) then GP2 and ..............F1.

It would be interesting to see if Anderson goes this way for the F2000 new car to come.............

[S Lathrop]

Out of curiosity Steve what does a new Citation go for as a "Pro Roller".

Thanks

You don't want to know. North of $75,000 by a bunch.

But, if you could produce 20 cars per year and sell them as you finished them, the cost would be dramatically less. Maybe below $55,000.

[S Lathrop]

I did a study on the cost of producing a single upright complete with brakes and wheel. With the right design that could be done for about $500 a corner. The rear would increase by the cost of a drive axel and CV joints. In expensive is possible.

If all the manufacturers were to build to a common design for the suspension parts and only be looking at doing body work and chassis, maybe control arms much like FV, you could have FF level performance for around $30,000. Maybe use a common sourced bike type engine, similar to Legends cars for a the power plant.

It ain't going to happen with a spec car program. Anybody who says different is a snake oil salesman.

[Joefisherff]

If only SCCA would come to this same conclusion instead of adding at least one new Formula Car Class to the mix every year:

. The consensus was that there too many classes - too many series trying for the same $$$ and the same seats ....... (duh!) Let me be the Champion of the "unknown" series as opposed to 6th in the nationally recognized Championship ..

[Steve Bamford]

If only SCCA would come to this same conclusion instead of adding at least one new Formula Car Class to the mix every year:

. The consensus was that there too many classes - too many series trying for the same $$$ and the same seats ....... (duh!) Let me be the Champion of the "unknown" series as opposed to 6th in the nationally recognized Championship ..

No, SCCA is Club racing only, not move up the ladder racing. That ship has sailed many, many, many years ago & is not coming back.

SCCA is now there to allow a place for all cars to race.

[swiftdrivr]

In FF, as it originally existed, racing was cheap enough to make racing a possibility for middle class dreamers and dedicated [fanatic] less-well-off individuals who would / could scrounge parts and do their own work. This let a whole lot of people play, who never realistically had any dreams or plans of going pro. Some found out they had the talent, and dreams were chased in higher series, some successfully. Most, however, had a great time, made friends, watched the pros and tried to emulate their skills, and most importantly, had fun. That class has slipped away to a large degree, although Club Ford still retains much of that character. I wonder, if someone were to build it, if a "new" Club Ford legal car was built, would it pull in the guys who used to scrounge junk yards and work second jobs to afford a Formula Ford. It would have no press, and no support [What there is of that would be used in the more Pro-future oriented classes], and lots of competition that FF didn't have, so it wouldn't replicate the success FF had, but it would work for the huge numbers of guys who would like to race a real car, but can't afford a new $75,000 FF.

[provamo]

RIP

[Steve Bamford]

RIP

Why? Wasn't there well over 100 FF cars for the Walter Hayes Trophy a few months ago? Isn't there healthy series for FF in Arizona with 20 car fields & 20 car fields here in Ontario, Canada upwards of 40 cars in Quebec?

Aren't there more new FF's being produced & sold in the last few years then the previous 10 years?

What is listed above is simply another class of car for a different type of driver then an SCCA Club or even SCCA Pro driver. Nothing wrong with it if they can make it work then obviously it is filling a need for some people. I would imagine the series couldn't care less about the SCCA.

[provamo]

i guess that i am stuck in the sixties and seventies LOL

[Steve Bamford]

i guess that i am stuck in the sixties and seventies LOL

Good enough reason, can't argue with that point

[rickb99]

then right to F1, some to F3000 and then F1. ............

But now, you've got 5,000 guys chasing those 20 or 22 F1 seats. So, you have to build a larger holding pattern to put them in to for a few years until they give up. Thus, the ever increasing number of formula car classes.

I remember the days for F3 (500 cc mc engines0, F2 (more or less 2 Liter) and then F1. Simple 3 step ladder with few problems.

[racerdad2]

Random Thoughts...

I must say that FF is still very affordable. Sure, new cars are out of reach for many. Thankfully, there are still guys building &, more importantly, buying new cars. For the average guy, lots of cars to be had for $10-20-30-40k. Pick your entry point.

I believe it has more to do with 'want to' than 'can do'.

Lots of young guns running in $20-50k SM's, Rice burners, Street Rods. Same goes for 4 Wheelers, Bass boats, Diesel Truck drags, Drag racing, etc.

For whatever reason, Open Wheel Formula Club Racing is just not as popular as it once was.

For many, the digital world has taken the place of our analog world.

[provamo]

Random Thoughts...

I must say that FF is still very affordable. Sure, new cars are out of reach for many. Thankfully, there are still guys building &, more importantly, buying new cars. For the average guy, lots of cars to be had for $10-20-30-40k. Pick your entry point.

I believe it has more to do with 'want to' than 'can do'.

Lots of young guns running in $20-50k SM's, Rice burners, Street Rods. Same goes for 4 Wheelers, Bass boats, Diesel Truck drags, Drag racing, etc.

For whatever reason, Open Wheel Formula Club Racing is just not as popular as it once was.

For many, the digital world has taken the place of our analog world.

true! as i equate 'want to' with PASSION