FF Spec tire rule - what to criteria consider

[Brian C in Az]

To my knowledge there is no restriction on tires in FF at this point.

The Toyo's were tested and the driver commented that it was like driving a rally car. From my notes, which are not perfect, they were about 4.5 seconds off the 2014 Pro Series spec bias tire.

Since the test was by Hoosier and to show how the new Hoosier is a better choice, I doubt that they put an effort in making it a fair test. They likely used new unshaved tires that had not had any heat cyckes yet to optimize tire performance, could have run the Toyo tires first when the track was cold, using too much or too little air pressure, unlikely that they tried to optimize the chassis setting for the Toyo. Conversely, they most likely rn the Hoosier tires when the track was warmer and after there was a little rubber on the track. They obviously tried several set up changes to arrive all the wway to 3.5 degrees of negative camber up front.

The only fair, unbiased test was performed by problem child as described here:

We did a back to back test with Toyo tires that were run for 17mins, then sat in an unheated/un AC WNY storage unit for 11 1/2 monthes, and a new set of stickers. No difference in time or driver feedback (once we got the glue, mold release, and nibs off). We subsequently mixed and matched with no negative issues, at times running tires together that were purchased over a range of 3 years. This was at lap record pace.

Any differences in grip seem to be short-term after relocating tires to different corners. It seems to take a few laps to rearrange the rubber pickup and wear pattern. While the Toyos may not be the best tire in the world, they are absolutely consistent, durable, and affordable

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66371

[Daryl DeArman]

Since the test was by Hoosier and to show how the new Hoosier is a better choice, I doubt that they put an effort in making it a fair test. They likely used new unshaved tires that had not had any heat cyckes yet to optimize tire performance, could have run the Toyo tires first when the track was cold, using too much or too little air pressure, unlikely that they tried to optimize the chassis setting for the Toyo. Conversely, they most likely rn the Hoosier tires when the track was warmer and after there was a little rubber on the track. They obviously tried several set up changes to arrive all the wway to 3.5 degrees of negative camber up front.

The only fair, unbiased test was performed by problem child as described here:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66371

In fairness, just because a test is unbiased doesn't mean it isn't flawed or leave a lot to desire.

If the goal is to show: look at what the tire is capable of without making any changes to your setup after it has sat for x number of months...then point made.

However, performing back to back testing only reveals what happens under very similar atmospheric/weather conditions. It does very little to show the performance potential of part A vs. part B unless both parts have had other things optimized to extract the most performance out of the package.

[DanW]

Yes, I know that. Point I was making is that I get the impression people think the R60 is just like the current tire sizes. I'd like people to be fully informed of all the pros and cons when making decisions, especially several have indicated they want a tire within 1 second of the current tire. Current R60s will not meet that requirement.

And yes, you are correct that we would all be in the same boat on the same tire. I'm good with that, just making it clear what boat we will be in.

Modern Fords are over-tired in the rear. Skinny rear tires being faster at many, many tracks is proof of that. Take an inch section off the front and it will be more over tired with the standard rear.

Just because it fits doesn't mean it is fastest.

Has anyone dynoed their car on a chassis dyno with Hoosier R60 cantilevered tires or American Racer tires? The tires grow in diameter substantially to give you a larger circumference and higher effective top speed. I think it also raises rear ride height too.

Regards,
Dan

[reidhazelton]

Since the test was by Hoosier and to show how the new Hoosier is a better choice, I doubt that they put an effort in making it a fair test. They likely used new unshaved tires that had not had any heat cyckes yet to optimize tire performance, could have run the Toyo tires first when the track was cold, using too much or too little air pressure, unlikely that they tried to optimize the chassis setting for the Toyo. Conversely, they most likely rn the Hoosier tires when the track was warmer and after there was a little rubber on the track. They obviously tried several set up changes to arrive all the wway to 3.5 degrees of negative camber up front.

The only fair, unbiased test was performed by problem child as described here:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66371

You are comparing two totally different tests with two different objectives.

Hoosier is a large asset to amateur and pro racing. Hoosier was asked to provide a longer lasting tire (read: less tire sales) for the same price, that has the same pace. They easily could have said no, but they didn't. They incurred expense in creating several sets of prototype tires, testing, and analysis. Go ask Toyo to come up with a tire and see what response you get, if you even get one. Suggesting their test was skewed is a bit disingenuous. Also, the amount of assumptions made makes anything that follows fairly baseless.

