What do WE need to do...

[Johan W]

I think everyone has expressed their thoughts and ideas. One of them is about informing the general Public about vee's. That why I started another thread, summing the ideas.

Any newbie reading these posts, will have second thoughts, because now we are talking about the sky falling as well as personally challenging people.

BTW Ontario does have more than 10 Vee's

Do you want another closet driver/s that refrain to discus and keep quiet? Look at the entries for the last two races at Calabogie and Mosport. I'm the newbie and I saw...ten? Then there's Devee that's retiring and another that have his vee for sale...he done only one race at Calabogie with a clone BRD. I'm discussing pricing with him right now to help somebody else into vees. Bought a BRD two hours ago on ebay that "Marcus" can have for FREE to do his drivers license.

*Let every opinion count.....

[nbrigido]

Do you want another closet driver/s that refrain to discus and keep quiet? Look at the entries for the last two races at Calabogie and Mosport. I'm the newbie and I saw...ten? Then there's Devee that's retiring and another that have his vee for sale...he done only one race at Calabogie with a clone BRD. I'm discussing pricing with him right now to help somebody else into vees. Bought a BRD two hours ago on ebay that "Marcus" can have for FREE to do his drivers license.

*Let every opinion count.....

I think you missed my point...instead of discussing what to do, we are starting to challenge people about what they are doing. That is counter productive. Not a comment direct at you or anyone in specific.

We have our work cut out for us, and every opinion does count. And not the intended purpose of the thread.

And no one ever stated or hinted that someone needed to refrain or keep quite.

[Sigma Racing]

Sorry to get off topic but I did at least get to write goodbye to RadRog on one of his last posts before he disappeared forever. He was entertaining to say the least.

I am sure Markus whomever will be happy to add more info to his account. Funny email address for a Markus though. Makes me believe it is another person

Relax there CIA...
That just happens to be my business email. Markus is my middle name since most people can't pronounce my first name. But all you had to do is ask... nicely!
We joined Apex to figure out the community, the different series and the challenges that come with them. Not to reveal our personal info to the world, what are you 13? LOL

[Sigma Racing]

Do you want another closet driver/s that refrain to discus and keep quiet? Look at the entries for the last two races at Calabogie and Mosport. I'm the newbie and I saw...ten? Then there's Devee that's retiring and another that have his vee for sale...he done only one race at Calabogie with a clone BRD. I'm discussing pricing with him right now to help somebody else into vees. Bought a BRD two hours ago on ebay that "Marcus" can have for FREE to do his drivers license.

*Let every opinion count.....

I'll take you up on it. We are based in Milton. Does the offer stand for other drivers as well? Send me an email.... And thank you again.

[karmaboy]

Then there's Devee that's retiring

I assume that's me...I'm not retiring. My car is for sale, but I'm still racing.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

With a population a 1/15th of North America, the Australian FV National Championship this past week-end could *only* fit 58 cars on the grid at Philip Island. And this, because the car occupation limit was reached for the track. Apparently they had another 8 cars on a standby list.



Whatever they are doing (or have done) is obviously working right now. Is there any reason why SCCA/FV/FST/whatever can't match their model?

JS

[Rolling Stone]

I'll take you up on it. We are based in Milton. Does the offer stand for other drivers as well? Send me an email.... And thank you again.

I used to live in Milton in the 80s on Trafalgar rd & Derry on a horse farm which is now a big golf course,man!!has Milton ever changed and grown!!!!my first drive/own a F1200 was back then when I had a FRANKLIN it had square tube frame and flexed going over corner 2 at Mosport.

[Rolling Stone]

I assume that's me...I'm not retiring. My car is for sale, but I'm still racing.

What? marathonsjoking aside Kevin,what are you going to drive/class?

[Rolling Stone]

With a population a 1/15th of North America, the Australian FV National Championship this past week-end could *only* fit 58 cars on the grid at Philip Island. And this, because the car occupation limit was reached for the track. Apparently they had another 8 cars on a standby list.



Whatever they are doing (or have done) is obviously working right now. Is there any reason why SCCA/FV/FST/whatever can't match their model?

JS

Yes!open minded,forward thinking folks willing to change things

[Rolling Stone]

Relax there CIA...
That just happens to be my business email. Markus is my middle name since most people can't pronounce my first name. But all you had to do is ask... nicely!
We joined Apex to figure out the community, the different series and the challenges that come with them. Not to reveal our personal info to the world, what are you 13? LOL

Bam-Bam blushing oooops!!

[karmaboy]

What? marathonsjoking aside Kevin,what are you going to drive/class?

