JP can convert a Citation from FC to FB while taking a nap,
In the future I see some fast FC's giving midpack and backmarker fb's hell, with all this restrictor talk heheh. Just Kidding
JP can convert a Citation from FC to FB while taking a nap,
In the future I see some fast FC's giving midpack and backmarker fb's hell, with all this restrictor talk heheh. Just Kidding
1. Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki & BMW. All being developed, correct? What's the engine of the week? Right now its the Kawasaki - unless restrictors kill it.Originally Posted by JohnPaul
2. Any FBs out there for under $20k? Lots of FCs. Remember, my perspective is the new racer. Operating cost? Sure, pick your poison....they are all very similar unless you are changing motors frequently to keep up with the jones.... which is the impression potential FC converts get from reading. Latest motor, latest shifter, latest aero. This was about attracting drivers and I'm suggesting what is fantastic about FB (the creativity that can be had) is also what is detracting potential drivers.
3. Out west FC fields are 3x FB and 5-6x FE. SFO region may be a little different the CalClub or the northwest - but FCs rule the west.
4. I don't disagree. It is an OLD class and OLD tech. But it IS a stepping stone. For some the only step, for others maybe FB or beyond.
FC is a great class, I'm not trying to knock it but it's not an FB.
1) Take the bmw, Yamaha and Honda off your list. BMW won't run, Yamaha is obsolete (as of now) and Honda can't be run legally.
2) I don't know of one FC that is under $20k that would be competitive even in regional races.
3) OK
4) Whatever is the easiest stepping stone to get you into a car is the right decision. Seems like FC is yours. Do it and have fun!
"If you're not driving on the edge you're taking up too much space.... "
1. And the point is -> people are still looking to develop the next motor, the next gen motor.
2. I know of one for sure in the Runoffs. Qual 16th, running 14th after 3 laps before being taken out. Plenty of more expensive rides behind him.
4. Thank you - and that is the point isn't it.
The purpose of my post was to give an outsider perspective that there is too much to think about in FB. Especially just starting out.
A perspective isn't fact or right, but its not wrong.....
Last edited by BeerBudgetRacing; 12.02.14 at 7:30 PM.
Another outsider looking in. Perhaps helpful. A standard issue ECU. REV Limiter. Pick an Engine. Trying to find 'parity' disenfranchises nearly everyone.
It's a great class. Hope y'all can find your way forward.
"An analog man living in a digital world"
The problem with "pick an engine" is that the effective lifetime of a given ~1000 cc motorcycle engine these days is horribly short. Of course, you could still go the way of F500.... uh..F440/F500/F600 and "allow" specifically selected new engines as current engines die off.
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
^That's kind of a recurring theme...
Don't blame the equipment, LD200 is a fine box.
aaron
^ OMG, That would be TOO easy...
Not gonna do it, wouldn't be prudent...
Another outsider here.
I was just on the fence prior to my recent purchase between FB and FE. I love the sound of the high revving 1000cc bike motors, paddle shifting, some amazing styling and aero especially on the stohr's, and the possibility of being a really fun class for me.
I ended up getting an FE because it works better for me for me financially. The motors are sealed so I can't throw money at it to be faster than the next guy and they stay competitive for an unbelievable amount of races. I had to talk to multiple people in and out of the class before I could believe that a 3+ year old motor with 20+ races will more than likely be within a couple HP of a brand new motor.
I am still eyeing FB provided some issues (issues as I see them so just my personal opinion) are worked on.
The biggest issue I see is I don't want to spend $$$ on the motor/gearbox to be competitive. Could there just be a maximum HP allowance regardless of which manufacturer somebody chooses? Or have sealed engines but that brings a couple cons into the mix as well.
FB has a lot of exciting possibilities, but it appears to me that FB needs to decide what its identity is before I can decide it is for me. Is it a fun and exciting class that is relatively cheap to run that is as fast and cool as cars 2-3 times as much? Or is it something much less valuable to the sport?
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
There has been a lot of work that has gone into coming up with a system to limit the horse power of FB to what it is now and to try and equalize the performance of various engines. I would not be surprised if something happens for the 2016 season after everyone gets a look at how things go at Daytona.
FB is a development class and as such performance is going to continue to improve over time. I think that the gap to FA will continue to close over time, just because FB is way less expensive to do the development necessary to go faster. As such the class demands a high level of mechanical competence to compete in successfully.
The other development classes are FV, FF, FC, and FA. The spec classes are much better suited for someone who does not want to spend a lot of time working on their cars or do all the testing that it takes to make a car perform really well.
The FC I started with was $18,500. I was top ten at F2000CS my first time I ever raced in F2000CS and it was the first time I drove VIR. Honestly, I've been looking for a cheaper car, I bet I could still win regionals and go top ten at F2000CS events. Top five however is probably out of the question.