I have no doubt a commercially produced DOT, street-intended tire was far slower than a purpose built racing slick. The R45 compound is far, far softer than the Toyo. I am surprised it was only 4.5 seconds slower. I would have guessed more. The difference from a DOT track day tire to a slick is as similar as an all season tire to a DOT track day tire. Based on your understanding of the Toyo and your description, not having to shave the Hoosier and that it is ready to go from new (not needing to be broken in so-to-say) is advantageous if you ask me.

3.5 degrees is a very common radial camber angle. It doesn't take long to do a camber sweep.

[problemchild]

Since the test was by Hoosier and to show how the new Hoosier is a better choice, I doubt that they put an effort in making it a fair test. They likely used new unshaved tires that had not had any heat cyckes yet to optimize tire performance, could have run the Toyo tires first when the track was cold, using too much or too little air pressure, unlikely that they tried to optimize the chassis setting for the Toyo. Conversely, they most likely rn the Hoosier tires when the track was warmer and after there was a little rubber on the track. They obviously tried several set up changes to arrive all the wway to 3.5 degrees of negative camber up front.

The only fair, unbiased test was performed by problem child as described here:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66371

If you must criticize Hoosier, in any way, then criticize them for the choice they made. They had the opportunity to make a Toyo substitute tire, but instead chose to build a full-blown radial racing tire. They decided that was the best way to service their customers.

From concept on Labor Day, to built, tested, and confirmed in 3 months ...... is an awesome accomplishment. It is a tribute to the creativity, design, engineering, execution of the Hoosier brand that North American racers have come to expect.

In contrast, after decades of grumbling about tire costs, massive participation drops, several attempts at member-driven requests, recent overwhelming pressure from members and competing race formats, SCCA has reacted by having a management member ask people on this forum for input on parameters for choosing a spec tire. Phew, we should have spec tires for 2025 when the Concorde agreement kicks in.

Last August, there was clearly enough member support to adopt the 60A as an intermediate 2015 spec FF tire while a 2016 spec tire plan was developed. All it would have taken is some "will" from leadership. The SCCA reaction was as noted.

At this point, I am reserving any judgement. I was disappointed that they chose not to select the "Toyo-Yoko" type tire, but Bruce knows racing tires and the club racing market. With the new radials, conventional 60As, Toyos, Yokos, and whatever gets developed, I am very optimistic that the tire situation is in great shape. We now have viable spec tire options and viable engines.

It is time to build or buy FF race cars, then enjoy racing them.

[Gary_T]

Since the test was by Hoosier and to show how the new Hoosier is a better choice, I doubt that they put an effort in making it a fair test. They likely used new unshaved tires that had not had any heat cyckes yet to optimize tire performance, could have run the Toyo tires first when the track was cold, using too much or too little air pressure, unlikely that they tried to optimize the chassis setting for the Toyo. Conversely, they most likely rn the Hoosier tires when the track was warmer and after there was a little rubber on the track. They obviously tried several set up changes to arrive all the wway to 3.5 degrees of negative camber up front.

The only fair, unbiased test was performed by problem child as described here:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66371

My reading of that is that new and old Toyo's were compared - running at Toyo lap record pace, there is no mention of Hoosier, or any slick tire, in that comparison.

Greg, did I read that correctly?

[problemchild]

My reading of that is that new and old Toyo's were compared - running at Toyo lap record pace, there is no mention of Hoosier, or any slick tire, in that comparison.

Greg, did I read that correctly?

At this point, we are just getting leaked bits of random info. The Series is supposed to be releasing info to all teams at some future point and I am sure we will get a clearer picture at that time.

It was a Hoosier tire test to select a new Pro Series spec tire. The new tire obviously was not made to compare with Toyos but other Hoosier product, so whether it was 3 or 5 or 8 seconds per lap faster really did not matter and it does not make sense for them to have spent their money to determine that.

We now have another option that appears to be unique and disconnected to the other options.

[Tom Valet]

At this point, we are just getting leaked bits of random info. The Series is supposed to be releasing info to all teams at some future point and I am sure we will get a clearer picture at that time.

It was a Hoosier tire test to select a new Pro Series spec tire. The new tire obviously was not made to compare with Toyos but other Hoosier product, so whether it was 3 or 5 or 8 seconds per lap faster really did not matter and it does not make sense for them to have spent their money to determine that.

We now have another option that appears to be unique and disconnected to the other options.

