Restoring Lola t324

[tonychilton]

Hi folks,

I am restoring a 1975 Lola t324 and I have some questions:

This is an aluminum monocoque and I need to replace some aluminum bits. What type of aluminum should I use?

I appears that it was sort of glued(the glue no longer stuck the pieces together) on riveted joints. What type of glue or sealant was used and what should I use?

What is the best method for polishing the aluminum, wet or dry?

Is it worth bucking traditional rivets where possible or are cherry style aircraft pull rivets just as good?

I am getting new body parts from TW Moldings in UK. Is anyone else getting parts from them this winter maybe we can combine and save on shipping?.

Thanks for your help
TonyC

[S Lathrop]

The aluminum alloy used by Lola is not available in the US. 6061T6 is the closest available.

The glue is a structural adhesive. Hysol or Scotch Weld have products that do a very good job. The glue is as important as the rivets themselves.

For blind rivets use Avex. This is what is most likely used by Lola. You can buy the rivets from Wicks Aircraft Supply.

For general information get AIRFRAME & POWERPLANT MECHANICS GENERAL HANDBOOK Part # 13-19200 from Aircraft Spruce and Speciality.

[R. Pare]

Hi folks,

I appears that it was sort of glued(the glue no longer stuck the pieces together) on riveted joints. What type of glue or sealant was used and what should I use?

What is the best method for polishing the aluminum, wet or dry?

The glue is not longer sticking partially because the aluminium oxidized, creating a weak and brittle layer between the glue and the aluminium. Nothing you can do ablut preventing this from happening again over time, except for anodizing the panels. Unfortunately, anodizing will halve the fatigue strength of the base material, which most likely would create cracks over time. You would also need to know the exact alloy to get the anodizing correct.

Being up in aircraft building area, you might try contacting one of the anodizing shops that does any aircraft stuff and get their advice - there may be another coating process ( most likely a chemical conversion process) that would do the job but not weaken over time.

As for polishing, try Autosol and a buffer. If the local anodizer has tanks large enough, you could also try simple electropolishing.

[bkd320]

Hi,

I saw your post and am the owner of HU54, the EZ Wider sponsored Wilbur Bunce Engineering SV that finished 3rd in the Bosch Cup points trophy in '75. If you would, shoot me an email to bditson@zoominternet.net so that I can shoot you pics as it runs today.

Best
Ben

[Steve Demeter]

I always had good luck with Mothers on my T-328 for polishing.

[TED K.]

Just finished rebuilding a tub for my Wheeler FSV. 2024 T3 was the spec. alloy which is 2X as strong as 6061 T6 but more difficult to bend. The glue of choice is 3M Scotch-Weld 2216 gray-easier to work than the tan or clear.If the original rivets were bucked rivets ,then rivet choice depends on appearance- hard Al. aircraft rivets and the proper Cherry pull rivet are the same strenth, but the Cherry rivets are easier to install, especially if access to the bucked rivet on both sides is not readily avail. As to separation, if the surface is prepped properly ,it should last as long as my first tub-26 yrs. The glue is there for strength AND corrosion protection.

Have fun, Ted K.

[tonychilton]

Thanks Ted

2024 T3 was the spec. alloy which is 2X as strong as 6061 T6

Anyone else want to comment on these two aluminums?

Also I agree glue and rivets are best. What do you all use to keep the 5-12 mil thickness of the the riveted and glued joint?

Thanks to all for your comments and knowledge.

[gegar]

The preferred surface prep prior to bonding or painting aluminum is to apply Alodine. It is available in either a clear or light gold formulation. I prefer the gold so that my old eyes can see where its been applied. A good rinse with DI water is preferred.
Bond line thickness control is accomplished by adding glass beads to the part A & B mix, at a mixing ratio of 0.1 to 0.25% by volume, mix throughly. The beads act as spacers that insure the proper bond line thickness. Optimum bond line strength and more importantly stiffness are acheived using 0.005" to 0.008" diameter beads. I have found the best way to assemble the uncured joint together is to use Klecos, which go in very quickly. Then after the joint is fully cured you can take your time installing the rivets. If you use the Kleco approach I strongly suggest treating the ends with a release agent prior to installing.

[TED K.]

Tony, I disagree with the" spacer" approach to bonding. Based on the separated parts of the original Wheeler tub-built by Dave Klym from FabCar, still in business- the bond thickness varied from 1-2 mils to 8 mils,probably because NONE of the .094 mil thk. tub pieces are that flat. [If your repair tub pieces are thinner than that-prob. .060 mil thk.- the flatness is worse.] The steel crossmembers and roll hoop joints ,bonded and riveted to the tub varied even more. Forcing a joint thickness, especially with fragile glass beads is the wrong approach for strength, in my opinion.
Also, all of the alloy. pieces in my tubs -orig. and new-are bare 2024 T3-no coatings. The bonding glue performs that function.

Ted K. greyeagles@msn.com.