Chris Livengood, enjoying underpriced ferrous whizzy bits that I hacked out in my tool shed since 1999.
Dsmith,
Your choice to run a FE is probably going to be a cheaper/easier route than a F1000. The problem is that the FE does not offer near the driving experience a F1000 delivers.
I have driven Continentals, Mazdas, FF and Atlantics, but light weight motorcycle powered cars with downforce are truly something special. When you add Geartronics to the mix, there is NOTHING else in the SCCA I'd rather drive, period. The cars are just huge fun and satisfying to try and get the most out of them.
This class is not the outright cheapest way to race, but I don't know how you can go any faster and spend less than what we do.
For anyone that may be thinking about the class, feel free to contact me and I will be glad to answer any of your questions/concerns.
JRO
I agree with the notion that FE does not offer the same experience as FB. That was a big check mark in the "CONS" when trying to pick between the classes. I'm willing to pay more to run FB which is almost certainly a necessity, but I think I might have to wait until the engine situation gets sorted out. FE had more "knowns" and since this is my first time getting into open wheel racing I had to make the tough choice that was best for me at the time. I hope FB makes more sense for me in the near future.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
I'm predicting Daytona 'just might possibly' have a FB with a quicker lap than FA.
Scott Woodruff
83 RT5 Ralt/Scooteria Suzuki Formula S
(former) F440/F5/FF/FC/FA
65 FFR Cobra Roadster 4.6 DOHC
In the rain?? really hoping that is not the case, although a JDR or Novak conversion have proved to be rockets in a straight line, so anything is possible.
FA-FB
why wait till Daytona?
input from another outsider
Even though I don't have a dog in the hunt, there are many things to like about FB. Amazing noise, swoopy looks and they go like stink. Yes I know there are many prep shops out there who do not like them for the fragile nature of the motor etc., but when was motor racing ever cheap - really? Let the engines be what they are.
I like the fact that (as far as I understand) there are no limits on the development of the motor. If you want to use a 2-race rocket motor - fill your boots. On the other hand over 3 decades in FC I have seen "very strong" Pintos that clearly had more power than most. That's the issue with spec engines unless they are inspected regularly (viz. SM at last years run offs). Years ago my sons and I would identify some Pinto motors as those built by Larry Eagle (L. Eagle for short). In fact we were quite amused by this idea that we even thought about getting decals made that stated "Another L. Eagle motor" and slap 'em on the cam cover of our motors - but we never did. Instead we stick with a reputable builder, in this case Elite engines, who make excellent motors and we happily run what we have, as I believe most competitors do.
I fondly remember the days in F1 when you could have any motor you liked provided it met the legal capacity, the chassis weight limit and dimensions, and let the boys go at it. Look how successful the ACO have been with that approach - even in hybrids. The FIA should take a hard look at themselves.
JeffW
The "FE" spec motors are sealed unlike the SM motors. I got out of SM because of the whole engine fiasco. I was ready to run this year and decided it just wasn't' for me and sold my car then bought the FE. Shame because it looked like such a fun class with plenty of people to run with in the class. CHEAP TOO!!!
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
FE
i am begining to wish i was one of the passengers in your grandfather's car.
You cannot run race motors in FB. No mods inside the motor allowed except for a couple of minor reliability items. STOCK MOTORS.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
F1000
thanks J. I was waiting for you
If FB develops as the backers hope, I can see this class as being the must do before going to Indy Lights. These cars are almost as fast as any formula below Indy lights and are very demanding to drive.
They not only require good driving skills but you must be able to do the setup part of the equation as well. If the car is not just right, you change it until is perfect because the guy next to you on the grid may just have the his car setup perfectly.
This is unlike other junior formula cars where you spend your efforts engineering around things about the car you would change if you could. These spec cars are never perfect just better than every one else struggling with the same problems. The drivers never learn what a perfectly balanced car feels like until they get to something that goes 190 mph. And then he may be in over his head.
And you must care for the equipment in FB or you will brake it. What better skill to learn when a new engine and tranny is only $5,000 to $7,000.
One driver I worked with in Indy Lights blew through $20,000 of gear box parts in the first race weekend he drove. When you get to Indy Lights, the cars may look all the same but the setups and the demands on the driver's skills make all the differences.
I'm not saying that the F1 restrictions are right or wrong, but ACO/LeMans is a completely different deal. They have "balance of performance" on competitors to ensure close racing. That ain't gonna fly in F1.
When you have unlimited development, you end up spending unlimited dollars. Even with the limits currently in place in F1, teams are struggling financially.