Greg has it exactly right. The point of testing Toyos, if Hoosier did test them, was not to see if Toyos were going to be selected as a spec tire. The point was to allow Hoosier and the test drivers to assess the performance of a DoT treaded tire to see if such a tire was an option for Hoosier to produce for the Pro series. If the Toyo was 4 seconds a lap quicker, it still would not have been selected, but Hoosier might have considered making a treaded DoT tire.

[John LaRue]

The test was for the Pro Series; it has NOTHING to do with what is, or is not, adopted for SCCA club racing. SCCA will consider input from all FF competitors in making a decision as to whether or not to adopt a spec tire going forward.

FWIW the cars were not optimized for ANY of the tests at Palm Beach. Ride heights, cambers and pressures were set to recommended specs. There were minimal adjustments made to the cars as they switched from tire to tire (if necessary) to achieve a reasonable balance for testing. No camber sweeps were made on any of the tires to my knowledge.

The Toyo's were not shaved and were not bedded or otherwise prepared. They were stickers that were mounted and balanced as were all of the other tires which were tested. The Toyo's were run at 4:11 pm on day 1 per my notes. I don't have a track temp, but ambient was 86f. The conditions were pretty consistent on day 1 but for a brief light shower. Testing resumed after the track dried.

If in fact the street radials need to be shaved I would like to know: 1) how much this costs; 2) are the tires competitive if they are not shaved (how much quicker is a shaved tire); 3) what is the life of the tire shaved vs non-shaved; 4) How can tire shaving be policed.

[Daryl DeArman]

. If the Toyo was 4 seconds a lap quicker, it still would not have been selected, but Hoosier might have considered making a treaded DoT tire.

Hoosier does make a very good treaded DOT tire. I don't believe it is the right choice for FF though because of its' life:cost:speed ratios. That tire doesn't solve the problems being addressed, rather it is the best solution for those classes requiring the use of a DOT tire.

[Steve Bamford]

Let's get back to the question of what is wanted for the Club as the Pro Series is different.

My vote would be something that has minimal drop (less then half a second) for minimum of 20 heat cycles.

One tire that could be used as rains as well that way not only less tires required, less rims needed as well.

Obviously that leads to a treaded type tire. No shaving allowed.

A tire that would require little to no modifications to existing cars. That doesn't mean no set up changes, just that modifications to parts wouldn't really be required.

Pricing would be desired to be aprrox $150.00 per tire.

As far as track times go, it doesn't matter if it is faster, slower, same as current tires as long as it is a spec tire. We would all be on them & able to compete equally against one another as far as tires go.

[TimH]

It is time to build or buy FF race cars, then enjoy racing them.

[swiftdrivr]

Back to the original question:
Cost - durability - fun to drive / predictable at the limit
all 3 are of about of equal importance
Next
need to buy different springs, re-engineer, modify car would be a negative
weight [I am getting older, and don't need a blown disc]
Availability
I don't race in the rain, so I don't care if they are treaded [but I like the look of slicks. Not a big issue, obviously]

Sounds like the Pro tire has improved durability, without decreased cost [beyond that], and is harder to drive. It also will require that I purchase new suspension components and rework setups. I don't know about the weight, but it sounds like a DOT radial is going to be street-car tire heavy. Availability won't be a problem with anything Hoosier makes. We will still require rains, which doesn't affect me but does affect many. The speed difference of 1-2 -3 seconds [either way] makes no difference at all in my eyes, as it is the same for all if we are talking about a spec tire.
In all, the Pro tire will likely work well for the pro teams, with engineers and testing budget. It is a commendable effort on Hoosier's part, and may be as good as we will get in club, but it is far from what I would consider an ideal solution for the average club racer.
BTW: I was unaware the R60 had a different sized front. I will continue to use R45s, and make them last 2 weekends, as I did last year. Not ideal, but manageable.

[Raceworks]

If in fact the street radials need to be shaved I would like to know: 1) how much this costs; 2) are the tires competitive if they are not shaved (how much quicker is a shaved tire); 3) what is the life of the tire shaved vs non-shaved; 4) How can tire shaving be policed.

1. Basic tire shaving costs $10-15 per tire depending on the vendor. You can also use a tire trueing machine to cut camber into the tire, and this costs more.
2. I don't recall exact numbers from when we ran the RA-1's on the Del Sol, but as I recall it was less than 0.5 seconds. Shaved tires were faster in the dry, full-depth tires were much better for the raiin.
3. No real difference in tire life as far as I recall. In the dry the full-depth tread depth tires tend to squirm more and overheat, so they wear quicker than a shaved tire.
4. Policing shaving is practically impossible with the resources available to club racing officials. You'd need a single tire vendor that shows up for every event, and impounds the tires between events. You'd get your tires mounted before the first official practice session, then have to turn them in after the last race, get them dismounted, and get "travel tires" to load your car on the trailer with (as well as do your setups in between races).

