Steve, have to commend your efforts on maintaining this site. Which would be a excellent link point from other sites.Originally Posted by Steve Davis
Steve, have to commend your efforts on maintaining this site. Which would be a excellent link point from other sites.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
I agree, what we are doing is probably not working well enough, but I don't think we are doing enough to "expose" the class. I think we are at a point that we have to start a forward movement and fine tune it as we go.
No matter which age bracket we go after, the fundamentals of the series will remain the same. Lower Cost, Close Racing, inexpensive cars...
Taking from you previous statements regarding "target" audience. Would you not agree that a different method of exposure is required for each of the "age" brackets? i agree, a couple of pamplets taped to a phone poll is not going to work.
Younger = Karting Events, Web
Milleniums = Rice Rocket car shows, Web,
Middle Age = Car Shows, Car Clubs, Friday Cruise night gatherings.....
Everyone = Test Days, Track invites, Get people on email lists for even info.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
Think part of the challenge, is having people that will or have the time to dedicate doing these updates.
The live updates i have seen in some of the other series, is amazing. Following the race via the feed is not bad. Usually the results are posted within an hour of the race, with a full update on the website. Personally being able to allow friends and families to follow live is a big plus.
Again most groups have a limited budget and would depend on volunteer work to get the accomplished.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
Doug's right about target audiences. Yes, ideally you could reach everyone, but that's not reality. Take for example the pitch you're describing for two groups that have come up in this thread:
Easy to setup, reliable, low tech is going to be a hard sell to a lot of FSAE guys. They've put in their time developing very advanced race cars. In ways they're higher tech than any of the SCCA classes. Sure some probably want to just run, but I suspect a lot want a project as well. I don't know how you market around this issue. I guess post-collegiate income is the best route.
Cheap, close, "skills" racing isn't going to sell to a guy driving a shifter. Maybe I'm wrong but I suspect a kart minimally runs similar times, with bigger fields and close racing. There, the best selling point is probably actual tracks, no one's ever aspired to race at your local kart track. There are a bunch of actual tracks I cannot wait drive.
It's nice to think that everyone has the NEFV experience. A grand total of 3 people entered the last San Francisco regional race. There may be a lot that can be taken from that, but promising huge fields and awesome racing is hard to accept when in some races I could throw the car in reverse and podium.
Might be true. There are other classes for those folks that allow more design/adjustability/etc. It also costs a lot more.Easy to setup, reliable, low tech is going to be a hard sell to a lot of FSAE guys.
The drivers we need to reach are the ones that have a desire to race and do not want to spend $20-50k a year doing it. They will be found in a variety of locations, some might be FSAE, some track day types, some autocross types, karters, etc.
I think the idea of a single market fails because there is not a single market group out there large enough. We will have to draw from all interested groups even if that is not what some consider normal "marketing" practice. How these folks are reached is the real question. Without a national (SCCA) plan it is left up to the individuals/local groups to try and introduce potential participants to the sport - and FV in particular.
I find the lack of spectator races a real impediment. My guess is that those with no connection to racing got the bug from attending SCCA races somewhere along the line. There does not seem to be a real large group of potential racers to draw from anymore.
The reading is 65kw and 95NM.
I completely agree with your post.
With regard to your quote above, many years ago I went to a "regional" AMA motorcycle race at Loudon and watched them practice all day long and I was one of only two people in the stands. As always, anything looks slow on a track. Uninformed, I figured I could easily do that, and I took up racing bikes for several years. Twenty years later when me and two of my kids went to an ALMS race at Lime Rock. We weren't there for 10 minutes before my daughter turned to me and said "we need to do this". The next year we started FV racing. So, being a spectator pulled me into racing, twice now. I hadn't really thought if it.
It would be good if we could break down some of the barriers keeping people from coming. I often don't bother asking people to come up to the track because they have to sign in between certain hours to get in as my crew. I know people want to wake up later on weekends and simply don't want to come up that early. It's always a long drive.
Why can't the SCCA let anyone connected to the racing folks get in for free? Maybe one way we could get them in for free outside of the crew/racer sign-in hours is by passing out SCCA "Get In Free" cards, and when they come to the track and give those to the track office, the track knows they are connected and lets them in.
I know I'd invite a lot more people if we had this. Thoughts? John
I too was first attracted to Formula Vee having watched a race at Silverstone.
I may stand corrected, but I believe part of the reason for racing behind closed doors is to save on insurance costs and keep entry fees down.