If the car doesn't sell, I'll use it to race with the Libre guys at the Calabogie. Will do the Calabogie regional race in the spring, Shannonville and Ted Powell.
If it sells...don't know...lots of options.

[Rolling Stone]

If the car doesn't sell, I'll use it to race with the Libre guys at the Calabogie. Will do the Calabogie regional race in the spring, Shannonville and Ted Powell.
If it sells...don't know...lots of options.

McLaren seat??

[Johan W]

I'll take you up on it. We are based in Milton. Does the offer stand for other drivers as well? Send me an email.... And thank you again.

Yes...all my details in the member section with address and tel numbers with e-mails. That would be for Dave and you that want to do the driving school for now. If more then two want to do the driving school just have to arrange and see if they can do on same weekend.

[Johan W]

I assume that's me...I'm not retiring. My car is for sale, but I'm still racing.

I like the fact that you're still racing but wished that it was in a vee.....you're way younger then me.

[Steve Bamford]

Yes!open minded,forward thinking folks willing to change things

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't FST very close to what is being run down under? If so you have what you want it is just there aren't the same numbers running.

As for the open minded, willing to change, they created FST. So not sure where you are going with the post.

[Bill Bonow]

Steve/Frank,

The basic difference in Australian FV 1600 (they wanted to call it Formula First, but CAMS was fearful of a Bernie lawsuit) and US Formula First (FST) is wheel/tire package, they run a fan/belt and we have dry sump. We based our rules around theirs, so yep, pretty much the same difference.

[problemchild]

As for the open minded, willing to change, they created FST.

Those in FV that are open minded and willing to change get frustrated and leave. That is OK though because an overwhelming majority are committed to the status quo. As Des pointed out in another thread, if you cannot accept it, then save everybody the trouble and pick another class. Losing 20 people to attract 2 people is not progress ..... merely subtraction by addition.

Trying to effect change in FV is like having a fight with your wife. Logic and rational thought are not applicable. At some point, you end up sleeping in the garage. No apologies to anyone offended by my sexist comments.

[Steve Bamford]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't FST very close to what is being run down under? If so you have what you want it is just there aren't the same numbers running.

As for the open minded, willing to change, they created FST. So not sure where you are going with the post.

The meaning of my post was that there were people who wanted a difference and they have their class already. Even with that there is no real car counts. So even with the options in Australia there are not 58 Vee car grids.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Exactly it's not just about technically creating a new class.

This being said the tire and engine differences between a FST and an Australian FV are quite important. Ask an Australian FV driver who drove a FST in the US what he thinks of the engine and tires of a FST. His comments will not make the FST very attractive if you are driving a FV.

At least it didn't convince me to switch.

JS

The meaning of my post was that there were people who wanted a difference and they have their class already. Even with that there is no real car counts. So even with the options in Australia there are not 58 Vee car grids.

[Rolling Stone]

Those in FV that are open minded and willing to change get frustrated and leave. That is OK though because an overwhelming majority are committed to the status quo. As Des pointed out in another thread, if you cannot accept it, then save everybody the trouble and pick another class. Losing 20 people to attract 2 people is not progress ..... merely subtraction by addition.

Trying to effect change in FV is like having a fight with your wife. Logic and rational thought are not applicable. At some point, you end up sleeping in the garage. No apologies to anyone offended by my sexist comments.

Difference is and to my point is my wife would sleep in the garage,and I keep the T.V.remote too!!!

[problemchild]

Exactly it's not just about technically creating a new class.

This being said the tire and engine differences between a FST and an Australian FV are quite important. Ask an Australian FV driver who drove a FST in the US what he thinks of the engine and tires of a FST. His comments will not make the FST very attractive if you are driving a FV.

At least it didn't convince me to switch.

JS

Who would care what one Australian driver thinks? The cars are very similar. If he did not like FST tires, then he won't like US FV tires either. Many of us have driven both FVs and FST cars. Once you get rid of any political banter, and get behind the wheel, driving and racing either is virtually the same. FV racers "race" FV because of the competition, not because of the driving. At this point, FV has the advantage of more competition than FST in some areas. Unfortunately, more and more, long expensive tows are required to find competition in either.

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Greg: you are missing the point and once again turning this into a FV vs FST discussion.
My comment about FST vs the Australian version was merely to say the differences are there.

The point you are missing is that Australia had the same issue. They had to face the same type of resistance than has been seen here (and probably the same defeatist comments you have been posting). It worked for them though. What can you learn from them?

Again not a FV vs FST comment.

