Poll: FF SPEC TIRE

[Tom Valet]

I wrote to the CRB several months ago and have just written again. #16085.

I respectfully asked that they not take another year to study this issue but that they do something for 2015.

[Raceworks]

#16087

Pushing for a 2015 date, which was also an option on the survey they sent, that I nearly deleted as spam, and then completed.

Publicly, my personal prefrences would be:

1. Toyo R888. The lowest cost option available. Seems to require minimal changes across all platforms from what's been said. I watched the video of the Canadian F1600 race, and they don't seem to be having any less fun for running on "street" tires.
2. Hoosier R60 "club ford" tire. Pricier than the R888's, but clearly cheaper than the status quo. I may have to make some adjustments, but my car is relatively easy to make geometry changes on, especially on the rear. It's a matter of shifting some spacers around. And honestly if it favors the old-school cars a little I don't think that's the worst thing in the world given what the bulk of club racers drive.
3. Hoosier R45 (or the old pro tires). Yeah, I know it's not on the list but they do last a long time for club racing weekends (one pro weekend has double the track time of a regional) and at least with this option you don't have to worry about someone throwing multiple sets of "gumball" tires on and walking away from you.

Like Reid said, I think waiting around for "unicorn tires" is a BAD idea. I say we go forward with the best low cost option and "business arrangements" be damned. This is a club that's supposed to support its members, not the other way around. If Hoosier or anyone else wants a piece of the action they can make a tire that actually meets consumer demand.

It doesn't seem like the new pro series tire does that, at least from what little information we've gotten so far. It's not so much the cost or the driveability that bothers me but the astronomical camber setting. Even on my brand-new modern chassis that's going to be tough to reach (especially on the rear) without carving some components up. Hopefully 3.5 was a misprint, or unique to the Mygale, or maybe later versions will have a construction that allows for less camber.

In any case I think it's best to move forward with what are known quantities and readily available.

[Bob Wright]

I have no idea if the following has any bearing on the new F1600 tires, but a number of people on the forum are spooked by the mention of large camber settings:

F2000 radials- we were initially guided to 3.5 deg. front, 2.5 deg. rear by Hoosier. Some people then experimented and tried as much as 5 deg. front. At the end of the day, if you look in the paddock right now, I think most people are somewhere in the 2.75-3 deg. front and about 2-2.25 deg. rear. That's generally achievable without changing suspension geometry.

Also, the Toyo is a radial tire. What do users set their camber at with the Toyo? Why wouldn't it be similar to the new Hoosier since they're similar construction (I think)?

The reality is we don't know yet since they haven't been optimized by the Pro teams. We'll know soon enough (February?). I think its premature to rule out a tire that in fact may be everything we're looking for before its ever been vetted on the racetrack in competition. It certainly caught everyone at the test by surprise.

[marshall9]

"Also, the Toyo is a radial tire. What do users set their camber at with the Toyo? Why wouldn't it be similar to the new Hoosier since they're similar construction (I think)?"



1.5 - 2.0 front and .8-1.2 rear.

On Toyos, all increased camber does is wear the tires out quicker.

It appears the Hoosier radial is a full racing tire and bears no similarity to the Toyo DOT radials.

[Bob Wright]

Thanks for the camber info. I guess Hoosier would have to answer the construction question.

[teamwalker]

OK, enough talk! Letter sent to CRB #16098. We need a moderately priced tire with a long life. And I stress long life. This is supposed to be an entry level class, and a long life tire is just what we need. Even better if it is also the rain tire! Toyo R888 is my vote.

Craig Walker

[Raceworks]

I have no idea if the following has any bearing on the new F1600 tires, but a number of people on the forum are spooked by the mention of large camber settings:

F2000 radials- we were initially guided to 3.5 deg. front, 2.5 deg. rear by Hoosier. Some people then experimented and tried as much as 5 deg. front. At the end of the day, if you look in the paddock right now, I think most people are somewhere in the 2.75-3 deg. front and about 2-2.25 deg. rear. That's generally achievable without changing suspension geometry.

Also, the Toyo is a radial tire. What do users set their camber at with the Toyo? Why wouldn't it be similar to the new Hoosier since they're similar construction (I think)?

