Poll: FF SPEC TIRE

[EACIII]

I did a quick measurement on the Bowman before heading off to work this morning then a little math at the office and getting 3 degrees on the front of the Bowman will be no issue (just remove some shims). Looks like it may be OK in the rear also.

So that said, I vote for any of the Hoosier chooses. Why Hoosier over Toyo. One Hoosier has always provided great track support in the NE (that is why I left GY years ago - it sucked). And I don't leave someone who has been good to me for years because there is a new kid on the block. And I would prefer a lighter racing tire over a heavy DOT tire.

Also having to decide wether to go to the grid on rains or slicks is part of the racing game. At least here in the NE when can be sunny one minute and raining the next.

Ed

[SEComposites]

What does a set of R60's cost?

[reidhazelton]

What does a set of R60's cost?

About $625 without tax and shipping it seems. Price off the internet, so local results may vary.

[DanW]

What does a set of R60's cost?

Per Hoosier Tire West, $638 a set.

http://www.hoosiertirewest.com/brows...icks/2,31.html

[jgrooms]

I sent my letter today. I am in favor of the Hoosier R-60 as I have an older car and would like something that I can bolt on to my car and go racing. Forcing low budget teams to buy wishbones, spring assortments, additional gear ratios, testing time, etc. is not going to bring guys back to the track.

Have a great holiday.

John

[Swift17]

.... , I vote for any of the Hoosier chooses. Why Hoosier over Toyo. One Hoosier has always provided great track support in the NE (that is why I left GY years ago - it sucked). And I don't leave someone who has been good to me for years because there is a new kid on the block. And I would prefer a lighter racing tire over a heavy DOT tire. ... Ed

I sent my letter today. I am in favor of the Hoosier R-60 as I have an older car and would like something that I can bolt on to my car and go racing. Forcing low budget teams to buy wishbones, spring assortments, additional gear ratios, testing time, etc. is not going to bring guys back to the track. Have a great holiday. John

[Steve Bamford]

How many heat cycles do the current R60's last for before less then half a second drop off for a front runner like Reid or Tim? I have no clue myself so are interested. If less then 20 heat cycles, possibly the big H could come up with something better?

[TimH]

How many heat cycles do the current R60's last for before less then half a second drop off for a front runner like Reid or Tim? I have no clue myself so are interested. If less then 20 heat cycles, possibly the big H could come up with something better?

They can probably make the Unicorn tire, if given the spec, solidarity from us, and a couple of years. I'm also very interested in the andwer to you question..

[PRS56]

The R60 was one of the approved tires that we could run in the NE NARRC series.
I ran them for about 3 seasons when the GY tire became impossible to get any more.
My recollection was that I got about 15 heat cycles before they started to really go away.
They don't come in very quickly on a cold track.
I also didn't like that they didn't really give you feedback to let you know when they were going to break loose. It was very sudden if it ever happened.
I'm having much more fun in the car running treaded tires.
Not having to worry about rains is very much a bonus as well.

[Will Velkoff]

I can vouch for the above. 15 heat cycles seems to be the magic number on the last 3 sets I've run through from new. From stickers until then though, they can be within .5-1 second.

Since I'm still improving my driving I scored my best lap time to date on the 8th heat cycle this fall at Lime Rock, so that's telling me there's still plenty more in the driver!

I do agree about the lack of feedback from the tire when compared to a treaded tire, but regardless I've enjoyed it and will continue to enjoy for at least this season. Maybe if Hoosier would ditch the cantilever on this and we ran the same size tires on all 4 corners this would be a good compromise for a spec tire.

[RussMcB]

(deleted)

[Roux]

What is the objection to the cantilever design? I can imagine the average tire shop will not want to take on mounting them. If that is the issue, then I understand. Sort of. I have zero issue working them onto or off the rim with a HF cheapy tool.

Steve

[Roux]

If you watch this video from 10:40 onwards you will see me sliding around a bit on the R60's. I think they are quite manageable when they give up, you just have to be quick with the wheel. It is not a dangerous loss of grip is what I am trying to say, so those with zero experience on them should not fear their behavior at the limit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN1KJlGS25U

JD's video. Thanks JD!

