Poll: FF SPEC TIRE

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

Sorry, I know instantly how ridiculous that reads, must be the holiday season making me all mary popppins happy.......

Clearly, Rand is into the Eggnog already and not drinking strait from the carton.

[Tom Valet]

Thanks for clarifying Mike.

I suppose in theory you could have an open tire rule that specifies the minimum "hardness" of a tire to be eligible, but I cant imagine how that would be policed.

In my opinion any open tire rule increases costs or at least doesnt keep costs as low as they can be. Only a single specified tire can truly be delivered at the lowest cost, either because you choose a "street" tire like the Toyo or you have a tire manufacturer like Hoosier deliver a tire that doesnt have to be designed to be the fastest tire around because that tire is not competing against any other tire and they can take advantage of volume production and pricing.

[Steve Bamford]

Thanks for clarifying Mike.

I suppose in theory you could have an open tire rule that specifies the minimum "hardness" of a tire to be eligible, but I cant imagine how that would be policed.

In my opinion any open tire rule increases costs or at least doesnt keep costs as low as they can be. Only a single specified tire can truly be delivered at the lowest cost, either because you choose a "street" tire like the Toyo or you have a tire manufacturer like Hoosier deliver a tire that doesnt have to be designed to be the fastest tire around because that tire is not competing against any other tire and they can take advantage of volume production and pricing.

Agreed 100%. Don't get back into tire of the week games again. Different constructed tires will wear at different rates and also produce different lap times. I thought the goal of spec tire was to put everyone on the same tire and save everyone money?

Mike, do you think the series you ran for many years would have cost competitors more or less if there was an open tire rule? There is also a limited tire count per event, don't you think that was a benefit as well?

[DaveW]

Thanks for clarifying Mike.

I suppose in theory you could have an open tire rule that specifies the minimum "hardness" of a tire to be eligible, but I cant imagine how that would be policed...

Just to throw another monkey wrench into the works...

Even if you could properly measure and enforce hardness, just having the same hardness does not ensure that tires will a) last the same length of time, b) be equally fast, c) make the playing field more level, etc., even on one single track under similar conditions. Then throw in different track surfaces and track configurations, and it's even more of a mess. It's kind of like making different engines equivalent with maps, restrictors, etc. It's just not that simple.

On top of that, you should sometime research how hard it is to read hardness with a durometer (the commonly used tool) and get consistent results even if the person doing it and the rubber remain the same. For instance, a thicker tread or piece of rubber will read lower than a thinner one because there is less rubber to deflect in the thin one, making the thicker one appear softer. Even how fast you take the reading will influence the result. And, of course there is temperature, softening the rubber when it is warm.

Bottom line, IMO, is that hardness is not a very good way of making tread compounds equal. And, I have not even mentioned tire construction variables.

IMO, only a single spec tire will come close to "leveling the field."

[swiftdrivr]

I was quite a bit disappointed in Hoosier's "solution," but then, that may have been driven by Pro team desires, as opposed to club racer desires. Anyone know if this is the "last word" from them, for a CLUB tire?

Did anybody / everybody get the SCCA survey? I seem to have been ex-communicated. Any idea what will become of the data? [Snarky comments not required, but...]

[Dave Woodmancy]

I was quite a bit disappointed in Hoosier's "solution," but then, that may have been driven by Pro team desires, as opposed to club racer desires. Anyone know if this is the "last word" from them, for a CLUB tire?

I think there is some confusion regarding the current discussions for a spec CLUB tire, and what Hoosier came up with as the new PRO tire. While the discussions seemed to be intertwined here at Apex, they are really two different subjects. The Pro tire was designed for the PRO series, and their needs first and foremost. It would have happened regardless of what the Club chooses to do.

I don't think the current push for spec club tire is a complete coincidence, but certainly a separate issue. I wouldn't be too disappointed in Hoosier, its very possible the target audience for the new Pro tire will be quite happy with it..

[Tom Valet]

Jim, neither Bill nor I got tne survey and we both previously wrote to the CRB.

As for the new Pro tire, how can anybody be "disappointed" in it? We havent even seen it yet. Ok, the cost is the same as last year, but it is supposed to be more durable and consistent. Lets wait and see what the new tire is like before we pass judgment. I for one am very happy that Hoosier is willing to listen to us, willing to work with us, willing to produce a new tire that has most if not all the features we asked for (no cantilever, slick, bigger rear than front, longer lasting), frankly I dont know of any other manufacturer that has ever gone to the lengths that Hoosier has to listen to the FF racers and try to make things better. Things are moving in the right direction for the first time in a long time.