CASC offers free tickets for its events; you download them from their website and print them off. The crucial bit is the free ticket carries the warning about motorsport being dangerous. I am not sure who pays for this, but it’s probably the drivers, as an entry for regional at Mosport is nearly C$500 now.
Since this is my first year back after a very long time (35 years) I doubt my thoughts account for much. I saw my first FV race at Road Atlanta, 1970 I think. It was a CanAm race (and the first RA race I believe) that I went to watch and there was a FV race prior to the CanAM. I did not know what those cars were at the time, but after watching about 10-12 cars all trying to win the race, I knew that was for me. I was 17 at the time and SCCA required age of 21. That age changed to 18 in 1973 and I started building a car.Thoughts? John
Atlanta allows spectators in today, but few show up anymore. There is no marketing done like I recall back in the 70's. I do remember going to national races at RA with 50-60K spectators. I remember driving around through the S's on the pace lap at one race and looking up to see a big banner with my name on it. I had no clue. I found out later it was just a group of people from my hometown that were there and I knew none of them. Atlanta races drew a pretty good crowd and were advertised.
Having the runoffs at the same track year after year helped with the spectator/fan base I'm sure.
Other tracks did not have quite that level of spectator attendance. I do know of some other racers that were lured into racing after attending SCCA races. I can think of 4 for certain, one in FV and the others in production classes. All became close friends.
Frankly, if SCCA at a national level does not do more to promote a fan base, I'm not sure anything we do at the local level will be of consequence. I certainly appreciate the NE crowd, the number of cars, and the effort to promote the class.
The other item that seems different to me is the number of regional races (SE div). There seem to be a lot of them. With so many to pick from, I'm afraid the regional racers are showing up to the closest tracks and we are watering down the participation. Some targeted grouping seems to be needed.
When I look at a regional race being held in the summer time at Road Atlanta and there is only 1 or 2 V's entered, it is pretty sad. One of the greatest road course tracks in the world... In the 70's I don't think I ever ran a race without at least 20 cars entered. But no one wants to race with FA and FB on the track. Can't blame them.
I wish I had the answers.
Barry
The reason most events are NON spectator is the cost of insurance, security and clean up required. Atlanta Region and Road Atlanta have an agreement to split the costs and any revenue generated so that all of our events ARE spectator, but that is a rare situation. The cost of the spectator tickets still have to cover .. or mostly cover the cost associated with allowing non SCCA people into the track. SCCA people (that are properly signed in) are covered by our event insurance, but 'general population' people are not and the track must purchase a rider to cover themselves, no matter what sort of waivers people sign. Over the years, I've had a BUNCH of people say they'd like to come watch me race at Road Atlanta. However, unless I can sign them in for FREE on my crew, no one has EVER paid for a spectator pass and come to watch.
It's just a COST issue that can't be ignored and there's not much we can do about it other than trying to work with the track people to get a deal we can live with. These days, I doubt we put 200 paying spectators in the track - but I haven't seen the numbers in MANY years. It sure doesn't look like many from the track looking into the infield I can tell you that.
"Back in the day", we used to put 25,000+ spectators in the track for big events like the Runoffs.. but that was when Paul Newman and Nissan were doing the Promos - it's been quite a while since anyone stepped up to do major promotions for ANY SCCA
Club' event .. not even the Runoffs. They hardly even promote the Pro events like Trans Am.
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
Noel,you forgot people like me =The Legion
You don't count now as you retired from racingNoel,you forgot people like me =The Legion
With that said, Frank how do we get you out of the Legion back onto the track or has that ship sailed? That is the question that the thread started with.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 11.19.14 at 11:33 AM.
Steve Bamford
things have changed
I have been directly involved in Club Racing since 1966 and things have changed dramatically. I know that there are those who say that costs are not any higher when corrected for inflation. well that is BULL****. I used to go to the races with a $200 budget + about $100 cash in my pocket and we won a ton of Nationals, divisional championships and were very close at the Runoffs.
When I built my first Vee I had about $1500 in the car and it was all built from used and other folks scrap. I went to my first National and qualified 6th out of 69 cars. So in those days a low bucks racer could make it happen, no way anymore.
I can tell you for certain that unless we can figure out a way to lower costs dramatically the number of people racing will continue to decline and new members will never start.
FVee is the only class that has an opportunity to at least reduce the cost of the cars but that will NEVER happen IMO.