The reality is we don't know yet since they haven't been optimized by the Pro teams. We'll know soon enough (February?). I think its premature to rule out a tire that in fact may be everything we're looking for before its ever been vetted on the racetrack in competition. It certainly caught everyone at the test by surprise.

Oh, I certainly agree we'll know more about what it needs come February, especially since I'll be at PBIR for the exhibition race / tire test.

On the construction, my understanding is that the only thing borrowed from the Hoosier DOT tire was the "tread pattern" (which is really just two grooves). Judging from the lap time difference I'd say the construction is closer to the radials used in F2000 (which are also getting an update). While I remember the Hoosiers being faster than the RA-1 Toyos and Kumho Victoracers back when I ran tin-tops, they definitely weren't 4 seconds faster. The R888 is a faster tire than the RA-1, and the track records I set on Hoosiers in NASA's H1 class got knocked down by guys on the Toyos.

Still, even if the camber change isn't as radical I'm still not convinced the pro tire is the best fit for club racing. Let's say for the sake of argument the setups are comparable, they're equally consistent, and they last just as long. The Toyos are still over $300 cheaper a set, and a bargain-basement racer can use "rains" in the dry, which you can't do with the Hoosiers.

Now, if the new Hoosier lasts 50% longer than the R888, THEN maybe I'll reconsider.

[BWC54]

Still, even if the camber change isn't as radical I'm still not convinced the pro tire is the best fit for club racing. Let's say for the sake of argument the setups are comparable, they're equally consistent, and they last just as long. The Toyos are still over $300 cheaper a set, and a bargain-basement racer can use "rains" in the dry, which you can't do with the Hoosiers.

The question was what tire do you want to see for the Majors. Do you really want a tire for the Majors that make FF slower than F500/F600? I'm sure the guys that run and sell F500/F600 cars do.

[SEComposites]

I'm not sure that's a problem. FC is faster than FF because it's a different class. F500 might be faster but personally I don't care, because it's different class. I'm not sure there are too many people that would switch from FF to F500/600. Any newcomers might possibly choose to but I still think they are peculiar enough still to be a niche class. I'd rather race in a 20 car FF field on treaded tires (or semi-slick if that sounds better) than a second or two a lap faster with a handful cars on slicks which is what seems to be the case right now.

[BWC54]

I'd rather race in a 20 car FF field on treaded tires (or semi-slick if that sounds better) than a second or two a lap faster with a handful cars on slicks which is what seems to be the case right now.

I think the difference between the new Hoosier and the Toyo is more than a second or 2. We will see this spring. I think SCCA should do something like the Pro series does and limit tires per weekend. Guys were putting a new set of tires on for each race in a Majors weekend. If they could race the entire weekend on one set it would cut their tire bill 50%. With the time and travel required for Majors it's not the place for the low budget racer anymore.

[Brian C in Az]

The question was what tire do you want to see for the Majors. Do you really want a tire for the Majors that make FF slower than F500/F600? I'm sure the guys that run and sell F500/F600 cars do.

Your assumption is based upon incorrect information that the people who want to keep the Hoosier tires keep repeating. They have said the Toyo tire are 4 to 5 seconds per lap slower, but that is completely false. People that have raced both say the Toyo is much quicker than that.

I find it interesting that those people make up these various lies and type this wrong information to keep the status quo. Maybe they should disclose how many free tires (or how much sponsorship money) that they have receieved in the past 5 years, so everyone can see their true motivation for fighting any change.

Everyone that has raced on both say the set up change is minimal and easy. Everyone that has raced on both say that the two brands do perform differently, but it is not a displeasant difference. No one that has raced on both claim that their Formula car now drives like a rally car nor that is it noticeably slower. Several lap records on Hoosier tires have been beaten and replaced by cars on the treaded Toyo R888 tires. If the records are being beaten, then tell me, how can the tire be slower???

[BWC54]

Several lap records on Hoosier tires have been beaten and replaced by cars on the treaded Toyo R888 tires. If the records are being beaten, then tell me, how can the tire be slower???

Show me a track where an FF majors has run that a Toyo tired car has broken the FF lap record.

[Brian C in Az]

With the time and travel required for Majors it's not the place for the low budget racer anymore.