[Bob Wright]

Jim, the test was done for the Pro F1600 Series. The goal was to create a tire that was close to the same performance, non-cantilevered, longer lasting and costing no more. Using a radial puts the class on the same footing as every Pro series up the ladder. Hoosier accomplished that.

Is this tire appropriate for Club? Don't know yet, but I bet there will be a lot of information available long before the end of the 2015 season. The idea of having both Pro and Club on the same tire creates some economies of scale that would help everybody.

One last point- at the test the Toyo was about 4 seconds a lap slower in a 1:20 lap. That might mean something to some people.

[problemchild]

One last point- at the test the Toyo was about 4 seconds a lap slower in a 1:20 lap. That might mean something to some people.

Probably the 2/3rds of the F2000 grid that will now be slower than half the F1600 grid.


I, for one, am disappointed that Hoosier did not swing for the fences and deliver a Grand Slam tire that would have served Pro and Club racer alike as an obvious clear cut spec tire. Hoosier performance with Toyo price and durability! Although getting rid of the open tire rule seems imminent ..... just a case of how many years SCCA can drag it out..... we seemed destined to bicker over 2 or 3 options, and probably end up with an SCCA spec tire, and a Pro spec tire, and a non-SCCA industry standard Toyo spec tire. Of course, Hoosier could just stop making all the bias tires, and then we will have just two choices. Wouldn't that be a shrewd plan.

[steve zemke]

Thanks Tom

[swiftdrivr]

Tom,
Not to imply that I am upset with Hoosier, just expected a bias ply [no up front cost to switch] with either very significant improvement of durability or of price. The last didn't happen, the former is yet to be proven, and the up front cost to switch is real, if your car doesn't allow big camber. If I were building a CLUB tire, that isn't where I'd have gone.

[Tom Valet]

All good points Jim. Switching to a radial will require some change to your car, but it can be done easy enough. We ran tne Toyos last year in Montreal on our Swift and went through that process. And all the guys in Canada and those in Arizona have successfully adapted to radials. If a radial were to become the club spec tire the parts needed and set up info would quickly become available for your DB-1.

[Roux]

Is it possible that the survey went to known FF racers who had not sent in a letter to the CRB? they took our letters as input and then wanted to cover the rest of the stakeholders with a quick survey?

The club might have done the best thing and is not getting credit for it. Communication would of course take care of a situation like that

Steve

[Roux]

I hear Jim. All I can say is that after a few races the pain of the conversion will likely be washed aside. Case in point. I hated being told to pony up for a transponder when they first came out. I was really cash strapped and hated the mandated cost.

Then the aluminum head comes out and although not mandated I was way over minimum weight and went for it. As soon as I bought the bits and raced with them for the first time I was over the initial pain.

Steve

[John LaRue]

The surveys went out to people who have run in Major's events in the past two years. Topeka unfortunately did not have the ability to otherwise target FF participants. If you wish to email me I can try to get a survey sent to your attention. (no promises) jlarueatjohnblarue.com

Also, keep in mind that the Regions have the ability to do anything they wish concerning FF tire rules for regional competition; they do not need to wait on Topeka.

The constant back and forth about this issue does make one pause as it is readily apparent that any decision that is made will upset some of the participants. This fact certainly weighs heavy on the ultimate decision makers.

John

[Tom Valet]

Is it possible that the survey went to known FF racers who had not sent in a letter to the CRB? they took our letters as input and then wanted to cover the rest of the stakeholders with a quick survey?

The club might have done the best thing and is not getting credit for it. Communication would of course take care of a situation like that

Steve

Steve, the explanation I received was that the survey only went to racers who had entered a Majors race in the past two year.

[Steve Bamford]

The surveys went out to people who have run in Major's events in the past two years. Topeka unfortunately did not have the ability to otherwise target FF participants. If you wish to email me I can try to get a survey sent to your attention. (no promises) jlarueatjohnblarue.com

John

I think according to many on Apexspeed the survey missed many of us as two years ago I ran many Major events but I did not see an email to my attention. I have sent you an email now as you requested John. Thanks for posting that.

[Steve Bamford]

The constant back and forth about this issue does make one pause as it is readily apparent that any decision that is made will upset some of the participants. This fact certainly weighs heavy on the ultimate decision makers.