Just the facts as I see them. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Steve,You don't count now as you retired from racing
With that said, Frank how do we get you out of the Legion back onto the track or has that ship sailed? That is the question that the thread started with.
I love & miss it ,I still go to every race but after the Calaogie crash I came back but halfway thro the 2013 season I just missed by inches hitting a spinning Eugene Cartini at turn one at the start at Mosport and my nerve and courage got the better of me and being slow as well I decided to call it quits.Also with a fractured spine Doc told me another impact could break my back were it healed,I was damn lucky the first time I wasnt going to push my luck especially at my age regarding bones healing etc,its OK for you young handsome race drivers,with fast cars,fast women,young bones
Jay, I'm sure no one is offended. A few facts from the time machine:Just the facts as I see them. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
$1500 in 1970 is $9200 in 2014. You can buy a ready to go racing car for that.
$300 in 1970 is $1850 in 2014. You can got to a majors race and buy a set of tires for less than that.
I'm not accounting for declining incomes which is a recent phenomenon. I've done the calculations for my own budget numbers from 1975 and it costs less now than then.
None of which solves the problem. There just might not be the same number of people willing to spend the amount of money required to be competitive.
Lowering costs is a good idea. However, other than a spec tire, I do not see where it is going to happen. The only other avenue that might be significant would be the 1600 engine with restrictor used by the FST class. We do not know what will happen if a lot of people start developing that engine. There are small items as well, but nothing that will lower the costs by significant amounts. Maybe you, or others have some ideas...
YMMV,
Barry
Jay, where (other than tires) do you see the cost reductions coming from? I'm at a loss other than what is in my previous post (tires, engine maybe).FVee is the only class that has an opportunity to at least reduce the cost of the cars but that will NEVER happen IMO.
Thanks,
Barry
Barry, I am sure your inflation numbers are right. What I should have better defined is that I meant was "what it cost to run at the front"
I built a car that could run at the front for about $1500 plus a LOT of sweat equity. Can you run at the front in FVEE for say $10k in equipment? The answer to that is "NO WAY". A top engine for FVEE costs that much now and people are leaving and not getting involved because of this and other issues. Even though only a few racers can actually run at the front, everyone wants to think that they have a chance.
Most of the members of the Vee community are adamant about NO CHANGES for any reason at all. The Vee numbers are down about 70% from the days when Vee was at its peak.
Here is a class that still has an opportunity to be the best low cost racing on the planet but the prevailing sentiment is "we are never changing anything ever", even if the class dies. Well pay attention, it is dieing. There are tons of ways to reduce the cost in Vee but not many want that and those that do are ostracized.
Again, just my opinion and I still remember the smile on my face the first time I drove a Vee.
My last post on this as it is not any of my business.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
There are cars you can buy for 10 k & run at the front, many of them.
Steve Bamford
With the right talent and desire
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
This is very true. I purchased a nice car last year for 15K with two national quality motors and a lifetime of spares. My son finished 7th at the runoffs in that car. A more experienced driver would have been among the leaders.
I'm sure Terran Swanson spent less then 10K to campaign his car all season which included winning the western conference and the runoffs. (well almost winning the runoffs Tech DQ after the race)
Jay, could you list some of these ways to save money ? Other then spec tires I don't really see any significant ways to save money. Entry fee's would be a good start but we all know that isn't going to happen.There are tons of ways to reduce the cost in Vee but not many want that and those that do are ostracized.
There is no doubt that FV is the cheapest class to run at a national, and regional level, however, FV, and SCCA racing in general, has gone from a blue collar sport to a white collar sport IMHO.
Scott
I disagree that it is none of your business. While I know there is some sentiment for "non FV owners" to stay out of it, having an affordable entry level formula class is in the best interests of all the formula car groups. One has to start somewhere...My last post on this as it is not any of my business.
The other comments point out what I would say, it is possible to run at the front for a lot less than what some people spend. It requires talent of course, something that seems in short supply in my car.
IF I had an unlimited budget I would certainly spend a lot more. But I don't, nor am I anywhere near the front. I really doubt more money would make much difference. Just wait 'till next year...
The point remains, it is an expensive hobby and I don't know where you can dramatically cut costs further. ANY ideas are welcome. Maybe the FV group will reject them but I would like to hear them. Can't be considered unless they are brought up. A lot of the ideas are minimal cost cutters for new people but increase the costs of those currently invested. If you add one new and lose two current it doesn't solve the problem.
