Honda vs Kent

[M.Sauce]

So I guess no Kent is competitive at the Runoffs anymore. So someone explain to me exactly how they have been equalized. Because they are obviously not even close anymore. There should be something done to help the Kent or slow down the Honda. It is certainly easier to go a new restrictor on the Honda's. Is anyone else concerned or does anyone care? Maybe it's just that you have to have Honda to be competitive? It just gives 100 Honda powered cars an advantage and handicaps the 500 or so Kent powered cars to be noncompetitive.

[Agitator]

I don't have a dog in the hunt, but it was my loose understanding that during the "transition" they would try and keep parity with the two engines. I didn't think then, and don't think now, that it would be something that would be continued forever. I definitely feel for those still campaigning a Kent. On the other hand, the class HAD to move to a different power plant at some point, and it was handled about as well as it could have been to save the class.

After the Honda engine was approved, I really didn't see a way they could keep parity for very long...and I honestly don't think there's enough interest in doing it now (no matter how simple...or complex, it may be) that a majority of National/Pro drivers have made the change. The SCCA seems more interested in appeasing those that spend lots of $$ racing these days. Member input may still be valued, but when the majority of your members aren't interested in parity, then there's going to be very little done to create it. As I stated before, it sucks for those still running Kents, but I don't see it changing.

[Steve Bamford]

After the Honda engine was approved, I really didn't see a way they could keep parity for very long...and I honestly don't think there's enough interest in doing it now (no matter how simple...or complex, it may be) that a majority of National/Pro drivers have made the change. The SCCA seems more interested in appeasing those that spend lots of $$ racing these days. Member input may still be valued, but when the majority of your members aren't interested in parity, then there's going to be very little done to create it. As I stated before, it sucks for those still running Kents, but I don't see it changing.

If there is something needed to be done it is as simple as adjusting the restrictor size.

[Joefisherff]

When it was sold to everyone as a great way to revitalize the class the commitment was made that there would be testing done both at the dyno and ontrack to maintain parity. The problem is that I don't know, outside of a protest, how this process would be initiated. Does SCCA have a formula that if engine A outperforms engine B at X number of events there is a trigger that initiates parity testing? That is what should happen but I would venture that it's more like, "we are hearing a lot of bitching from X community we probably should throw some resources towards parity". Can anyone on the competition board speak to what initiates parity testing? If it's done here does it need to be done with FC as well?

[Dave SanF 50]

At this year's Runoffs, there were 26 starters in FF. Of these 26, 19 were Honda powered and 7 were Kents. The highest finishing Kent was Livingston @ 9th. The Honda clearly has a "unfair advantage" over the Kent.

Very well stated Agitator. It sucks to be running a Kent.

The best part of this year's Runoff's post-qual inspection was when the inspectors asked to measure my restrictor and see my alternator on my Kent.

The cheapest and easiest way to correct the inequality of the two dissimilar power-plants would be a smaller restrictor on the Honda, don't you think?

[BWC54]

So I guess a new FF lap record was set with the Honda this year?

[John LaRue]

You guys are seasoned enough to know that the fact that there wasn't a certain engine, engine builder, car, tire, etc... on the podium or near the front at Runoffs or other events is not necessarily an indictment of that item's ultimate performance capabilities. To the best of my recollection there hasn't been a Swift at the front of the Pro F1600 field this year, but it certainly doesn't mean that they are not still competitive as we saw in FF at Laguna.

The last empirical data (dyno) that was presented indicated that the current restrictor on the Honda put the two engines very close. Unless and until there is something that would prove that incorrect I would not anticipate any changes based exclusively on finishing positions and/or qualifying times. If there is hard data to consider, please submit such via the letter system so it can be reviewed and considered. The CRB does have the ability to make competition adjustments if the circumstances so warrant.

It is also worth pointing out that most of the serious programs have switched to the Honda in FF and Zetec in FC. Those cars are being raced more frequently and hence developed at a much more aggressive pace than the Kent and Pinto powered cars. Accordingly, I would expect a growing delta in lap times between the cars.