John

Agreed,

Good leaders have to make tough decisions at times that will not please everyone but is in the best interest of all...making tough decisions is what makes them GOOD.

[Roux]

If it went to majors runners from the past two years I should have seen it. I ran the Glen Major in 2013. I sent my letter to the CRB way back so I consider that they have my input

Steve

[stonebridge20]

Agreed,

Good leaders have to make tough decisions at times that will not please everyone but is in the best interest of all...making tough decisions is what makes them GOOD.

As of now, 3 people want status quo and 101 want a spec tire of some sort. The "decision" has been made. Now pick a tire and get on with it.

No,....I didn't cast a vote.

[swiftdrivr]

As a certified addict, if Toyos or Hoosier radials are specified, I will modify and proceed. However, I worry that others might be put off by the required modification to classic cars, rare cars, or cars without an off-the-shelf-solution. I doubt I am alone in feeling challenged if I was tasked with modifying my suspension. As I drive a common car, I suspect Prince or Germaine or someone with some engineering background and experience will design my part for me [to varying degrees of perfection]. If I drove a Royale, I would be more concerned. Having said that, all this presupposes that Hoosier has said it's last word on a CLUB tire, which is information not yet available to me. And although I don't think ANY tire change is going to get us back to 20 car fields, in my opinion a cost-effective spec tire certainly seems to be a big step in the right direction. Any of these options beats the staus quo, no matter how much I enjoy the current Pro tire's slip angles and reasonable predictability.

[reidhazelton]

One thing to add....

The new F1600 radial and it's timing has little to do with this specific issue, as has been said before. The F1600 series asked Hoosier to develop a tire FOR THEM, NOT CLUB, that met a specific set of needs THEY had. They asked it have longer life to handle 1 qual, and 3 full races. On the R45 some were sitting out laps and that was seen as counterproductive for a development series. Right on. They also felt it should be or radial construction, as all series up the ladder are now radials. Bias plys are yesterday's news.

For F1600, Hoosier seems to have hit a home run. Not only does it last long enough for a complete weekend in the F1600 series, but it is also just as fast, if not faster than the past bias ply tire.

Hats off to Hoosier for giving the customer exactly what they want. Oh, yeah. It is the same price too. Try and get that anywhere else.

Now that this tire is available, it is an option for club. Does it fit the demands of most of the competitors in SCCA? No - and that is to take nothing away from Hoosier. If Customer A wants a sports car, and Company C designs the ultimate Ferrari-killer for Customer A, but Customer B wants a luxury car, does that make the offering from Company C any less on target? No. Same here. Membership, as best I can deduce, has asked for a tire that will last 20+ heat cycles. The F1600 tire is not that.

Again, this is an option, and was not designed with the Club in mind - and it shouldn't have been.

[reidhazelton]

http://www.crbscca.com/

The time has come to end this - it is time for action. That is done through writing letters. Now. Today. If you voted, take 5 minutes to write a letter. I don't care what you choose, but it is time we do something. Your choice does not need to be from the above list, or can be in general; "I am in favor/against a spec tire". This has been going on for 5 years now, every year, in the exact same way. Over and over. If we don't act by writing letters, right now, we only have ourselves to blame for the future. After the letter process, SCCA will be forced to publish the letter writing event in Fastrack and make sure word reaches the membership that may not be on Apexspeed. Likely it will be a "what do you think". To me, this is the best way to encompass the most members. In my opinion, the only way this has a chance of happening is through membership. If you have a buddy who doesn't live on Apexspeed, let him/her know. As a class, we want everyone involved. I started the poll to give an open and transparent idea of what is desired buy a sample of the class. The choice is ours. Are we going to keep beating this horse, or are we going to take it into our hands, stop blaming SCCA, and do something ourselves? There are over 100 votes, and if all write-in, that is far more than enough to get this moving.

It is my understanding the BoD does not put nearly as much weight on surveys (we all know how easy those are to skew, even unintentionally....look at how many have not received the survey on here. I didn't). The BoD/CRB puts much more weight on letters than it does surveys, which they have become a bit tired of vetting. With that, everyone should write a letter, EVERYONE. If you don't drive an FF, you can still write in. A letter from a current FF competitor gets the most weight, then someone with an FF but not active, then someone who "may come out to play". Everyone should have a voice, make it heard. Even if you are just a bystander, feel free to take part in the process as an SCCA member.