FV is still the most bang for the buck and still the largest formula class. The decline as I see it has little to do with comparative costs and a lot to do with a poor economy and just less exposure/desire to race cars.
Spec long box gear ratios would reduce cost indirectly over an extended time period, but I can only imagine the whining from people that race in areas with only shortbox tracks that would need to spend in the short-term.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
We race in an area with only short box tracks, however, most everyone I know has a long box in their inventory of spare parts. No whining here.......
With that being said I do believe one of the smartest things that FST did was spec only one 3rd gear ratio and one final drive ratio. No need for multiple transaxles, thus, lower cost racing.
Scott
Jay points out that he built a car and went out and raced it in a 69 car field. I think if a guy could buy a nice $10K FVee and find 30 car fields, multiple times a year, a lot of people would join in. But if healthy fields nationwide were the case, you probably could not find many nice $10K FVees!
Other than the crazy tire expense, I don’t see how to make any significant inroads on cost. I don’t really think that is at the center of the problem. For the experienced guys, fields are not what they used to be and the race grouping issues compound this. It’s easy to start passing on going racing as the quality of the weekend goes down.
As for attracting new folks, I think I am in the minority that believes something needs to be done to update the class. Adjusting valves and drum brakes and swapping transmissions just does not appeal to many people under 40, let alone 25. I remember a comment in this thread that no one is willing to learn new things anymore. I have found that far from true with the 20 to 30-somethings I work with. They love to learn as much as any generation. But no, they are not interested in out-dated automotive technology any more than I was interested in learning how to shoe a horse when I was their age.
I don’t know how to update FVee to attract new people to road racing. The FST rules are as close to a solution that I can think of, that’s why I race one. I do think FV and FST can grow within a given region of the country with grassroots efforts. (Thanks “rgu” for all your FST series work!) Growing either class nationwide, as they are today, to the FF or FV glory days of 30 to 50 car fields seems unlikely.
Just my 2 cents.
Jim
Last edited by Jim Nash; 11.19.14 at 8:17 PM.
Or, spec short box gear ratios. But I can only imagine the whining from people that race in areas with only longbox tracks...Spec long box gear ratios
You missed the point. Lower engine rpm saves cost across the board. Combined with a tall spec tire (23.0 or 22.5), it would only help with engine durability. I expect people will be running shortboxes at Daytona, just as they did at Road America. They are prepared to abuse their engine for the performance advantage, perceived or otherwise. Once one or two do it, then everyone has to follow. Having spec ratios can help prevent that, but specing a shortbox would be counter-productive. If you always run a shortbox, and don't own a longbox, of course you will whine about having to spend $500 to convert it. That is the problem we face when trying to make changes to cut costs. It will cost some people now for the class to save money and be more viable long term.Or, spec short box gear ratios. But I can only imagine the whining from people that race in areas with only longbox tracks...
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Not really, just being a smart*ssYou missed the point.
I just threw out the spec ratios as an option for cutting costs. I don't think we need to hi-jack what has been a positive thread by worrying about whether it will help or hurt each of us.
There can be plenty of time spent in a thread specific to that topic.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
I also feel the the Social Climate has changed. Looking at pictures from the 70's and 80's. Race weekends looked like a family event, no one worried about work, cell phones, laptops. It was a place to go on Sunday afternoon. I bet most people who went with their parents to the races have not even thought about going back with their kids. Either they don't know how or when, or they have not passed the interest down...
Yes, the CASC does offer free tickets to their events, but again do people know where to look for them, or is there is even a race weekend? I do have some family members that come every race weekend religiously, using those passes and love every minute of it.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
I think that cutting / maintaining costs will be a topic on it's own. We all know that will be a battle field, more due to personal opinions than "best interest" of the class. I am surprised the Spec tire thread has not started yet?I just threw out the spec ratios as an option for cutting costs. I don't think we need to hi-jack what has been a positive thread by worrying about whether it will help or hurt each of us.
There can be plenty of time spent in a thread specific to that topic.
The end of the day, Cost control might be part of the solution to maintain current drivers and bring some back to the track.
New blood is going to see the costs at current levels and compared to other Classes we should stand out. Our cars are not as $$$ vs performance driven as the other classes.
We need to be seen, so the Kid/Tween/Mid age/old fart that wants to get into F1600, and realizes that a competitive car cost $$$ and can't afford it, know that there is a highly competitive class the they can race in.