Better to keep the status quo of a handful of cars and see the sport die a slow death than make it affordable, have 20 to 30 cars in a race and see the sport grow; as it has in every country but the US? Ironic, that the country with the most road race course has the fewest number of participants because of the stubbornness of a few to adapt to a better business model.

Foolish business model: Expensive tire which causes fewer people to participate. Eventually the sport dies….

Wise and successful business model: Lower the costs to race by switching to a tire that the majority of participants want to use which invites more people to participate and the sport grows by leaps and bounds. As seen in Canada, Australia, Ireland, the UK, South Africa,…….

[Tom Valet]

Your assumption is based upon incorrect information that the people who want to keep the Hoosier tires keep repeating. They have said the Toyo tire are 4 to 5 seconds per lap slower, but that is completely false. People that have raced both say the Toyo is much quicker than that.

I find it interesting that those people make up these various lies and type this wrong information to keep the status quo. Maybe they should disclose how many free tires (or how much sponsorship money) that they have receieved in the past 5 years, so everyone can see their true motivation for fighting any change.

Everyone that has raced on both say the set up change is minimal and easy. Everyone that has raced on both say that the two brands do perform differently, but it is not a displeasant difference. No one that has raced on both claim that their Formula car now drives like a rally car nor that is it noticeably slower. Several lap records on Hoosier tires have been beaten and replaced by cars on the treaded Toyo R888 tires. If the records are being beaten, then tell me, how can the tire be slower???

Brian, now you are the one who is being disingenuous. The Toyos are faster than the Hoosiers and have set lap records? Not if the old record was set by any decent driver.

We have driven on both. There is a huge difference in car feel and there is a big difference in performance between any Hoosier and the Toyos.

And for the record, I submitted my petition for a spec tire 4 years ago WHEN WE WERE RECEIVING FREE TIRES AT EVERY NATIONAL OR REGIONAL WE WENT TO. Despite the fact that we were not paying a dime for tires I still wanted a spec tire because the idea of paying for tires that last 2 sessions irked me and I felt it was not good for the class as a whole.

In the past 3 years at least nobody I know of is getting free tires from Hoosier unless you are the winner of a Pro race. Maybe they give a set at the Runoffs to the top team or two as thanks for running them, but they dont give em away like they used to since Goodyear pulled out.

The set-up changes to go to a radial, any radial, are not insurmountable but neither are they simple. But it is a "do it once and you are done" kind of thing. The worst thing that could happen would be for the Pros, Majors and Regionals to all be on different tire rules. That will kill the class faster than anything.

EDIT, since there is an accusation of conflict of interest: we ran Goodyears when we received free tires and have never had any tire deal with Hoosier. The only Hoosiers we ever received free were the prizes for winning Pro races.

[Brian C in Az]

Show me a track where an FF majors has run that a Toyo tired car has broken the FF lap record.

In one of the other recent threads someone posted that their tracks records were currently held by cars driven on Toyo tires. I will look for that post later today. Time to go to work.

Maybe someone else can find it before this evening when I get back from work.

[Peter Olivola]

Those charged with the responsibility to implement the proposal to reduce Majors classes will be looking at exactly this situation when making decisions.

I'm not sure that's a problem. FC is faster than FF because it's a different class. F500 might be faster but personally I don't care, because it's different class. I'm not sure there are too many people that would switch from FF to F500/600. Any newcomers might possibly choose to but I still think they are peculiar enough still to be a niche class. I'd rather race in a 20 car FF field on treaded tires (or semi-slick if that sounds better) than a second or two a lap faster with a handful cars on slicks which is what seems to be the case right now.

[Bob Wright]

Brian- the 4+ second time difference between Hoosier and Toyo was seen at the Hoosier tire test at PBIR last month (back to back). The current Pro FF tire and the new FF radial were comparable, with the radial turning slightly faster laps (Anders Krohn driving).

Note comment by BWC54- what tire do you want for the Majors Races? That's an important point.

[teamwalker]

I think the difference between the new Hoosier and the Toyo is more than a second or 2. We will see this spring. I think SCCA should do something like the Pro series does and limit tires per weekend. Guys were putting a new set of tires on for each race in a Majors weekend. If they could race the entire weekend on one set it would cut their tire bill 50%. With the time and travel required for Majors it's not the place for the low budget racer anymore.