Keep in mind, what we choose today does not mean we have to live with it forever. If a better option comes up, we can vote on that and write our letters. If we want to take 2+ years to develop our own criteria, send out an RFQ, test the tire, and then try to get that accepted we can do that in the future.

I challenge everyone to write a letter, and post your confirmation number here. You DO NOT need to tell us what you voted for, just that you wrote in.

I'll start.

Letter #16035 in favor of the current Hoosier R60.

[TimH]

However, I worry that others might be put off by the required modification to classic cars, rare cars, or cars without an off-the-shelf-solution. I doubt I am alone in feeling challenged if I was tasked with modifying my suspension. As I drive a common car, I suspect Prince or Germaine or someone with some engineering background and experience will design my part for me [to varying degrees of perfection]. If I drove a Royale, I would be more concerned.

As a general rule, we've found the older cars to be much easier to adjust into sufficient camber than newer ones are. They were, it must be remembered, originally designed for treaded tires with substantially less grip than anything contemplated today, and DOT tires tend to make them if anything more competitive.

[SEComposites]

Letter #16036
In Favor of the Toyo R888

[Steve Bamford]

# 16038

[TimH]

#16040, weakly supported Toyo but favored any spec.

[swiftdrivr]

#16039? in favor of a durable, biased ply, slick, spec tire of unspecified source or manufacture

Reid: thanks for pushing this. The end result has to be an improvement, I would think

[teamwisconsin]

#16044

[Dan Pyanowski]

Letter confirmation #16043 sent. I plan on running the F1600 Pro series as much as possible, but if there is also a spec club tire, I would run many more club events.

[steve zemke]

Hoosier R60, followed by the Toyo, then the Pro Hoosier.

[Jon Jeffords]

Letter sent.

[marshall9]

16054

[racerdad2]

Hoosier Toyo

[Roux]

Hoosier R60A first choice but would be happy with Toyo or any good alternate that is durable and cuts tire consumption

[Swift17]

.... The basic premise of a one brand Spec Tire in Formula F is long over due (Tom Valet's reasonable rant for years on this board) and a concept which is in play in, lets see, F1, IndyCar, (I know yellows, reds, black, etc. - not the point) Nascar, GP2, Gp3 (... shall I go on ?) and of this there seems to be here a virtually unanimous consensus.

I have no data on the amount of races those who responded to this poll have raced, say, the past two years BUT I can state from Experience that this year Jason and I were able to do five (5) Major's, Two (2) SARRC events, the SARRC Invitational and the FF45th [nine (9) weekends total] due in large part to significant (and I mean very significant) cost savings when we committed to GYs for the entire year - [and the next three Majors as well, .... then done]. I could bore you with $ data about how each weekend a set of tires last is equivalent to additional entrys, etc ....

I for one like the look of cars with, (lower and otherwise) and want slicks, of the sized designed for those cars currently raced, I don't want to re-engineer a car (modify suspension pieces, roll centers, etc.), I want to just tune it; Indeed, I want what Marc Blanc said in another thread.

[EMPHASIS ADDED] The HOOSIER R60 is already the perfect choice, and CURRENTLY MEETS REASONABLE CRITERIA.

1-it's already produced
2-it has support at the track
3-tried and true product, for a couple decades in CFF
4-Contingency programs from Hoosier in past are good, no doubt in future also.
5-It lasts 20 cycles
6-It's a true slick
7-It's hard enough you don't need goofy tire marking rules
8-It's not such a huge leap from current NO TIRE RULE, to a spec slick, but it sure would save the $$$$
9-Sizes are right, (designed for use on cars in the USA market this was added)
10-quality American tire company, with no supply issues /\ above would be my criteria list

THANK YOU MARC FOR TODAY'S "TOP TEN" LIST and dare I say the ANSWER --- Candidly, I have NEVER EVER heard any reasonable let alone rational argument not to use them (R60s and still waiting) BUT then wonders never cease so .....

And from a upfront racer .......... (with my thanks)

I'll start. Letter #16035 in favor of the current Hoosier R60.

I will respond following this to the CRB... and then I am out !

EJ

Edited ........

Tracking Number: #16059

[Garey Guzman]

Request for spec tire sent

[Will Velkoff]

Letter #16065 sent. Let's do this.

[emackey]

Letter #16079 sent

[Bob Wright]

#16083

And yes, I own a FF.