Who would care what one Australian driver thinks? The cars are very similar. If he did not like FST tires, then he won't like US FV tires either. Many of us have driven both FVs and FST cars. Once you get rid of any political banter, and get behind the wheel, driving and racing either is virtually the same. FV racers "race" FV because of the competition, not because of the driving. At this point, FV has the advantage of more competition than FST in some areas. Unfortunately, more and more, long expensive tows are required to find competition in either.

[B Farnham]

Australian FV doesn't have a sanctioning body that keeps creating more and more classes. SCCA has so many classes that it dilutes both the FV and FST fields.

[Steve Bamford]

Australian FV doesn't have a sanctioning body that keeps creating more and more classes. SCCA has so many classes that it dilutes both the FV and FST fields.

I was wondering the number of classes and thought perhaps that was part of it. I know they have FF for sure, just not sure of the number of other open wheel classes. The number of available classes to race in will surely help if there are less choices.

[Steve Davis]

Australian FV doesn't have a sanctioning body that keeps creating more and more classes. SCCA has so many classes that it dilutes both the FV and FST fields.

VERY interesting reminder. I wonder just how many classes and drivers are involved in the various sanctioning bodies that might be in Oz land?
I think we can also add they have a much reduced geographic area to consider as well.

[nbrigido]

Less # of classes would logically create large fields in the available classes?

Those who want to race open wheel are going to gravitate to what's available.

Too many options is not necessarily the best route.

More participants in any class should logically bring down operating cost (due to scale of economies).

But does making change during a "down" period help or hinder the cause. If you already have large fields and everyone agrees that change is best, then things are easier and don't impact the series as much.

[nbrigido]

Is it just me not paying attention...

FV: General Discussion (38 Viewing)
Open content and general conversation about national and club FV and Ffirst racing

[jhenn4716]

Okay, we've rambled on for 267 posts and really haven't gotten very far. The discussion on what if anything to change on FV needs to be put on a back burner for now. What we need is bodies in seats. Changing tires, or switching to disc brakes isn't going to do that.

We need a concerted effort by the FV and FST community to do something. We both race together, so lets act more like adults and try to help each other out. Bill pointed it out before, which would you rather run with.. a FA? or another FV or FST? We need more numbers on the track.

Some really good ideas have been brought forth by some really smart people. Let's start acting on those ideas. Myself and a few others have already stepped forward to help spearhead implementing some of those ideas. But we're going to need more help, from both sides. And honestly I'm tired of saying that. Just because someone races an FST doesn't make him my enemy since I'm in a Vee. We're all drivers. We get the same thrill from suiting up, buckling in, and driving around a track as fast as our brains and balls will let us.

So I say to you all, time to put up or shut up (in as polite a manner as possible).

[sracing]

Okay, we've rambled on for 267 posts and really haven't gotten very far....... We need a concerted effort by the FV and FST community to do something. We both race together, so lets act more like adults and try to help each other out.

Best and most accurate post so far. Keep them both. When the numbers support it, make FST a National. Then keep running them both. (like Australia) People can change to whatever as they wish. We race together for as long as there exists either class. (as separate classes). It puts more FST/FV cars out there and gives us all a better chance of decent run groups.

Or.. junk all of them and just keep posting to this thread....

[csingletary01]

Jim good post. I have been following this verbal battle for years now and it appears just to be that. Nothing has moved forward. I think that we need to just band together and try to grow both classes. I think one way to have us combined as two classes to make our own group and with bigger fields it would make it easier to attract new people. I have two dogs in this fight a vintage Vee and a FST. I will say it is a lot of fun in the Vee as CVAR typically has 20 plus car fields and the FST is very enjoyable car to drive and is such a easy car to maintain compared to my Vee. The maintenance costs on my FST run about 1/2 of what it takes to keep my Vee competitive in the top 10 at CVAR. We just had a race at Gateway with 12 FST's and it was one of the most fun races I have ran in my 40 plus years of racing due to the race long wheel to wheel battles these cars offer also. I think a combined group would be one step to grow our classes. Just my two cents. I hope this post does not set off a verbal battle which is why I think a lot of people don't even post anymore.

[B Farnham]

Everyone already knows about the Rand pro series that has been so successful, maybe it would be worth exploring a regional type all open wheel weekend. Get the FST series, the FV challenge cup, DUFFUS ff series and a few others together and not only get your own run groups but your own open wheel weekend.

The pro series model has worked, with enough planning and effort I think this would help not only FV and FST grow but other open wheel classes as well.

[Steve Davis]

Everyone already knows about the Rand pro series that has been so successful, maybe it would be worth exploring a regional type all open wheel weekend. Get the FST series, the FV challenge cup, DUFFUS ff series and a few others together and not only get your own run groups but your own open wheel weekend.

The pro series model has worked, with enough planning and effort I think this would help not only FV and FST grow but other open wheel classes as well.

