Buying new belts would like some advice

[mikehinkle]

I'm new to racing and recently bought a formula vee. The car came with what I think is nice Willans 6 point harness but there out of date. I'm looking at my options and of course I'm price shopping. I'm curious what is, if any, the advantage to this type of harness?



It is the "formula" car harness offered by crow enterprizes and its a really good price. It's also the same exact style that is in the car now. The sub marine belts go through a loop in the lap belt and hook onto the shoulder belts. Why is this better or worse then the other sub marine belts that simply click in the bottom?
Any other suggestions besides crow for "formula" belts?
Another questions as well. Crow offers a 2 inch set does this give drivers a lot more freedom in the cockpit or does it just cause the belts to dig in more when tight?

Also it sounds like SFI is going to be good for 5 years now so I'm not worried about them being SFI appose to FIA.

[marshall9]

My choice for 10 years, Crow. When you need to replace them, hopefully not from "Using" them, which is after any major shunt, they will re-web them for around 50-60 bucks, with new certification. I prefer the wider ones, because I feel they distribute g forces over a larger area in a crash, and also cover more area of the HANS . YMMV

[racerdad2]

I have similar belts. The anti-sub belts going thru the lap belts are easier to hook up. Your crew can pull up thru the loop to get some slack to make it easier to get into the harness. Also, much more comfortable.

The Three-into-Two shoulder belts fit into your Hans better.

The belts you've found should work just fine.

[TimH]

+1 Crow

[Steve Demeter]

+2 Crow

[Numbskull XIV]

Schroth and willans are 2 top names and very well liked. 6pt is better than 5 pt. Hook and loop style is more comfortable for formula cars. Camlock is usually preferred over latch n' link. 2" lap is actual better than 3". 3" into 2" shoulder belt is better than 3" when using a Hans. Some like "pull-up" shoulder belts in tight cockpits. "Formula style" harnesses usually just means that their hook and loop and their shorter shoulder belt lengths. Also be sure to follow the correct install when your using with a head n neck restraint. If I recall the shoulder mount should be 4-6" apart and at a 0-10 degree angle below the highest point of your shoulder line.

Jon Updegrove
RF97 Van Diemen FC

[mikehinkle]

So hook and loop is just a comfort thing? Anyone against it? The other system seems a little faster and easier to just click in.
Thanks for the info.
I'll have to call crow to confirm this but if I ordered now the belts would more then likely have 2015 dated on them I assume.

[Rick Kirchner]

the loop system is more effective at stopping you from subbing under in a declined position WHILE saving "the boys". Your legs are often more together in a formula car, so there's no extra clip down there to poke you.

Pyrotect is another good choice. I'd have a Crow set but I bought my protect set first, and they build a nice set of belts with a lot of great features, and re-web for cheap like Crow does.

[ewcmr2]

100% no matter what you choose make sure the lap belts are "pull up"
In a formula car or in a race seat there is no room to pull down. Every time I think everyone knows this I end up crewing/driving a car with pull downs that are nearly impossible to tighten.

[Brian C in Az]

[EACIII]

I perfer the Willians belts with the fix lap belt. A little more effort to set first time but much better fit in tight formula car. Of couse swapping drivers is a PIA. And if you put on some weitgh since last time in the car and hop in to go to the grid you will miss your session.

[mikehinkle]

The Williams belts are fixed lap belts you can adjust them but you have to take the body off to loosen the bolt on part of the harness. The ones pictured look like this as well so you wouldn't have to adjust the lap belts once set. The shoulder belts are pull down and I havnt had a problem getting them tight in the car by myself.

[kea]

I perfer the Willians belts with the fix lap belt. A little more effort to set first time but much better fit in tight formula car.

With that style you always have the same lap belt tension.
I feel the Willans belt hardware is superior.

[mdwracer]

Whats it cost to reweb a set of Willians?

[kea]

We don't re-web, we replace everything including the hardware. Compared to many other yearly costs in racing, once every five years is not much of an issue.

[TimH]

+1 fixed lap belts. Any manufacturer can provide them.

[Garey Guzman]

Adjustable lap belts could potentially come loose. I would never use them.

[stephen wilson]

Adjustable lap belts could potentially come loose. I would never use them.

So could adjustable shoulder belts, but we all have them.

[EACIII]

Yeah but when you click in the lap you suck in and squiss down into your fat. Never have been able to suck in my rib cage.