I disagree with saying the "Majors" are not the place for low budget racers and submit that this kind of thinking is hurting the class. If I were drawing a line, it would be between the Pro and club class. To my thinking the Majors and regionals are all club racing. I see no problem with different tires for Pro and Club and believe tire expense is a huge factor impacting the number of drivers participating at the club level. This is why we need a lower cost, long life tire. I personally do not care if it is 2, 3 or 4 seconds a lap slower since we will all be on the same tire.

Craig Walker

[Bob Wright]

Not sure I totally agree. There has always been a difference between "national" and "regional" (read Major and regional) going back as many decades as I can remember. the national races always required more time, money and effort to be successful than the regionals. The regionals were where you learned the basics and could race very economically, the nationals required more. I think that is still true today, whatever you want to call them. The Pro level is another step up in prep and cost.

I support the Hoosier tire for both Club and Pro because of the potential economies of scale having everybody on the same tire. We don't know what the wear factor of the new Hoosier is yet , except I can project it will last a lot longer than the current club tires. At the Pro level the cars get at least 3 hrs of track time a weekend (at least 6 heat cycles) and need to have a tire last a good portion of that. How much track time does one get at a regional? I've been to some where one barely sees an hour, total.

The Toyo will outlast the new Hoosier; we already know that from the test and other emperical data. What we don't know is by how much until the Hoosier is raced for a while. There was some indication from the test that it may surprise everyone with potential durability.

[marshall9]

Your assumption is based upon incorrect information that the people who want to keep the Hoosier tires keep repeating. They have said the Toyo tire are 4 to 5 seconds per lap slower, but that is completely false. People that have raced both say the Toyo is much quicker than that

It depends on the track, assuming the same driver. It primarily has to with braking distances IMO. The first time I drove a FF on treaded radials at speed coming from sticky GYs, if there had not been runoff outside of the apex of turn one at Firebird East, I would certainly have crashed after using my normal braking point. The car would not stop, lol. I'd say 2 seconds slower there, and that is a short track with only two real heavy braking zones. at the end of straights from only about 90 MPH. On tracks, like Firebird main, where turn one is braking from redline RPM with a 24:24 4th gear ratio, and before the tower turn, I can see 3.5-5.0 seconds slower. That being said, who cares, if everyone is on them, the playing field is equal. You have to earn lap time reductions, you can't go buy them from the tire truck.

[Steve Bamford]

In one of the other recent threads someone posted that their tracks records were currently held by cars driven on Toyo tires. I will look for that post later today. Time to go to work.

Maybe someone else can find it before this evening when I get back from work.

Brian,

I did post some where track records on Toyo's but this is for Toyo's. Most slick tires will be faster with the same driver so I can not see how a Toyo could have lap records in an open tire series. Dunlops (treaded) were faster then the Toyo records for one of the tracks for sure, the others I can not confirm but likely. This is why I posted some where, maybe it was on the survey, that I do not believe in changing the rule to allow any DOT tire only be used. This will become tire of the week as there are differences between all of them.

Put us all on one tire, have ABC company make it (doesn't matter to me who ABC company is) as long it has 20 plus heat cycles with less then half a second lap time drop & cost approx. $600.00. There are tires available like this already. Some set up changes required but lots have done it so there is info out there to get it done.

[Daryl DeArman]

Put us all on one tire, have ABC company make it (doesn't matter to me who ABC company is) as long it has 20 plus heat cycles with less then half a second lap time drop & cost approx. $600.00. There are tires available like this already. Some set up changes required but lots have done it so there is info out there to get it done.

That makes too much sense.

[teamwalker]

I started racing in 1992 on the West Coast and I am not sure re. the comment about the differences between Regionals and Nationals. Yes, I understand that there were club racers who pursued a National track, but back then the Nationals were held in conjunction with Regionals. Although I was not pursuing a National Championship slot, I would always enter the National, along with the Regional, to simply get more track time. It was cheap track time because I was already there for the weekend!

It was also true that National competitors were beaten, or had great competition with the Regional competitors. Many times because of "home field advantage", but many times because the Regional drivers were just as competitive as the Nationals. The only difference was that the Regional drivers, for whatever reasons, only pursued a Regional schedule. A secondary benefit was that it made the National win better, because they earned their points against larger fields with hometown ringers.