To my knowledge the Pro tire is not a "street radial." They simply used the molds of the DOT tires as a basis with a unique construction & compound. The two reasons for this were probably 1) It was easy to do in a hurry and 2) They wanted to do away with the cantilever.

[Jon Jeffords]

I will continue to use R45s, and make them last 2 weekends, as I did last year.

Crap, and here I was contemplating making my R45's last 2 seasons!

My hypothesis: until my speed is enough to cause one end of the car to slide during cornering, the tires still have friction/life in excess of my skill level.

[Raceworks]

Sounds like the Pro tire has improved durability, without decreased cost [beyond that], and is harder to drive.

Agreed on the cost being a bit of a disappointment, as far as "harder to drive" nobody's going to know that until they try it. While I do have reservations based on experience with the old pro tire in F2000, I'm trying to keep an open mind until February. I will make sure to post feedback here after that date.

I don't know about the weight, but it sounds like a DOT radial is going to be street-car tire heavy.

Judging from the lap times, I doubt the weight is that much heavier. I don't see those kind of times being achieved with a tire that's double the weight of the current slicks. If you're talking Toyos, however, they are pretty heavy compared to similar-size slicks (17lb for the fronts & 20lb for the rears, versus 11 & 15 lb for the current slicks), but that's part of how you get the price down to $600 a set.

It also will require that I purchase new suspension components and rework setups.

That may be true no matter what spec tire they go with, unless they spec the R45's you're running now. The problem people often have with decisions like this is all they look at is the up-front costs and not what they'll save over say 5 years.

Let's say right now I need 3 sets of tires to do 4 SARRC weekends plus the SIC with no testing. That's $3,000 in tires a year or $15,000 for five years. If I go with the new Hoosiers let's say that allows me to cut a set of tires out each year which then drops me down to $10,000 for the same period, or if we go to Toyos I save a set of tires and they're 60% the cost or $6,000 over 5 years. Depending on what your specific upgrades cost you may have a net gain over time on overall costs.

Even if going to tire X doesn't net you any money, you may look at the fact you won't be racing against the guys with fresh gumball tires, or the possibility that if overall operating costs go down you'll get more entries and thus have more people to play with. Ideally we get FF numbers back up to where we either get our own run group or at the very least we don't have to run with the idiots in the big-bore cars that can't drive what they've got.

In all, the Pro tire will likely work well for the pro teams, with engineers and testing budget.

Some of us pro teams don't have engineers or a testing budget either.

I'd love to try to organize some open test days, at one of the cheaper to rent tracks in the area (TGPR, maybe Roebling or CMP) with about 6-10 cars. Maybe even get a tire vendor out there to just try out some of these options across different platforms.

[Dennis Valet]

For what it's worth, Hoosier stands to make more money by increasing car counts than it does by increasing tire consumption and turnover. Besides the fact that Bruce Foss really does care about the competitors and racing, there is some financial incentive for Hoosier to produce the tire that the competitors want.

[swiftdrivr]

Sam the comment about harder to drive was from the Hoosier information [less forgiving]. I am not opposed to short term expense for long term savings [but do you now how old I am?] but it makes a hard sell to folks who are just hanging on, or thinking about coming out to play.

[Daryl DeArman]

For what it's worth, Hoosier stands to make more money by increasing car counts than it does by increasing tire consumption and turnover. Besides the fact that Bruce Foss really does care about the competitors and racing, there is some financial incentive for Hoosier to produce the tire that the competitors want.

Hoosier stands to make more money by having 100 competitors buy 3 sets of tires a season than they do everybody switching to Toyos.

Hoosier wants to be involved in amateur racing more than Toyo does.

Hoosier has the roundy-round market to account for the vast majority of their revenue. It's the small business owners that are out there providing track-side support at events that we need to take care of. If we don't, they will go elsewhere...and then we are just a customer number to Tirerack.com with a website for technical articles for set up help.

[Jnovak]

Hoosier continues to support SCCA racing much more than any other tire manufacturer EVER. Just a fact of life from a biased and loyal to Hoosier club racer.

[marshall9]

Hoosier wants to be involved in amateur racing more than Toyo does.

How do you know this?