We ARE exploring such a possibility. There is a chance that we might be able to do something at Summit Point this year. It's a good location between north and south for all groups. We are in 'discussions', but it basically comes down to DC region being willing to take a gamble. If we get the opportunity, I sure hope we all 'fill the stands', so to speak, to justify it.

[Joe Marcinski]

Hi,

Steve is correct; there has been a meeting and a good deal of discussion going on between DUFFUS, the FV community and the F500/F600 group. If someone who can speak for the FST folks is reading this please let either Steve or me know.

If you are interested in single class racing with a great deal of track time and are willing to tow to Summit Point in August; then please let Steve know (ASAP).

We have some very strong advocates in the WDC Region who working to secure the type of weekend that B Farnham has suggested, but we have to convince the Board that there will be enough cars to pay for the weekend. We will be guaranteed single class racing with multiple races; we just need to demonstrate some strength of numbers.

Joe Marcinski
#04 Club Ford Royale RP24
one of the DUFFI

[B Farnham]

Its great to hear that this is already in motion. I think that these types of weekends are the future of open wheel racing.

[rcarmody]

Thats one weekend any talk about multiple weekends? Also if any one wants to help with the challange cup let me know a good group of guys pushing forward we are looking for anyone that is willing to help with the series.


Ray Carmody FV81
115107

[rgu]

Joe

I am the director of the FFDA and a board member. I suppose I can speak for the FST drivers.

FYI we are setting up our series right now. The time is right

[Steve Davis]

Joe

I am the director of the FFDA and a board member. I suppose I can speak for the FST drivers.

FYI we are setting up our series right now. The time is right

I guess the NEXT question would be .. would the Vees and FST's run as a combined "single" group? I doubt there are enough FST's that could make it to support their own group.

That DOES bring up something else to think about. For this purpose should we go ahead an start that effort toward a "single" group of TWO classes??

How about some input from other potential attendees. Would you support a "single class race group" that really has TWO classes in it? I think for an effort like this, WDCR would EXPECT at least 25 cars per group. I doubt FST could do that. FV, OTOH, probably could .. unless we allow FST to run with us - then I'm not sure if we would lose FV's as a result of that. Let's don't worry about "wins" or "Trophies'.. just being on the track together.

What do you guys (FV and FST) think? Could this be the FIRST EVENT?

[BLS]

I'll be there.

Barry

[nbrigido]

I guess the NEXT question would be .. would the Vees and FST's run as a combined "single" group? I doubt there are enough FST's that could make it to support their own group.

That DOES bring up something else to think about. For this purpose should we go ahead an start that effort toward a "single" group of TWO classes??

How about some input from other potential attendees. Would you support a "single class race group" that really has TWO classes in it? I think for an effort like this, WDCR would EXPECT at least 25 cars per group. I doubt FST could do that. FV, OTOH, probably could .. unless we allow FST to run with us - then I'm not sure if we would lose FV's as a result of that. Let's don't worry about "wins" or "Trophies'.. just being on the track together.

What do you guys (FV and FST) think? Could this be the FIRST EVENT?

Either way, IMO you would have to look at 2 specific classes in 1 race. No one will every remember the winner of the "B" series. You would need a FST 1,2,3 and FV 1,2,3,

I have never raced with a FST, so I cannot comment on the "Racing Experience" running both classes together.

The concept has merit, especially when trying to get dedicated track time.

[Joe Marcinski]

In reply to Ray Carmody's question about multiple weekends? I think we need to demonstrate that we can all pull together and actually bring some healthy number of cars in each class for at least one event before we talk about a series.

I have been speaking with Steve Davis and Ray Qualls about collaboration between the FF/CF and FV groups. I have also spoken with Jim Murphy and Fred Edwards about the same thing with the F500/F600 group. I guess we are in the initial stages of forming a loose alliance that could work to the benefit of all of us; it we show up. As a result of these latest postings it appears as though there is also interest from the FST group.

We have talked about this and think that B Farnham is correct. If the formula car drivers want to see single class racing we need to focus on some special events. We probably need to keep the number relatively low because of the expenses involved.

The other piece of this is that it is no secret that quite a few SCCA regions have weekends that are historically poorly attended. The regions are very hesitant to give up the dates for fear of losing them to another group. So, if we could band together, show that we can bring a good car count for several classes to the track, be willing to pay a bit more for more track time and single class racing; we just might be able to put together several special events each year.

But, we need to be able to demonstrate that we can do it before we can gain any credibility. What do you think? Is this something that you can REALLY support? Please let us know.

Thanks,

Joe Marcinski
#04 Club Ford Royale RP24