Steve

[John LaRue]

What is the availability of the various proposed tires? (Do we have any idea that there is sufficient inventory to meet the demand if a spec tire rule is adopted?)

What about future commitment to producing the new spec tire?

What do we do if all of a sudden the tire is no longer available? (we need a contingency plan in place.)

If a spec tire is adopted (especially a street tire) it would seem quite unlikely that any more tires will be produced specifically for FF (other than the Pro FF tire and there is no assurance on how long that will last as pro series tend to come and go). Would this paint the class into a corner as far as tires being available in the future?

What is the specific tire size for FF in street radials? F/R? How many different manufacturers are building tires that "could" be used for this class if the Toyo were to be discontinued?

Who is the contact person at Toyo?

This is just a short list off the top of my head. I would suggest that rather than playing keyboard jockey trying to convince each other that this is the best thing since sliced bread you do some critical thinking on possible short comings. If there are none then great, but consider all sides of the proposal.

[swiftdrivr]

Does anyone have any contacts at Hoosier, who could get their thoughts on a spec CLUB [as opposed to Pro] tire? Is the PRO radial their "last word", or would they be open to making a club tire that is cheaper, requires less "conversion," and lasts longer?
And as for me, I like the look of the cantilever, so I was also wondering why people are opposed to it. The fitment issue seems to have been solved by spacers, several years ago for most of us. Not a big issue, obviously, unless it impacts price / cost of construction.

[Matt King]

What do we do if all of a sudden the tire is no longer available? (we need a contingency plan in place.)

What is the contingency plan now if Hoosier were to go out of business or have a serious supply problem (e.g., plant burns down)?

I can speak from personal experience with Toyo that there was a time when I was running RA-1s as a spec tire and none were available in our size in the US for an extended period in the middle of a racing season due to manufacturing and delivery problems on their end, so it can happen.

I'm sure it has happened with other companies too. I also remember showing up at the Runoffs in 2010 and finding that Hoosier had brought exactly ZERO FV spare tires with them to the track. The only tires they had on hand were pre-sold and if you needed a tire at the track, you were SOL.

[SEComposites]

64 votes for the Toyo can't be ignored. The R60 doesn't last as long and it is not a duel purpose wet/dry tire. Perhaps if Hoosier came up with a race only semi slick (wet/dry use) tire then that might be worth considering. As it is the Toyo fits the bill. Lets get FF back in line with its origins and more significantly in line with the rest of the world.

[Steve Bamford]

What is the availability of the various proposed tires? (Do we have any idea that there is sufficient inventory to meet the demand if a spec tire rule is adopted?)

What about future commitment to producing the new spec tire?

What do we do if all of a sudden the tire is no longer available? (we need a contingency plan in place.)

If a spec tire is adopted (especially a street tire) it would seem quite unlikely that any more tires will be produced specifically for FF (other than the Pro FF tire and there is no assurance on how long that will last as pro series tend to come and go). Would this paint the class into a corner as far as tires being available in the future?

What is the specific tire size for FF in street radials? F/R? How many different manufacturers are building tires that "could" be used for this class if the Toyo were to be discontinued?

Who is the contact person at Toyo?

This is just a short list off the top of my head. I would suggest that rather than playing keyboard jockey trying to convince each other that this is the best thing since sliced bread you do some critical thinking on possible short comings. If there are none then great, but consider all sides of the proposal.

John,

If you would like, we could help put you in touch with the people at Toyo who can answer the important questions you are asking. Bruce from Hoosier had thrown out the idea of a treaded tire as an option for the new spec Pro Tire last year so they do have the ability to produce it. These are really questions for the manufactures themselves. Yes it is part of the process but the SCCA needs to reach out to the manufactures with these questions. We, behind the keyboard, can not realistically make these calls as we have little to no power at all to decide upon a tire, that is SCCA. I can help put whomever makes these decisions at the SCCA in touch with the individuals at the manufactures...just let me know if you need help with that.

[Steve Bamford]

64 votes for the Toyo can't be ignored. The R60 doesn't last as long and it is not a duel purpose wet/dry tire. Perhaps if Hoosier came up with a race only semi slick (wet/dry use) tire then that might be worth considering. As it is the Toyo fits the bill. Lets get FF back in line with its origins and more significantly in line with the rest of the world.