I believe we should work to encourage more entries at all club levels. I would find it hard to believe that these stand alone Majors draw more competitors then the National/Regional split weekends did. I believe if you want exclusive weekends for limited classes, then you should move to the Pro level. To me that exists for Club racers who want to go the next level.

Craig Walker

[mblanc]

Here was my typical tire plan for the Runoffs - with no testing.

Practice/Qualify
wheel set #1 used tires cycle 3- use for practice day -hope you're chasing setup, not poor tires
wheel set #2 New R35 Qual #1 and #2
wheel set #3 New R35 Qual #3
wheel set #4 New R45 in case it's hot

Race Options
wheel set #5 grooved intermediate R25's
wheel set #6 Rains
wheel set #1 remounted with new scuffed R35 Race set (which means they've been on and off the car and wheels at a prior event)
wheel set #2 remounted new set of R25 in case it's really cold
wheel set #4 New R45 in case it's really hot

/\ /\ /\
THAT'S INSANITY
But, we were not going to be beat on tire strategy.

Yes, I have 6 sets of wheels, AND was still paying to mount and bal 2 sets at Runoffs, unless we were testing, then it was more.

If you think I'm crazy, I know a guy that won the June Sprints, used 3 sets of stickers that weekend, (Sprints is a SINGLE RACE, not a double). Plus whatever was consumed testing.

The reality is, currently, the pointy end of Majors grid spends lots more $ on tires than the pro guys do. The pointy end is using two sets minimum on a double weekend(+testing). This leaves a big disparity between the front, and the mid to upper midpack. Possibly most of those guys are there because they decide financially NOT to play such a stupid tire game. Not saying a spec tire will rearrange the order, but it sure should help the middle and back pack, stay closer. My thought process, some mid pack guys are just being outspent, and lots of back packers, are on poor used rubber to begin with.

Let's just all get on the same hard-ass tire, and race! Slip angles go up, braking zones increase, the best/stiffest chassis design is not such a differential, competitiveness should increase, lap times go up, but so what, it's all relevant: we race for position, not lap time. Plus F5 was already faster than FF at Topeka 6? years ago. For some of those reasons, is why I'm not for the new Radial, MORE tire grip is not what I think the class needs, we need less grip/more slip, and some common sense brought back to the tire bills.

[Bob Wright]

Once upon a time, at least in the NE US, Nationals were spectator events that drew large crowds on holiday weekends. I know that's long gone, but up until recently the Nationals and regionals were seldom held jointly, and in most cases the class structure at each was quite different.

I still think there's validity to having them separated- there needs to be a place to learn how to race and I think some of that has broken down. This is a whole nuther thread, however. My point only is on a regional level, tires should last quite a while due to limited track time.

[marshall9]

Here was my typical tire plan for the Runoffs - with no testing.

Practice/Qualify
wheel set #1 used tires cycle 3- use for practice day -hope you're chasing setup, not poor tires
wheel set #2 New R35 Qual #1 and #2
wheel set #3 New R35 Qual #3
wheel set #4 New R45 in case it's hot

Race Options
wheel set #5 grooved intermediate R25's
wheel set #6 Rains
wheel set #1 remounted with new scuffed R35 Race set (which means they've been on and off the car and wheels at a prior event)
wheel set #2 remounted new set of R25 in case it's really cold
wheel set #4 New R45 in case it's really hot

/\ /\ /\
THAT'S INSANITY
But, we were not going to be beat on tire strategy.

Yes, I have 6 sets of wheels, AND was still paying to mount and bal 2 sets at Runoffs, unless we were testing, then it was more.

If you think I'm crazy, I know a guy that won the June Sprints, used 3 sets of stickers that weekend, (Sprints is a SINGLE RACE, not a double). Plus whatever was consumed testing.

The reality is, currently, the pointy end of Majors grid spends lots more $ on tires than the pro guys do. The pointy end is using two sets minimum on a double weekend(+testing). This leaves a big disparity between the front, and the mid to upper midpack. Possibly most of those guys are there because they decide financially NOT to play such a stupid tire game. Not saying a spec tire will rearrange the order, but it sure should help the middle and back pack, stay closer. My thought process, some mid pack guys are just being outspent, and lots of back packers, are on poor used rubber to begin with.