Ed

[kea]

So could adjustable shoulder belts, but we all have them.

Yes, but those you could re-tension yourself while driving on a pace lap or even on a long straight.

[racerdad2]

I have the fixed lap belts. I have them tight. It takes a grown man to get them buckled. I've never tried getting strapped in by myself. Perhaps I'll give it a go over the Winter.

[dalz]

Not so fast on dismissing lap belt adjusters--Last year I used the latest Schroth formula car belts with lap adjusters. Awesome. All lap belt tightness issues solved. Just have the biggest, strongest guy on your team pull them as tight as you please. And they've never budged once tightened down. My highest recommendation. Only thing unconventional about them is the main buckle is on the right shoulder belt.

I used to be able to get all strapped in myself, then with the advent of HNRs, I had to put my helmet on before I got in, so to get the belts done with your helmet on, forget it.

[Raceworks]

Adjustable lap belts could potentially come loose. I would never use them.

I've never had that problem (or shoulder belts for that matter) as long as the seat's good.

[budawe]

If your seating position is reclined, I strongly suggest a 7 point system. The seventh belt will prevent sliding upwards under rear impact. I have found the NEXGEN the easiest and most comfortable H&N device on the market.

[BLS]

...so to get the belts done with your helmet on, forget it.

I have found that by having the helmet pulled only half way down on my head I can "see" to get the belts fastened. It is a struggle as I have zero room (FV, 6'4' driver). After I get in the car it usually takes me around 5 minutes to get everything done. The last thing is pulling the helmet down and fastening the chin strap, then pulling on the gloves.

YMMV

[racerdad2]

I shall practice the Braille method I have found that there is always someone willing to help buckle you in while in the paddock. Even the rather rare spectator is glad to give a hand

[mmi16]

I have found that by having the helmet pulled only half way down on my head I can "see" to get the belts fastened. It is a struggle as I have zero room (FV, 6'4' driver). After I get in the car it usually takes me around 5 minutes to get everything done. The last thing is pulling the helmet down and fastening the chin strap, then pulling on the gloves.

YMMV

What is this 'see' thing about hooking up belts? For me it is all Braille with my helmet on. I am a one man band at the track without crew. I do get assistance from the Grid workers to get the shoulder belts over top of the HANS, as I can't see or feel the belts into the proper position.

[BLS]

What is this 'see' thing about hooking up belts?

With my helmet on I am unable to see the belts, cannot bend my head down that far. So, I slip the hans on with helmet attached, get in the car, then slide the helmet up my head until I can use my eyes looking down under the helmet. Now I can "see" the belts and the slots they go in, etc. Believe me, if I can do it with my confinement, it can be done. If I have crew I get them to help, but I went to 3 races with no crew and managed. It can be frustrating, but I eventually got used to it. I just have to start a few minutes early.

[Daryl DeArman]

Two lap belt adjusters take up too much space in many formula car cockpits.

Sometimes the shortest distance on an off-the-shelf adjustable lap belt is still too long for a formula car.

If your lap belts are fixed length, you likely don't have them tight enough.

I would get crow 6 point formula harness with one lap belt adjustable, provide them with minimum and maximum lengths of lap belts.

Crow is good people. Their service is excellent. Most folks who distanced themselves from Bill Simpson gets a thumbs-up from me.

[Rick Kirchner]

It sounds simple, but do you really pay attention to how you do it and are consistent? for me it's part of my pre-race psych-up routine, like a batter wacking the clay off his cleats on the way to the plate.

I'm 6', 220, and put on a 94VD like a cheap suit - but I can still get fully belted in with a HANS sans crew. I does take a certain amount of organization and routine, and goofing it up means starting over, but it works.

I use pull-up lap belts, and they're tight, but not uncomfortably so. If you rely on the belts for too much support, then you probably need to re-visit the seat. The laps hold you in, the shoulders hold you back, and the seat keeps you from moving side to side.

I used really long screws with some standoffs to both hold the bodywork on (the mounts close to the mirrors). I put a washer under each screw head and use the left one for a helmet hook, and the right one to hold the HANS. I use small bungees to hold the lap belts upward and forward, and start with the shoulder belts at full length. I tuck the gloves between the steering wheel and dash.