I personally view this pole more as tread DOT for $600.00 as the Toyo and all other tires as a hard long lasting slick. Yes Toyo does fit the bill as a long lasting DOT treaded tire that has been run by front running teams in different series.

My issue with the R60 is that it really doesn't last as long as and I am not sure how long the tire would last with the same front running teams that get 20 heat cycles out of the treaded tire.

Someone like Tim or Reid I doubt have ever used a R60 to confirm the actual number of heat cycles before a drop off of more the half a second a lap. If it is 8 heat cycles for one of those drives, mid pack guys could see probably double the time before they noticed a drop off. That is a concern I have for the R60.

Whatever the choice, we would still be far better off with a hard slick like the R60 then our current open tire rule.

[John LaRue]

What is the contingency plan now if Hoosier were to go out of business or have a serious supply problem (e.g., plant burns down)?

Currently you don't have a spec tire so you could look to ANY alternative so long as it fit on the wheel. Once you set a spec tire there would have to be a rule change to address the problem and then you would have to hope there was a viable alternative available. Because of the oddity of the tire/wheel size it is a potential problem.

Sure Steve - provide me with the contact information and we will investigate.

All I am trying to do is to get everyone to apply some critical thinking to this proposal. The upside is readily apparent - that is all that has been discussed on the forums; think about the possible downside risks and discuss those as well.

[Steve Bamford]

Sure Steve - provide me with the contact information and we will investigate.

I am guessing you mean for Toyo. I am sure you know who to speak with at Hoosier.

[John LaRue]

I am guessing you mean for Toyo. I am sure you know who to speak with at Hoosier.

10-4

[John LaRue]

Regarding the R60 - touch base with John Robinson.

[Raceworks]

What is the objection to the cantilever design? I can imagine the average tire shop will not want to take on mounting them. If that is the issue, then I understand. Sort of. I have zero issue working them onto or off the rim with a HF cheapy tool.

Steve

My understanding is they're just a huge pain to deal with even for the trackside guys. I've also been told that the circumstances that required the cantilever don't exist any more.

The problem is that everyone still wants them because "it's what we always ran before."

[Steve Bamford]

10-4

I emailed the contact info for Toyo. Hope it helps.

[Steve Bamford]

My understanding is they're just a huge pain to deal with even for the trackside guys. I've also been told that the circumstances that required the cantilever don't exist any more.

The problem is that everyone still wants them because "it's what we always ran before."

I could be totally wrong but I believe it is cheaper for the manufactures to make without the cantilever and they would like to do away with them as well.

[Raceworks]

I could be totally wrong but I believe it is cheaper for the manufactures to make without the cantilever and they would like to do away with them as well.

Does anyone know exactly why they went that way with the tires? I get that it makes the contact patch wider but the sidewalls seem to flex a hell of a lot more than on cars with non-cantilever slicks.

[Steve Bamford]

Regarding the R60 - touch base with John Robinson.

JR2, maybe you can advise on drop off after multiple heat cycles on the R60 as JL has mentioned you have experience with them.

[Peter Olivola]

When there was more competition for racing rubber on FF's (Dunlop, Goodyear & Firestone) it was a way to increase the contact patch on the rear to reduce oversteer. It also made the rear of the car less camber sensitive in much the same way that rubber bushings make production based cars less responsive to precise alignment.

The cantilever originated with Prod cars where the "tread" couldn't exceed the fender and rim widths are restricted.

The tire manufacturers have been prodding sanctioning bodies to do away with cantilever tires for some time now.

Does anyone know exactly why they went that way with the tires? I get that it makes the contact patch wider but the sidewalls seem to flex a hell of a lot more than on cars with non-cantilever slicks.

[Brian C in Az]

I sent my letter today. I am in favor of the Hoosier R-60 as I have an older car and would like something that I can bolt on to my car and go racing. Forcing low budget teams to buy wishbones, spring assortments, additional gear ratios, testing time, etc. is not going to bring guys back to the track.

Have a great holiday.

John

The Toyo tires do not require any new suspension pieces, it was the new Hoosier tire that requires 3.5* of negative camber to work. The Toyo radials only require 1.5 to 2.x*

[Brian C in Az]

What is the availability of the various proposed tires? (Do we have any idea that there is sufficient inventory to meet the demand if a spec tire rule is adopted?)