I rather favor an open engine rule (maybe even more open chassis design), but with total (race-duration) energy consumption limits, ie so many BTUs worth of "power" (whether fuel or electric or whatever). That favors efficiency which is a great nod towards the ridiculousness of "green racing" as well as a fantastic engineering exercise, and might lead to a nice variety of powerplant designs. But, I fear that such a rule would be even more expensive than what we have currently.
Stamp of Approval
[QUOTE=S Lathrop;466024]If FB develops as the backers hope, I can see this class as being the must do before going to Indy Lights. These cars are almost as fast as any formula below Indy lights and are very demanding to drive.
They not only require good driving skills but you must be able to do the setup part of the equation as well. If the car is not just right, you change it until is perfect because the guy next to you on the grid may just have the his car setup perfectly.
QUOTE]
This is one serious stamp of approval; coming from Steve and hope everyone sees this.
I'm now feeling much better about all the time I've spent developing the Phoenix and myself as a driver.
As JRO stated above these really are some very fun cars to drive, really like nothing else in the SCCA.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
LoL!i am begining to wish i was one of the passengers in your grandfather's car.
So the motors must be stock inside and only some parts able to be changed to give more reliability then? Okay, I must have misunderstood and that is my fault. How many hours are you guys expecting out of the motors before they become uncompetitive? Hopefully I'm not stretching the conversation too far out of bounds for the point of this thread.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
I time my engines out after 5 race weekends. You can go way longer than that but I like to play it safe.
A typical rebuild is $2,500. I always replace rod bolts, timing chain, oil pump and of course bearings.
Haven't needed to replace any valves yet.
These engines have gotten a bad rap...they really are very durable as long as you don't drive beyond their limits. Pretty much what Steve says above.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
If it's reasonable to expect $500 for engine maintenance per race weekend then that doesn't sound as bad as I was thinking. Is that typical for parts only or do you have a shop take care of rebuilds? If that is paying a shop to do it then I just might be jumping to FB in 2016 for sure. Maybe only $300 per weekend if I do it myself.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
That rebuild cost is paying a professional engine builder to do the work. Upside to this is having your engine run in on the dyno. If it blows up on the dyno it's the engine builders problem. There is a fair amount of trickery you can do with ECU mapping which really should only be done on a dyno by someone that knows what the heck they are doing.
Frankly there are two (2) motorcycle engine builders that I trust. Each of them has their strong points and I've used both their services with good results.
In roughly 7 years of racing F1000 I've gone thru 3 engines, really not that bad.
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
Dan
A lot of the west coast guys use George Dean and Rilltech. Back home Midwest, Greg Moon supercycles does very good work and goes to a lot of the races, he is very good to work with, great support. VanceHines has done some really good Hayabusa work for me and they are local to you in Brownsburg. Just like in your previous class SM, there are many builders, all very good at what they do. The whole history of the engines failing should not worry you one bit, some guys use the same engine for years, yes years, there are guidelines that the community have established to keep the oil in the engine and avoiding fire. Stick to what has been proved to work. I saw that you were interested on the 2007 Stohr for 20k, that is a car you really don't want because of the engine, the K6 engine falls short on power by at least 15 rear wheel horsepower if not more, the K6 is a bad choice, and converting to K7/K8 could easily reach 10 grand when its all said and done, easily. I jumped into FB with a "fair deal" Novak Van Diemen conversion for 20 grand, but it came with the K6 engine and it blew up 4 engines between 2012-2013, the reason for the engines expiring prematurely was probably my fault, but I had to push it way too hard to try keep up with the K7/K8 cars. If I could recommend anything for you is to get the most enjoyable experience in FE, learn as much as you can from that car and have Kevin at Comprent go over your gearbox rear sectionat least every 6-8 hrs of use. FB will come to you and its going to be really really demanding on and off the cockpit. Hope to meet you at Gman soon. cool
Dan, Juan makes a lot of sense. Get your feet wet in FE before you jump into an FB. You will learn a ton in that FE they are good cars but not as good as a top FB. This will also give you an opportunity to meet a lot of guys and do research. Befor you spend a lot of $$.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Thanks Jay, I remember you and Brian did a stint in FE and sure it helped moving on to the next thing.... I almost jumped into FE after years of FM but decided to not chase Rettich after he schooled me for years in FM.
Good call guys. I am definitely doing FE for at least this season no matter what. As far as gingerman goes did you ever find somebody for me to pair up with for mid April?
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
And a Sport Racer or two if my memory serves me correctly.
............. and, psycho 250cc superkarts........
Brave somehow doesn't cut it. Perhaps testicular fortitude...
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
The 250 Superkarts have got to be the most violent and raw form of road racing today. The latest VM inline engine is making over 100 hp to the rear wheels. Add lots of downforce with no suspension and its a ride you will never forget.
J.R.O
100
that makes me scared and intrigued
$$$
What is the cost of a season of 250 superkart vs F1000?
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