[tonychilton]

so Ted and Gegar,

The 3m 2216 b/a pdf says:
Keep parts from moving until handling strength is reached. Contact pressure is
necessary. Maximum shear strength is obtained with a 3-5 mil bond line.
Maximum peel strength is obtained with a 17-25 mil bond line.

I guess if you don't rivet (i.e.e use clecos) till it's set you may get close to the 3-5 mill range eh.

[TED K.]

Tony, My new tub assy. was riveted with minimal wet joints after drilling, fitting,and cleaning. Cleaning excess glue immediately is easy with proper solvent. Work life of the 2216 is several hrs. Sets over nite. NO messy cleco's to clean. Over 1000 Cherry pull rivets and over 400 hard bucked rivets were used.

Ted K. greyeagles@msn.com

[S Lathrop]

I would not use 2024 aluminum for the tub.

While it is stronger, the material strength is not an issue in the construction of a tub, the joints are. But minor dents in 6061 might lead to cracking in 2024 alloy.

Denting the tub is a certainty not just a possibility.

[TED K.]

If you saw the way my 2024 T3 tub BENT-and not cracked- in a 110mph crash, I think you would change your mind! I have also seen some 6061 T6 wheeel halves that have bent AND cracked in an accident.
But don't rely on all of us , call a tub builder-Marc Bahner or ?
Ted K.

[S Lathrop]

If you saw the way my 2024 T3 tub BENT-and not cracked- in a 110mph crash, I think you would change your mind! I have also seen some 6061 T6 wheeel halves that have bent AND cracked in an accident.
But don't rely on all of us , call a tub builder-Marc Bahner or ?
Ted K.

I too have built more than one monocoque and I have seen how they held up in 150+ crashes on some ovals.

In the '70's there was a major industry in Indianapolis turning out Indy cars. Those guys were my teachers.

2024 is a stronger material, and if you are not going to paint, in Alclad treated material, corrosion is much less of an issue. But does using 2024 make a car better? I doubt it. For my airplane, I am using 2024 in all the structural applications and not 6061.

[john f]

If you saw the way my 2024 T3 tub BENT-and not cracked- in a 110mph crash, I think you would change your mind! I have also seen some 6061 T6 wheeel halves that have bent AND cracked in an accident.
But don't rely on all of us , call a tub builder-Marc Bahner or ?
Ted K.

Written by someone who does not know who he is talking to!


john f

[TED K.]

" always some EXPERT who is smarter than FACTS"

[Charles Warner]

" always some EXPERT who is smarter than FACTS"

QED

[Cy M]

Interested to see the finished car.

[TED K.]

Interested to see the finished car.

Just for ref. added Wheeler photos to early quote.--Ted K.

[jaweakley]

Just for ref. added Wheeler photos to early quote.--Ted K.

I own the Lola T324 that is mentioned at the beginning of this string, Tony Chilton did a great job rebuilding the tub and complete car, I just took the car to its first road racing event at the SVRA Spring Elkhart Lake event. The car is solid and the tub did wonderful. Here is a picture of the finished car....

[john f]

You ran in the group with me. Very nice looking car. Too bad they had you in that group, not really a match for F1 cars

john f

[TED K.]

I own the Lola T324 that is mentioned at the beginning of this string, Tony Chilton did a great job rebuilding the tub and complete car, I just took the car to its first road racing event at the SVRA Spring Elkhart Lake event. The car is solid and the tub did wonderful. Here is a picture of the finished car....

TONY CHILTON,

The T324 LOOKS GREAT! Ted K.

[tonychilton]

http://tonysvintage.com/HU61build.html

running a Toyota WSR now

my BANDIT vintage hill climber still for sale search for BANDIT this site (any reasonable offer)

[Cy M]

Looks great. I think the 324 and 360 used the same parts for the coolant. Oil in 324 and water in the 360. I owned Herm Johnson's 324 many years ago after water cooled conversion. A neat setup!

[HayesCages]

Thanks for sharing the build pics.! We're going through HU66 now. This chassis has rows of blind rivets along the lower and mid-rear of the outer tub panels that seemingly have no use. They hold nothing together but run from the rear to the front of the fuel cell compartment. Any idea what their use was?

[tonychilton]

Those are not done by Lola. Maybe someone had some strengthening panels in there. It seems they would rub on the fuel cell.
You might want to make some new side panels or maybe drill the rivets out and bond aluminum sheet to the inside. Make sure you check attachment of roll structure to monocoque; it's critical.

Folded aluminum no more - too much work.

[billtebbutt]

QED

Well said Charles

bt

[Rick Kirchner]

You ran in the group with me. Very nice looking car. Too bad they had you in that group, not really a match for F1 cars

john f

I'm hoping that over the next few years as participation in the "mid-size" formula car categories increases (all FSV, F2000, etc) that we can get SVRA looking at a different group structure. Perhaps when we get numbers at an event that eclipses the Indycar/F1/Atlantic/F2 crowd.

One of the issues is their focus on appearance vis performance. You may have speed more appropriate for the front of the FF/FB grid with a small differential but wings and slicks puts you at the back of the seriously fast guy grid with a huge differential.