What about future commitment to producing the new spec tire?

What do we do if all of a sudden the tire is no longer available? (we need a contingency plan in place.)

Toyo is committed to this tire and our class for 5 years. They signed a 5 year sponsorship contract for the Canadian series. They are committed with the R888 for the American racers as well in various classes.

If a spec tire is adopted (especially a street tire) it would seem quite unlikely that any more tires will be produced specifically for FF (other than the Pro FF tire and there is no assurance on how long that will last as pro series tend to come and go). Would this paint the class into a corner as far as tires being available in the future?

Isn't that the present case now with Hoosier?

[steve zemke]

What is the objection to the cantilever design? I can imagine the average tire shop will not want to take on mounting them. If that is the issue, then I understand. Sort of. I have zero issue working them onto or off the rim with a HF cheapy tool.

Steve

I have an old Coats 10-10 machine. I mount them with no more trouble than the fronts.
YMMV

Steve

[Brian C in Az]

There are more votes for the Toyo R888 than all other choices combined.

[John LaRue]

Isn't that the present case now with Hoosier?

No.

[John Robinson II]

Steve,
it was a long time ago when I raced in CF. But my recollection was that for the first few seasons only used 1 or 2 sets per season, but after got to the front and was challenging for SARRC championship points became everything and new tires were definitely faster. There were some places, like Daytona, that new tires made little difference. Savanah, Sebring, road Atlanta, Kershaw- new tires made enough difference they were needed. the other thing to keep in mind is that these tires are cheaper for a reason. the use old technology and materials. if hoosier were to use the R60 compound on a new carcass, the tires would cost the same as now.

My questions are these, by going to a less expensive tire how many cars will this get out of the garage? How many more races will current racers do?

why not have a spec tire for the "regional" races and open tires for the majors.

JRII

[andyllc]

If the idea is to have a tire for MAJORS that can be used for more than one event (meaning more than one weekend as race tires) then the R-60 is not it. For Regionals, you can get away with this. With our Crossle the R-60's have about a ten heat cycle life. If this tire were mandated as the spec tire for Majors then I would buy new tires every weekend. I wouldn't buy two sets but I would buy one.

[Steve Bamford]

Isn't that the present case now with Hoosier?

No.

The current status is open tire rule so i believe that is why John replied no.

[Steve Bamford]

Steve,
it was a long time ago when I raced in CF. But my recollection was that for the first few seasons only used 1 or 2 sets per season, but after got to the front and was challenging for SARRC championship points became everything and new tires were definitely faster. There were some places, like Daytona, that new tires made little difference. Savanah, Sebring, road Atlanta, Kershaw- new tires made enough difference they were needed. the other thing to keep in mind is that these tires are cheaper for a reason. the use old technology and materials. if hoosier were to use the R60 compound on a new carcass, the tires would cost the same as now.

My questions are these, by going to a less expensive tire how many cars will this get out of the garage? How many more races will current racers do?

why not have a spec tire for the "regional" races and open tires for the majors.

JRII

Thanks John,

Based on this info then the R60 doesn't fit as a spec tire if you are requesting a tire that does not drop off for a significant number of heat cycles. From the sounds of things the new Pro tire will likely last approx the same amount of heat cycles as the R60 but we will know whether that holds true in the next few months.

[jgrooms]

Can someone with Toyo experience chime in on car setup? What are the camber ranges front and rear and what is the diameter / circumference of the rear tire?

General input is appreciated. Information specific to the DB-1 would also be great.

I have to say that given all of the additional member input I am starting to lean towards the Toyo.

Thanks.

John

[John LaRue]

JRII makes several very good points. One of the things that I see from the response to date is that the majority are Regional competitors. Given that the Regions can adopt their own tire rules I am not certain this proposal will have much, if any, impact upon the Major's participation level.

• Are tires the only thing keeping people away from Major events?
• Are you lobbing your local SCCA Regions for spec tire rules?
• Have you lobbied for spec tires in the past?
• What is your local Region's response?
• Will suddenly Regional participants begin to travel to Major events in addition or in lieu of their Regional events?