Hoosier continues to support SCCA racing much more than any other tire manufacturer EVER. Just a fact of life from a biased and loyal to Hoosier club racer.

As the dominant tire brand of choice , of course they do.

TOYO has a contingency program for off road racers, maybe they would as well for us, if we asked.....

[Jnovak]

Hoosier wants to be involved in amateur racing more than Toyo does.

How do you know this?

Hoosier continues to support SCCA racing much more than any other tire manufacturer EVER. Just a fact of life from a biased and loyal to Hoosier club racer.

As the dominant tire brand of choice , of course they do.

TOYO has a contingency program for off road racers, maybe they would as well for us, if we asked.....

Just how did Hoosier get to be the dominate tire brand of choice? This did not happen by accident but by working harder than any other company and by producing the best tires in the business.

[Mark Walthew]

I received an e-mail from tech@SCCA.com to complete a survey about a spec FF tire. Does anyone know if CF drivers are included in the survey? Last year I entered as an FF in a Major and a CF in non majors so I could have been selected as either one.

[swiftdrivr]

anyone else get that survey?I did not, that I know of.

[Germg]

oops

[Matt King]

Hoosier wants to be involved in amateur racing more than Toyo does.

I don't think this is even close to being an accurate statement. Toyo has made a big commitment to NASA as the spec tire in about half their classes, offering great contingency programs, and being the title sponsor of their National Championships.

[rick payne_75]

I got the survey early this afternoon.

[Daryl DeArman]

Hoosier wants to be involved in amateur racing more than Toyo does.

How do you know this?

Because that's Hoosiers' bread and butter.

Because Toyo Tire and Rubber has more revenue in a single day than Hoosier has had since inception....give or take...and their entire motorsports related sales is a mere sliver of that pie.

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't think this is even close to being an accurate statement. Toyo has made a big commitment to NASA as the spec tire in about half their classes, offering great contingency programs, and being the title sponsor of their National Championships.

Any idea what Hoosier has done for amateur racing over the last 50 years?

[Matt King]

Any idea what Hoosier has done for amateur racing over the last 50 years?

Of course I do, but that's not what you said. Unless you are sitting in Toyo's marketing meetings, you don't know how much they want to be involved in amateur racing. They have certainly shown a desire to be heavily involved by their actions. If you want to say that Hoosier has done more for amateur racing than Toyo, fine, then just say that.

Goodyear has done a lot for amateur racing too over the last 50 years, but it's pretty obvious how much they want to be involved right now. So I wouldn't kick Toyo in the teeth.

[marshall9]

Because that's Hoosiers' bread and butter.

Because Toyo Tire and Rubber has more revenue in a single day than Hoosier has had since inception....give or take...and their entire motorsports related sales is a mere sliver of that pie.

Daryl, you know I love you dearly as a friend, but this argument is not logical on your part.

[problemchild]

Tastes great ..... less filling!

Both companies seem very interested in being part of FF racing. They are the complete opposite of each other from a business perspective, and technical perspective. Neither needs to be dismissed as the lesser. Both will have their succinct role in our class. As much as we would like one common tire for FF racing on this planet, having several excellent options is probably better in the long run.

[Dennis Valet]

Tastes great ..... less filling!

Greg, you're bringing back some great memories. Unfortunately, now I have a mental image of Bruce Foss in one of those commercials. Thanks.

[Daryl DeArman]

Goodyear has done a lot for amateur racing too over the last 50 years, but it's pretty obvious how much they want to be involved right now. So I wouldn't kick Toyo in the teeth.

Point well made, and I'm not meaning to "kick Toyo in the teeth". Toyo may make a great tire for the class. Toyo may, for marketing purposes, want to be heavily involved in amateur motorsports today. However, if they decide tomorrow that they no longer want to be involved in that market segment they are gone. Meanwhile, "we" kicked Hoosier in the teeth.

As long as Hoosier is responsive to what this segment wants I think they should be given the nod. Just my opinion.

Daryl, you know I love you dearly as a friend, but this argument is not logical on your part.

Sure it is Marshall, if somebody makes 99+% of their revenue from one segment of the tire and rubber world and another makes .0001% of their revenue from that same segment. I believe it is logical to assume that the one making 99+% of their revenue is much more motivated to remain in that market. Motivated to be there and wants to be there aren't mutually exclusive in my book.

As much as we would like one common tire for FF racing on this planet, having several excellent options is probably better in the long run.

Perhaps.

