FF Spec tire rule - what to criteria consider

[TimH]

Thus far, the Toyo tire has more votes than ALL other choices combined. So even if you combine all the Hoosier choices, they do not come close to the support for the Toyo R888's
Time to move forward.

I tend to agree with Tom that Toyos just ain't gonna happen. I also agree with several posters that ANY choice is better than the current open rule. I feel really lucky to have a local group dominated by a benevolent dictator who made his decision thinking "Build it and they will come."

[Matt King]

I tend to agree with Tom that Toyos just ain't gonna happen.

What would happen if everyone just showed up at a race with Toyos?

[SEComposites]

What would happen if everyone just showed up at a race with Toyos?

Exactly. We have the SCCA's blessing to run our Toyo/Kent race at the ARRC.

[Steve Bamford]

What would happen if everyone just showed up at a race with Toyos?

Then everyone would be equalized on the same tire & would save a lot of money. The same would be the result if they all showed up on another hard compound tire such as the R60. It sounds like most agree to this based on this thread & others.

[Tom Valet]

What would happen if everyone just showed up at a race with Toyos?

It would be great if you could guarrantee that woukd happen, but you just know at least one person would not be on Toyos. No big deal, right, its just a plastic trophy? Except its not. At Majors, more is at stake. And even at Regionals, who wants to race for 2d?

[S Lathrop]

Years ago SCCA adopted a spec tire rule for FF that not only specified the tires to use but that you had to qualify and race on the same set of tires. It worked so well that the spec tire rule was dropped the following year but you were required to qualify and race on the same tires. That rule was dropped after one year as well.

Many of the arguments that are being made now are the same arguments that were made then.

We are going to get to see how the Hoosier Radial tire works this season in the pro F1600 series. There is a lot of testimony about the Toyo tires in addition. What ever gets done needs to be thought out very carefully.

Maybe we should think in terms of a class of tires, say DOT approved, to be used on FF and not a specific tire. SCCA may think they are entitled to some of the competitors tire money if they call for a spec tire.

I don't drive anymore but I will have to develop setups for my cars that make them work on what ever tire is chosen, if a spec tire is chosen. The last time I faced this problem was with the Hoosier radial tire for the pro F2000 series during the 2012 season.

[Alex Zeller]

Just in case anyone was wondering what the racing was like on the Toyo's ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxqw...ature=youtu.be

I plan on switching to F1600 / FF after this coming season.

Merry Christmas!!

[Raceworks]

Sam the comment about harder to drive was from the Hoosier information [less forgiving]. I am not opposed to short term expense for long term savings [but do you now how old I am?] but it makes a hard sell to folks who are just hanging on, or thinking about coming out to play.

I don't recall that being mentioned at the meeting, and now that I've actually read the press release I see what you mean. And yeah, the time frame is different for everyone, even those who are somewhat less old than others.

For the record, while I really do like what Hoosier is trying to do, I do think all around the Toyos might be a more cost effective solution for club racers, especially at the regional level.

[Raceworks]

The answer to #4 is incorrect. You can EASILY monitor/police shaving by measuring the tread with a $5 tread depth gauge. Simply state all tires must start with 4/32" (or whatever number you wish) at the beginning of the weekend (or at tech inspection). A very simple process.

Shaving is not something that anyone on the club level will be able to perform at the track.

Since the Toyo R888 start with 6/32" new, the comment in #3 is mostly inaccurate regarding squirm and over heating.

Sorry, I should have started # with "Beyond having a minimum tread depth rule." Obviously you can enforce a minimum tread depth, but you're still not going to

Also, keep in mind that as I said before my experience with Toyos is based on the RA-1's we ran in endurance racing in the late 1990's. From Steve's comments & others running the R888's there doesn't seem to be much benefit on shaved vs. full tread depth tires on FF cars.

There were also a couple years we ran on a Toyo Z-rated street tire in World Challenge. If you want some info on how bad an idea that was I'll be happy to elucidate.