I lay out the sub belts angling together under the dash, climb in, and fasten the lap belt. I reach between my legs and pull up the subs, threading each through the eyes in the lab belts, adding the arm restraints, and then threading through and fastening the shoulder belts. At this point I leave the arm restraints and shoulder belts loose. I secure the bungees to other things in the cockpit, as I once had one grab a glove and it tried to keep me from making a left turn.

I put the HANS around my neck and pull the straps over it, and make sure the tethers aren't tangled. At this point I snug the shoulder straps just enough to keep them from falling off the HANS.

I put the helmet on, do the chin strap, and reach around to do the tethers by feel, tighten the shoulders a lot, and put the gloves on.

The only thing I can see that would make this hard is if there isn't enough elbow room. I compromised on the seat back a bit to make sure I had enough room there.

[alangbaker]

I have found that by having the helmet pulled only half way down on my head I can "see" to get the belts fastened. It is a struggle as I have zero room (FV, 6'4' driver). After I get in the car it usually takes me around 5 minutes to get everything done. The last thing is pulling the helmet down and fastening the chin strap, then pulling on the gloves.

YMMV

I shall practice the Braille method I have found that there is always someone willing to help buckle you in while in the paddock. Even the rather rare spectator is glad to give a hand

What is this 'see' thing about hooking up belts? For me it is all Braille with my helmet on. I am a one man band at the track without crew. I do get assistance from the Grid workers to get the shoulder belts over top of the HANS, as I can't see or feel the belts into the proper position.

With my helmet on I am unable to see the belts, cannot bend my head down that far. So, I slip the hans on with helmet attached, get in the car, then slide the helmet up my head until I can use my eyes looking down under the helmet. Now I can "see" the belts and the slots they go in, etc. Believe me, if I can do it with my confinement, it can be done. If I have crew I get them to help, but I went to 3 races with no crew and managed. It can be frustrating, but I eventually got used to it. I just have to start a few minutes early.

I use a bungee cord to hang my helmet and balaclava above the cockpit and can then do up all my belts before finally reaching up to grab my helmet.

[kea]

Sometimes the shortest distance on an off-the-shelf adjustable lap belt is still too long for a formula car.

Agree

If your lap belts are fixed length, you likely don't have them tight enough.

Disagree

[Matt King]

I've had good luck with lap belts that have one side fixed and the other with pull-up adjustment. Also recommend the narrower 2-inch lap belt. These tend to be easier to get positioned and tightened properly across the hips where they belong.

[Mark_Silverberg]

One trick i have done with sub belts is to have the right belt made in red so I can quickly tell which side goes where.

I find that in my car I can loop the sub belts over the steering column.

I do think the Willans harnesses are a little better that the Crow. I find I need to add the anti loosening springs to the shoulder harnessed on the Crow belts.

I use Crow because I have a unique shoulder mount belt mount system which uses a slotted square tube with a cross bolt and captured spacer. Crow makes the shoulder harness with an upper sewn in loop at the exact length I specify

Detail of upper harness mount is below.

http://s41.photobucket.com/user/roya...tml?sort=3&o=0

[thomschoon]

They will make them to the length you want at no additional costs, pull up or pull down. Have been using them since he opened after leaving Simpson as he was the guy that actually ran the operation before it was sold off and was there from the start, a lot of history and knowledge. A great family business and made in America as well!

[ajpastore]

I also like the Crow harnesses.
Good price and quality.
Now with 5 year SFI they are an even better value.

AP

[scorp997]

Another huge plus for Crow. I had a new 5 point set that sat on a shelf for a sedan project and they became out of date before I could use them. I called about having them recertification or re-webbed and they said if they had never been installed to send them back and they would rework them free of charge.

I also used them when I needed belts for my formula car. I had no idea how long the individual belts needed to be and also felt I should have pull up adjusters on the lap.. The said they could add the pull up adjusters and the lengths could be a foot longer than usual.. I asked for the up charge and they said none would be required! Great service...

Fast forward a year....... The sedan belts I had reworked were used in a Chumpcar, which I unforntunately rolled in a bonehead move (I will take credit for that). They worked flawlessly and I checked to see about having them checked out (again) and explained the circumstance and he said to ship them back and he would rework as necessary and send them back FREE OF CHARGE INCLUDING THE RETURN SHIPPING. That, my friends is great customer service.. Will I recommend them to friends and spread praise about them - Yes!!

My formula belts are due for recertification, and they will get my business again in the future..