Let's just all get on the same hard-ass tire, and race! Slip angles go up, braking zones increase, the best/stiffest chassis design is not such a differential, competitiveness should increase, lap times go up, but so what, it's all relevant: we race for position, not lap time. Plus F5 was already faster than FF at Topeka 6? years ago. For some of those reasons, is why I'm not for the new Radial, MORE tire grip is not what I think the class needs, we need less grip/more slip, and some common sense brought back to the tire bills.

Can I get an AMEN !
I haven't heard of anyone not wanting to race in the Indy 500, because they had no chance at Arie's Q record........it's about being faster than everyone else on that day. Treaded radials will give everyone else a chance to be that guy for a whole lot less money. I have raced on treads off and on in FF out here since 2006. I have never heard in the paddock, someone making the excuse that they were slower because someone else had newer tires, ever.

[SEComposites]

Here was my typical tire plan for the Runoffs - with no testing.

Practice/Qualify
wheel set #1 used tires cycle 3- use for practice day -hope you're chasing setup, not poor tires
wheel set #2 New R35 Qual #1 and #2
wheel set #3 New R35 Qual #3
wheel set #4 New R45 in case it's hot

Race Options
wheel set #5 grooved intermediate R25's
wheel set #6 Rains
wheel set #1 remounted with new scuffed R35 Race set (which means they've been on and off the car and wheels at a prior event)
wheel set #2 remounted new set of R25 in case it's really cold
wheel set #4 New R45 in case it's really hot

/\ /\ /\
THAT'S INSANITY
But, we were not going to be beat on tire strategy.

Yes, I have 6 sets of wheels, AND was still paying to mount and bal 2 sets at Runoffs, unless we were testing, then it was more.

If you think I'm crazy, I know a guy that won the June Sprints, used 3 sets of stickers that weekend, (Sprints is a SINGLE RACE, not a double). Plus whatever was consumed testing.

The reality is, currently, the pointy end of Majors grid spends lots more $ on tires than the pro guys do. The pointy end is using two sets minimum on a double weekend(+testing). This leaves a big disparity between the front, and the mid to upper midpack. Possibly most of those guys are there because they decide financially NOT to play such a stupid tire game. Not saying a spec tire will rearrange the order, but it sure should help the middle and back pack, stay closer. My thought process, some mid pack guys are just being outspent, and lots of back packers, are on poor used rubber to begin with.

Let's just all get on the same hard-ass tire, and race! Slip angles go up, braking zones increase, the best/stiffest chassis design is not such a differential, competitiveness should increase, lap times go up, but so what, it's all relevant: we race for position, not lap time. Plus F5 was already faster than FF at Topeka 6? years ago. For some of those reasons, is why I'm not for the new Radial, MORE tire grip is not what I think the class needs, we need less grip/more slip, and some common sense brought back to the tire bills.

At a push you could have done that one one $600 set of Toyo's.
There are 59 voters in the poll in favor of Toyo's. That's a good number. Imagine if they were all in one region.

We need a long life tire that's around $600 per set. I think we all agree on that. It exists in the Toyo. Call it a semi slick if you don't like the treaded moniker. Increased braking distances and cars that move around a little more is a good thing for a junior formula. It doesn't mean the cars are uncontrollable or nervous to drive. They might even be more forgiving and allow some drivers to be closer in lap time to the front runners.

[TimH]

Increased braking distances and cars that move around a little more is a good thing for a junior formula. It doesn't mean the cars are uncontrollable or nervous to drive. They might even be more forgiving and allow some drivers to be closer in lap time to the front runners.

That's my experience. And maybe what some folks don't like...

[John LaRue]

FWIW keep in mind that in Club you will be in mixed run groups unlike the various pro series. With the Toyos lap times will certainly fall well below the F500 class so plan accordingly.

[Steve Bamford]

FWIW keep in mind that in Club you will be in mixed run groups unlike the various pro series. With the Toyos lap times will certainly fall well below the F500 class so plan accordingly.

What is the issue with that? Gets them out of the mix for most guys then. The hope of inexpensive spec tire is to get more cars out which is the only chance of ever having a chance to get a single run group.