If you think about it. a competitive F1600 25K?? FV/1200. 10K? thats 15K to spend on entry fee's, fuel...Probably a couple of years worth of racing.
Cost control should be a goal of the group? as well as a selling feature.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
Crowd at Road Atlanta:
http://wedgeracing.com/
Scroll down to the bottom of the page and look at the picture.
I think I am missing something. What is your point?
In some of the comments, mine in particular, we have discussed the lack of spectators/fan base at the race tracks. From those people I posit that we draw many future racers. Without that form of "marketing" we might be losing our future drivers.What is your point?
I just happened to remember that Stevan had a pic showing the Atlanta crowd (with a remark about the crowd) in days gone by. As I said in an earlier comment, I know at least 4 racers that were attracted after going to SCCA races (1 FV, the others production cars - those 3 thought formula car drivers were insane
The crowds not there anymore. Harming our future in my opinion. Stevan has some good remarks about why that is the case.
For 10k you can get a FV car capable of running at the front at the Runoffs. Show me where you can get a FF for 25k capable of that? Add another 10k onto your price of 25k & show me where you can get a FF capable of running at the front at the Runoffs? You will be hard pressed to find one.
FV already offers incredible value, there is very little to do to make the class less expensive other then tires which can be saved for another thread.
You are right, you need to get the info out to people who want to race other classes until they realize they don't have the budget for it. If FV won't fit their budget, likely nothing will then.
Steve Bamford
Ok, so let's add a couple more years of racing to the savings.
With all things being equal (Entry, Travel,Food), we have to look at the time spent to be able to competitive race. The FV, while not a "start and go" takes a hell of a lot less time to prep than the other open wheel classes. Also a lot less knowledge (suspension, shocks, corner weights..).
As mentioned in previous posts, maybe we should be marketing with the "other" formula classes? Over the pass 4-5 years I have seen at least 5 drivers make the move from F1200 to F1600 (FF). Never seen a FF driver move to FV.
This is actually good for all classes, as drivers (on their road to F1), build skills, generate more $$$, learn more, move up through the classes. The other classes at the same time, should see this as an opportunity to keep a potential driver in racing to allow them to move up.
Last edited by nbrigido; 11.20.14 at 6:11 AM.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
( On the road to F1 )and 100 000 000 to buy a Seat. Wake up and smell the Coffee. ha, ha.
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
I'm with you on this...need to go to disk brakes and "nicer" rims with spec tires. The cars need to appeal to the younger crowd. Unfortunately the negative comments will come at speed mach 1.5. This will also reduce cost and maintenance....at least I can do it myself.
Spectators....now and then.
Unfortunately it's a global thing. We use to get huge crowds on a Vee day. Back in the eighties Kyalami were packed now only a few. Saw on the Buffalo airport a Kart display with some advertising that grabbed the attention of a few people.In some of the comments, mine in particular, we have discussed the lack of spectators/fan base at the race tracks. From those people I posit that we draw many future racers. Without that form of "marketing" we might be losing our future drivers.
I just happened to remember that Stevan had a pic showing the Atlanta crowd (with a remark about the crowd) in days gone by. As I said in an earlier comment, I know at least 4 racers that were attracted after going to SCCA races (1 FV, the others production cars - those 3 thought formula car drivers were insane
The crowds not there anymore. Harming our future in my opinion. Stevan has some good remarks about why that is the case.
It was amazing when we as South African team raced in the 30th anniversary race at Elkhart Lake(1993) that there were no spectators. There were more then 150 vees entered. This all being said I think we need to do a few things.....
Need to upgrade a bit and make the car and sport attractive to the younger generation.
Promote with displays as the Karts do right now at Buffalo airport.
Awareness of Vee by displays in malls with brochures for the shoppers to take home.
No need to have anybody at the display...silent display would work.
Web site prominently displayed for younger tech/comp savvy generation.
Links to videos, you tube and or promotional on something as small a business cards
We all love our FUNKING Vees...lol. (see photo of actual Vee called Funking Vee raced in the seventies)
*Mosport $ 485 entry fee plus $350 track fee if you want to practice on Friday.
That's how I started at seventeen by attending races as spectator and walking the pit lane with my dad.
Ill say it again!!NOBODY but NOBODY knows what the hell FV/F1200 is!!!Period,you will only get to a VERY few with all your ideas.
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