[Raceworks]

Hoosier F1600 Radial
Pros: (assumed, based on testing feedback)
-Currently Exists
-Same performance as currently available
-Longer lasting than current, but not as long as 20 cycles.
-Slick (no shaving dilemma)
Cons:
-Does not double as a rain tire (****Also, if we have a radial wet tire and a bias ply rain, I see that as a big issue. It's not an easy change on many cars to go from one to the other in the time allowed in a last minute tire change.)
-Same price as current
-Will require substantial re-engineering on some cars
Unknowns:
-A lot I assume.

I thought they were making matching rains in the same construction? Or did I get that wrong, too?

[Max Power]

I think tire shaving is a non-issue. Relatively speaking, if shaving the Toyo gives you an extra, say, 0.5 second advantage, it's no different than someone buying sticker R60's every weekend for a relatively similar advantage. So by comparison, I don't think shaving is significant enough concern to rule out the Toyo. But hey, at least we're talking about marginal advantages to be gained by spending more than the next guy, compared to the current state of affairs.

Another non-issue is that setup changes will be needed. I don't buy the whole sky-is-falling argument that our cars in the U.S. will suddenly become undriveable bricks with treaded tires. Have you seen the Canadian or Arizona series?

Again, by comparison, haven't a whole bunch of guys invested THOUSANDS in Honda conversions? Springs are what, $50/pair?. And since when are formula car drivers "done" making setup changes? This seems more like posturing than an objective criteria for comparison.

[John LaRue]

Keep in mind that the Regions have the power to adopt a spec tire.

Here is an example of what was done in one Region for FV.

1. FORMULA VEE (Regional Races Only): There will be two classes for Formula Vees in 2014. It is anticipated that this rule will apply for 2014 only.

FV - The General Competition Rules, Section 9.1.1.C will govern tire choices.
FVT - Formula Vee Spec Tire: FVT drivers must use American Racer tires, compound 132, by McCreary to qualify, race and/or receive regional points, trophies, and victory flag. Any FVT driver not using the required spec tire will be moved to the FV class.

[Tom Duncan]

Up until the 2014 season when it seemed reasonable to do away with it because of Runoffs mania the San Francicso region had a FF spec tire rule in place since the 2007 season. It started with a single tire, the Goodyear R430, and it definately improved things over the ubiquitious GY160. The rule then morphed into a group of tires you could choose from, all medium to harder compounds (GY430, GY475, Hoosier R60a, American Racer AR133) with the last iteration including the Hoosier F1600. It all worked quite well, even some of the nay-sayers (in one case a driver quit the class because of the spec tire rule but then came back) came around and agreed it worked well and was a good thing.

Unfortunately our region RE and Board have decided we don't need a spec tire rule and said the open tire rule will continue, with no justification. A few folks upset here, for sure.

Off to Club Ford for me!

Tom Duncan

[marshall9]

Something that I have brought up before, but not recently, is the fact that a radial DOT tire like the Toyos also shortens the obsolescence of other items. By this, I mean brake pads, heims, rodends, etc. The lower g's stress these items less, extending their wear and thus life cycles. This contributes to lower overall racing costs and less frequent catastrophic failures of these parts.

[Tom Duncan]

I can second Marshall9's comment, one of the folks in the know I spoke to (Steve Cameron or Jens Ploughmann, can't remember which) said the same thing about less wear and tear on the car with the Toyos. Would be hard to quantify though.

Tom

[old 59]

I have found the opposite regarding rod end life. We, our team, have had to replace rod ends more often. Not trying to fearmonger, I am a proponent of the Toyos. I just thought I would pass on what we have found. Still cheaper than new tires all the time.

[Tom Duncan]

Stephen, any idea why you have had higher maintenance? Any way to confirm the use of the Toyos are responsible?

Tom

[old 59]

We didn't wear them out as quickly when we ran the Dunlops?

I am just one guy with one car, YMMV.

[Tom Duncan]

Were your lap times quicker or slower than the Dunlops?

Tom