[Steve Bamford]

We were not asked in this thread by John who we wanted the manufacture to be so lets drop that. No need to debate what the manufacture has or hasn't done for FF.

Hoosier, Toyo, Goodyear, Perelli, whomever...doesn't matter, whomever will build the tire the majority of FF drivers will agree to then lets go with that.

Correct me if I am wrong or not but isn't the US the only country running FF on slick tires? Based on the below link this shows Europe, UK, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand all running on these.

http://www.avonmotorsport.com/motors...ula-ford/acb10

We already know Canadians are running on the Toyo's & previously the Dunlops.

Are we all that stubborn to believe the SCCA has it right with allowing slicks is the correct way to go? I realize adopting a slick as a spec tire would be easier but when you look at everything going on around the rest of the world that already have a spec tire in place, do you think they all have it wrong? Or maybe, just maybe they are onto something.

[racerdad2]

I'm a big supporter of Hoosiers. That said, the Toyo's are already a known tire. For us 'Murcans', perhaps Hoosier can can make a Toyo clone ?

No need to reinvent what already works so very well...

[SEComposites]

I'm a bit biased here with my involvement in the Kentledge Cup for Toyo tired FFords and several seasons racing in the UK on both the treaded Dunlop and Avon tire, but I really do think club level FF's should be on all weather treaded tires. It might seem like it's not a big deal to not have to buy a set of wets but for the budget minded it is. In my first two years of FF I only ever had one set of wheels and was still able to win races in the UK. As mentioned above FF's run on treaded tires all round the world and by all accounts is a very healthy series. A friend of mine racing back home in the UK was moaning early this year because of the poor turn out for one race - 20 cars. I know the geography of the UK helps along with the cottage racing industry there - you can race most weekends with full grids. I never once raced in a mixed class race other than an open single seater race by choice.
Long life treaded tires will inject a much needed boost to FF I believe.

[swiftdrivr]

If I recall correctly, this thread was about criteria for a spec tire. As in, not a thread to bash and alienate the few companies willing to make tires for our toys.
Back on topic:

Cost [if it isn't the main driver, there would be no reason for this thread]
Durability / drop off in performance over time [related to cost, but also separate]
Predictable behavior at the limit / fun to drive
-------------------nearly as important as the first three---------------------------------
need to modify the car / buy new parts [big issue for many, especially if old or rare car. Whats it going to cost to get Prince to design and build a new suspension piece for an ADF, a Viking or a later Royale?]
------------------------------Less important--------------------------------------------------
Weight [as I get older, light wt becomes more of a virtue, and blown discs slow you down]
need for rain tires as a separate set / expense
Appearance [I like slicks, bigger in the rear] Obviously, the lowest priority issue

Any other factors I left out?

[marshall9]

In ProAutoSports EFF (Euro Formula Ford)
37 drivers competed on Toyos this year, average race 20 plus FFs. I don't have SCCA numbers, but will go out on a limb and say that this is higher than average SCCA Majors participation level. These numbers are from one local division, not nationally. 80 percent of the races held within 50 miles of Phoenix, AZ. It works, guys and gals. People want to race. Before Jens started this, participation numbers were in the handfuls for FF here. Change setup and gears, tires are equal and long lasting. If you want to run 8 weekends a year of 8 20-25 minute sessions per weekend, your tire budget will be 600-800 annually. Yeah, we are slower than those on any true "Race" tire, but all on the same tire , who cares? It's about position at the checker, not time, right? Isn't that the difference between racing and time trials?

[Steve Bamford]

In ProAutoSports EFF (Euro Formula Ford)
37 drivers competed on Toyos this year, average race 20 plus FFs. I don't have SCCA numbers, but will go out on a limb and say that this is higher than average SCCA Majors participation level. These numbers are from one local division, not nationally. 80 percent of the races held within 50 miles of Phoenix, AZ. It works, guys and gals. People want to race. Before Jens started this, participation numbers were in the handfuls for FF here. Change setup and gears, tires are equal and long lasting. If you want to run 8 weekends a year of 8 20-25 minute sessions per weekend, your tire budget will be 600-800 annually. Yeah, we are slower than those on any true "Race" tire, but all on the same tire , who cares? It's about position at the checker, not time, right? Isn't that the difference between racing and time trials?

Those are great numbers.

The F1600 Toyo series in Ontario average 25.2 cars over 7 weekends with the lowest car count being 22. All single class racing with those numbers, just think what could happen south of the border where you have a population 10 times the size of Canada & land mass that is smaller as well!!!!