The Future of FB/F1000

[Jnovak]

FB is great. The only thing wrong imo is that the costs to compete are continuing to escalate and will continue to do so.

[dsmithwc04]

The engines alone are $15k+

EDIT: Sorry, meant to quote the question about a seasonal cost in the 250 Super Karts. This is for a competitive 250 Superkart motor. NOT an FB. Again, my apologies for creating any confusion!

[S Lathrop]

The engines alone are $15k+

And where do you get that number.

HPD is planning to make crate engine packages available for about $6500, that includes electronics. Salvage engines are half that. That is an engine and transmission. I believe the FE transmission is close to $10,000 once it is prepped. And I would guess that the Mazda FE engine might be close to the $8,500 for a Honda Fit.

I paid $3,500 for a new engine with ECU, wiring harness, and intake air box to use for mockup on my FB. That particular car had 2 runoffs wins and one second. I don't think any of the engines used over those years cost over $5000.

Over the years, we have made very good progress improving engine life and reliability. But these engines will never last as a production based engine.

A valid comparison of engine cost would be FA because FBs are going nearly that fast. For FA, you would struggle to get a rebuild for $15,000 and a new engine for double that.

[dsmithwc04]

And where do you get that number.

HPD is planning to make crate engine packages available for about $6500, that includes electronics. Salvage engines are half that. That is an engine and transmission. I believe the FE transmission is close to $10,000 once it is prepped. And I would guess that the Mazda FE engine might be close to the $8,500 for a Honda Fit.

I paid $3,500 for a new engine with ECU, wiring harness, and intake air box to use for mockup on my FB. That particular car had 2 runoffs wins and one second. I don't think any of the engines used over those years cost over $5000.

Over the years, we have made very good progress improving engine life and reliability. But these engines will never last as a production based engine.

A valid comparison of engine cost would be FA because FBs are going nearly that fast. For FA, you would struggle to get a rebuild for $15,000 and a new engine for double that.

Steve, I edited my post. I was talking about the 250 Super Kart motors in response to a questions on what a season costs to run those. Sorry about the confusion.

[Rick Ross]

Arnie Loyning did the last rebuild of my carbed Toyota Atlantic engine for approximately $6000. This was several years ago, so prices might have increased a little since then.

[dsmithwc04]

FB is great. The only thing wrong imo is that the costs to compete are continuing to escalate and will continue to do so.

This may or may not be a problem for guys already in FB but for a few guys in my position it is what gives me cold feet with FB. I could handle the current costs of FB currently assuming the engine became more and more reliable as time goes on but with no idea where the costs will end up as the class moves forward it may surely price me out of the equation as soon as 2016 which is when I would like to move into the class. I hope FB finds a way to be the class it was designed to be ----> Fast, challenging, and relatively cheap.

And where do you get that number.

HPD is planning to make crate engine packages available for about $6500, that includes electronics. Salvage engines are half that. That is an engine and transmission. I believe the FE transmission is close to $10,000 once it is prepped. And I would guess that the Mazda FE engine might be close to the $8,500 for a Honda Fit.

I paid $3,500 for a new engine with ECU, wiring harness, and intake air box to use for mockup on my FB. That particular car had 2 runoffs wins and one second. I don't think any of the engines used over those years cost over $5000.

Over the years, we have made very good progress improving engine life and reliability. But these engines will never last as a production based engine.

A valid comparison of engine cost would be FA because FBs are going nearly that fast. For FA, you would struggle to get a rebuild for $15,000 and a new engine for double that.

Steve, the motor in my FE was rebuilt recently for $3800 by Enterprises. This was after 8 years and 20+ races/testing weekends from previous owner. The gearbox was rebuilt for under $2000 by comprent at about the same time with no major issues. What's even more crazy is this is not near as long as some other guys are getting. Not uncommon for 25+ weekend motors to be competitive nationally and within 1-3 HP of top running cars according to many in the class.

If FB could get just half as dependable as FE is (which I assume it can?) I would already be driving the Stohr that just sold in the FB classifieds and pop a newer gen motor in it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still very serious about moving into FB eventually but the motors/gearboxes will either need to become a tad more reliable/cheaper to run or at the very least not get any more expensive to run competitive. This is how FB will get more guys into the class IMO.

[S Lathrop]

If FB could get just half as dependable as FE is (which I assume it can?) I would already be driving the Stohr that just sold in the FB classifieds and pop a newer gen motor in it.

Comparing FB or for that matter FF and FC to FE or FM and Spec Racer is not a valid comparison. You have development classes and spec classes. They are 2 entirely different types of racing.

A development class is where, given the rules for the class, you can make your car as close to perfect as you are capable. That includes changing anything that needs to be changed. That level of perfection only lasts as long as the conditions under which you arrived at that point exist. I have seen a setup on my car change when the sun went behind a cloud and return when the cloud passed.

A Spec class, you at best optimize the package you are given but perfection is not possible because of some limitation. You also adapt you driving to what the car demands vs. changing the car to be exactly what you want the car be.

For someone who just wants to get out and drive a car and enjoy the fun that comes from lapping a race course fast, spec cars are the best way to go. That constant pursuit of perfection in a development car will lead to frustration and depression unless the pursuit of perfection is your gig.