[Jnovak]

At this years Runoffs there was ONE FF faster than our F500 and that was by .09 sec as I remember.

So being slower than the F500s really does not mean much.

[Tom Valet]

That's my experience. And maybe what some folks don't like...

When I get home I will see if I can post video of Bill's first race lap on Toyo's at Montreal this past June. He can laugh about it now, but he came into the last turn after the back straight and braked where he normally would brake. Understand, he had very limited laps on the Toyos at that point. He went sailing past the car he wanted to pass (the Series organizer) and missed the turn, marking up all the pretty paint that Bernie had ordered they stay off of. Made the same move on lap two after he learned his lesson.

So yes, braking distances with the Toyos is longer. And they affect handling in other ways (they are heavy and carry a lot of momentum at speed, affecting your steering). None of this is a reason not to use the Toyos as a spec tire, everyone just needs to understand they are different than pure race tires however.

[Dave Woodmancy]

What is the issue with that? Gets them out of the mix for most guys then. The hope of inexpensive spec tire is to get more cars out which is the only chance of ever having a chance to get a single run group.

I suppose this could become an issue if class consolidation becomes real, and F5/6 and FF are combined in some manner.

Which really is all the more reason to pick a tire, pray it improves car counts, and use strength in numbers..

[Steve Bamford]

I have yet to hear anyone who raced on the Toyo's say they are against them as a spec tire. I do hear a lot from people who haven't run on them in these threads. If was the one or group of individuals within the SCCA trying to make a call on what spec tire I am sure I would have to put slightly more weight on those who have run this type of tire verses those that havent.

To Tom's post above, yes there are some differences, there are differences from the R45's that Bill ran previously. There are differences between R45's, R25's, R35's, , Goodyears, Dunlops, American Racers, Toyo's, etc. I believe I have run on everyone of these tires over a 3 or 4 year period and have been able to adapt to all of them with excellent results on many of them. We can all adapt easily to whatever choice is made.

[alangbaker]

I own and race a Van Diemen RF89 in Vancouver, BC (mostly with the SCCBC but hopefully with the SCCA next season at least a little bit) and the FF competitors up here have a gentlemen's agreement to use American Racers to control our costs. And in all likelihood, switching to Toyos might actually (and slightly) increase our tire costs...

...but I'm still so in much in favour of the concept of the spec tire for FF that I just wrote the CRB.

#16123

[Raceworks]

The question was what tire do you want to see for the Majors. Do you really want a tire for the Majors that make FF slower than F500/F600? I'm sure the guys that run and sell F500/F600 cars do.

They're already faster at some tracks, and barely slower than us on others. At other venues like Sebring, or Daytona or Barber I doubt 3-4 seconds is going to matter given how huge the time differentials are.

They're apples & oranges anyway. F500 / F600 are basically go-karts on steroids which is why they cost half as much as an FF. They look like lots of fun drive provided you have iron wrists and a rubber spine. I'm not a huge fan of chain-drives either, mostly because I have an irrational fear that the chain will become a spinning chainsaw blade of death if it breaks. My point is that lap times aren't the only things people look at when buying a car.

What do tires cost on F5 / F6 and how often do you have to get new ones to run up front in the Majors tour anyway?


Right now the problem with the Majors tour is that when you divide total season costs by hours on-track, it's the most expensive per hour for racing FF cars. Without testing, you get 3 hours track time per pro race, and 2 hours per Majors race (give or take 10 minutes depending on the exact weekend schedule).

When I total up entry fees and my retail arrive & drive pricing, and tires. This is what I get:

• F1600 pro series, 6 new tires per weekend, $2,515 per hour.
• Southeast Majors tour, 4 new tires per weekend, $2,880 per hour.
• Southeast majors tour, June Sprints, & Runoffs, 4 new tires per weekend, $3,000 per hour.

Note that the majors tour figures assume trying to stretch a set of R430 Goodyears or R45 Hoosiers over both races. If you push the envelope of burning through two sets of gumballs the Majors tour goes up to a whopping $3,380 per hour, or over 1/3 more expensive than the allegedly more costly pro racing series.

Going to Toyos could drop that cost to something comparable could get the Majors hourly cost down to or below the pro series.