[Jnovak]

Steve is right about spec classes. We ran FE for 3 seasons and were competitive but not as good as we wanted to be because we could not adjust the car to our needs. One very simple example was that our engine, for what ever reason, needed to run low fuel pressure to make power but we could not adjust the fuel pressure low enough. This meant that we were running about 5-7 hp down and there was zero we could do about it because the fuel pressure regulator was spec. Now they have increased the base fuel pressure and remapped the ECU, but that did not help us out.

Of course there is a bit more to the story but that is the gist of it.

[dsmithwc04]

Comparing FB or for that matter FF and FC to FE or FM and Spec Racer is not a valid comparison. You have development classes and spec classes. They are 2 entirely different types of racing.

A development class is where, given the rules for the class, you can make your car as close to perfect as you are capable. That includes changing anything that needs to be changed. That level of perfection only lasts as long as the conditions under which you arrived at that point exist. I have seen a setup on my car change when the sun went behind a cloud and return when the cloud passed.

A Spec class, you at best optimize the package you are given but perfection is not possible because of some limitation. You also adapt you driving to what the car demands vs. changing the car to be exactly what you want the car be.

For someone who just wants to get out and drive a car and enjoy the fun that comes from lapping a race course fast, spec cars are the best way to go. That constant pursuit of perfection in a development car will lead to frustration and depression unless the pursuit of perfection is your gig.

I agree with you whole heatedly Steve. I am not attempting in any way to compare FB as a whole to FE (or any other class TBH) I'm just saying I hope FB can find a way to continue being an exciting class but also somewhat cost controlled at the same time. If I could afford the budget I fear FB will soon demand I wouldn't be so critical. But the reality is my budget is close to being topped out in FE. If FB can't find a way to keep escalating the cost to run somewhat competitively by bringing a little more reliability into the mix then I fear I will have a hard time putting the budget together to run FB (which would be my loss as I really would love to join the class after this season in FE)

[S Lathrop]

. If FB can't find a way to keep escalating the cost to run somewhat competitively by bringing a little more reliability into the mix then I fear I will have a hard time putting the budget together to run FB (which would be my loss as I really would love to join the class after this season in FE)

From the outside, you maybe seeing ghosts that are not there. The engine reliability issue is getting better every year. There is progress being made to make it easier to introduce new engines and keep the engine power about where it is now.

We now have 2 very good engine options vs. the one we had a few years ago. While the assisted shifting systems may seem expensive, they are a one time expense and if they save one engine for the owner, and that is very likely, they pay for them selves. There are some promising developments that may increase the engine options even further.

Another way to look at FB is to think about what you would have to spend on your FE to go as fast as a FB does. You may find that FB is really a bargain.

[JRO183]

Not sure what you mean by "escalating costs"? With the Kawi engine, I fully expect my engine costs are gonna be way less than my old Suzuki due to, what looks to be so far, better reliability and accessibility to lower mile engines.

Seeing that there have only been 2 engines in these cars since 2007, The concern about having to update to newer engines on a yearly is unfounded.

New car costs have not gone up significantly over the years. Novak still offers a sweet conversion kit for readily available/affordable Van Diemens. Heck, Front Range Motorsports just sold a super clean 2001 for only $19k!

Even with budgeting some development costs (which is a huge factor that attracts me to this class, per Lathrop's explanation), there is no other format that you can go as quick per dollar in SCCA. No matter how you slice it, you cannot go Atlantic speeds on a SRF budget.

F600 is a budget class, we are a value class.

JRO

[dsmithwc04]

Good posts guys and very informative. If one were to go to 5-7 race weekends with a few doubles on a 3-4 of those weekends what should I expect myself to have aside for an annual motor budget? What about gearbox reliability and annual costs to maintain? I love the look of the Stohrs and may go that route rather than a converted VD.

[ghickman]

Good posts guys and very informative. If one were to go to 5-7 race weekends with a few doubles on a 3-4 of those weekends what should I expect myself to have aside for an annual motor budget? What about gearbox reliability and annual costs to maintain? I love the look of the Stohrs and may go that route rather than a converted VD.

There are MANY FB owners that race multiple seasons on the same engine. I would expect in that many race weekends to do one rebuild which will run about $3k parts and labor (done by a pro builder that knows what to look for). Use an engine builder that dynos after the rebuild, it will save you lots of headaches in the long run

I've yet to tear up a gearbox in 7 years of running FB. I've only changed out one shift shaft which I replaced with a new part for $80.

In my opinion the VD conversion (done properly) is a better car than the Stohr. The VD in the right hands can still be at the very pointy end of the grid (See Jeremy Hill / Glenn Cooper). Don't let the swoopy looks of the Stohr sway your decision. There are 2 of these conversion cars for sale right now that in my opinion could put any decent driver on the pole at Daytona. ...just sayin'

[iamrobg]

I'm new to this and was tagging along in this thread. I was hoping for the 2016 season but realistically probably 2017.

I'm really interested in this class. It seems semi affordable and fun to run. It was between his and the radical but something about open wheels gets me.

Has anyone run this car in other series? Narrc up here or sarrc down south. Narra? It seems like it could run in the prototype class or a sub class? I'd love to race as much as possible.