[SEComposites]

What would be useful at this juncture is some idea from the Canadian pro seties guys on their tire consumption/track time during a race weekend.

[Steve Bamford]

They're already faster at some tracks, and barely slower than us on others. At other venues like Sebring, or Daytona or Barber I doubt 3-4 seconds is going to matter given how huge the time differentials are.

They're apples & oranges anyway. F500 / F600 are basically go-karts on steroids which is why they cost half as much as an FF. They look like lots of fun drive provided you have iron wrists and a rubber spine. I'm not a huge fan of chain-drives either, mostly because I have an irrational fear that the chain will become a spinning chainsaw blade of death if it breaks. My point is that lap times aren't the only things people look at when buying a car.

What do tires cost on F5 / F6 and how often do you have to get new ones to run up front in the Majors tour anyway?


Right now the problem with the Majors tour is that when you divide total season costs by hours on-track, it's the most expensive per hour for racing FF cars. Without testing, you get 3 hours track time per pro race, and 2 hours per Majors race (give or take 10 minutes depending on the exact weekend schedule).

When I total up entry fees and my retail arrive & drive pricing, and tires. This is what I get:

• F1600 pro series, 6 new tires per weekend, $2,515 per hour.
• Southeast Majors tour, 4 new tires per weekend, $2,880 per hour.
• Southeast majors tour, June Sprints, & Runoffs, 4 new tires per weekend, $3,000 per hour.

Note that the majors tour figures assume trying to stretch a set of R430 Goodyears or R45 Hoosiers over both races. If you push the envelope of burning through two sets of gumballs the Majors tour goes up to a whopping $3,380 per hour, or over 1/3 more expensive than the allegedly more costly pro racing series.

Going to Toyos could drop that cost to something comparable could get the Majors hourly cost down to or below the pro series.

Sam,

Put the weekend costs in there if they were using Toyo's, lets use 20 heat cycles as the number for them as that is what we have put the min drop off at. I just want to know how big a difference there is.

Also I have run many Majors and the tire count is double what you have put in there if you want to be competitive with the front guys. Marc backs my numbers up based on his post above. Would it be possible to post those numbers verses a 20 plus $600 per set tire.

[Steve Bamford]

What would be useful at this juncture is some idea from the Canadian pro seties guys on their tire consumption/track time during a race weekend.

I think we listed that before on other threads. Two to Three race weekends with a full test day each weekend. Test days are 2.5 or 3 hours of track time. Race weekends are just under 2 hours I think of track time. Others can verify or correct me on these numbers but this is what I can think of off the top of my head. Mid pack guys run much longer on them, some an entire season...these are what we have done & have had pole position, lap records and won on tires of these ages. No way this could be done in SCCA without stickers or scrubbed tires with current open tire rules.

[Swift17]

............

http://www.crbscca.com/ I'll start.

Letter #16035 in favor of the current Hoosier R60.

[EMPHASIS ADDED] The HOOSIER R60 is already the perfect choice, and CURRENTLY MEETS REASONABLE CRITERIA.

1-it's already produced
2-it has support at the track
3-tried and true product, for a couple decades in CFF
4-Contingency programs from Hoosier in past are good, no doubt in future also.
5-It lasts 20 cycles
6-It's a true slick
7-It's hard enough you don't need goofy tire marking rules
8-It's not such a huge leap from current NO TIRE RULE, to a spec slick, but it sure would save the $$$$
9-Sizes are right, (designed for use on cars in the USA market this was added)
10-quality American tire company, with no supply issues /\ above would be my criteria list.


....

Let's just all get on the same hard-ass tire, and race! Slip angles go up, braking zones increase, the best/stiffest chassis design is not such a differential, competitiveness should increase, lap times go up, but so what, it's all relevant: we race for position, not lap time. Plus F5 was already faster than FF at Topeka 6? years ago. For some of those reasons, is why I'm not for the new Radial, MORE tire grip is not what I think the class needs, we need less grip/more slip, and some common sense brought back to the tire bills.

Originally Posted by Swift17 THANK YOU MARC FOR TODAY'S "TOP TEN" LIST and dare I say the ANSWER --- Candidly, I have NEVER EVER heard any reasonable let alone rational argument not to use them (R60s and still waiting) BUT then wonders never cease so .....