[J Weida]

Are you speaking of the zetec engine development ? If you read the rules this is not what was intended to be done with the zetec.

[problemchild]

Who says there is a parity issue?

Any legitimate analysis and testing would probably result in a larger restrictor on the Hondas.

When the fastest Kent in the country is a 20+ year old car, how are you supposed to draw any meaningful conclusions other than those two dozen well-developed apples are more successful than those few old lonely oranges.

[reidhazelton]

It is also worth pointing out that most of the serious programs have switched to the Honda in FF and Zetec in FC.

Or parked and turned into a garage queen.

[Steve Bamford]

One thing that is missed that should be discussed in this thread is there now is parity at least with Honda's verses Honda's. If you look in the Pro Series no one is complaining there Honda engine is down on power verses another Honda engine, or at least not that I am aware of. If you see the times for WG last weekend for qualifying in Q1 & other events you can see how evenly matched the cars now are. With Kent verses Kent this parity never really seemed to exist from what I have seen.

With that said, I would love to see more Kent cars running but it does take a bigger budget or personal time spent in development to run at the front no matter which engine package you have.

[kea]

The best way to match them, is by adding weight to those cars who are running the dominant engine. That way, if series X wants to keep it as it is, their people need only add the weight at a SCCA club event.
As these newer engines age, there will be components that are no longer available, which will need to be replaced if we want to keep them running. These "replacement" parts may increasing their HP and/or performance curve. Adding to the total running weight is the best way to keep them "in-check.
There are too many cars, in both classes, which are parked because their owners feel the newer, fuel injected motors, have an unfair advantage, so why even show. This hurts the Regions when it comes to car counts for their events.

[John LaRue]

There are too many cars, in both classes, which are parked because their owners feel the newer, fuel injected motors, have an unfair advantage, so why even show. This hurts the Regions when it comes to car counts for their events.

Keith with all due respect there are also likely cars parked because their owners feel that the latest RFR, Radon, Van Diemen, Citation, Spectrum...have an unfair advantage. What we are essentially alluding to here is some type of handicap system based upon the vintage of the car and power plant. I can see a place for that, but I don't know as though SCCA Majors or Runoff's would be that place; perhaps your Regional Series can come up with something.

I was thinking about how SCCA Enterprises is handling the transition to the Gen 3 in SRF which is clearly much more powerful and will instantly make the prior engine package obsolete. They will have a date for the complete change over and then it will be history; no effort at parity there and I don't see too many complaints.

[Wren]

There are too many cars, in both classes, which are parked because their owners feel the newer, fuel injected motors, have an unfair advantage, so why even show. This hurts the Regions when it comes to car counts for their events.

There's not a lot that the SCCA can do about how people feel. I heard people complain about cheating and illegal motors before the Honda came along. People just have something new to complain about.

John said that they were brought proof that the engines are close. If you want something changed, bring them proof that they aren't equal. On track results are meaningless, it's a formula class with a wide variety of cars. The only way to match the results is on a dyno.

[problemchild]

If there is a parity issue, then it is the traditional one. Money! People are now investing in the class. When others cannot or will not, they fall behind. There are more new FFs in North America in the last 4 years than in the last 20.


From the 2013 Honda vs Kent thread, I'm reposting Jonathon Hirst's funny "Honda parity" proposal.

/:sarcasm:ON

The Honda drivers have to "buy" a restrictor from the organizer and they are kept in 3 boxes.
Box 1 has restrictors sized randomly from 29 to 30mm. It costs $3500 to choose from this box.
Box 2 has sizes between 29.5 to 30 mm. $8000
Box 3 has sizes between 30.1 30.5 mm. $12,000
There is a secret 4 th box of 30.6mm restrictors which cost $15000 and you must have made at least 3 purchases from Box 3 in the past 2 years.

You can purchase a new restrictor once a season, or after 15 hours of run time. The parity will not be found on the dyno, but by seeing the Honda drivers having the same uncertainty of end HP, and $ spent for HP, over many seasons as the Kent drivers.

/:sarcasm:: OFF

[mblanc]

/\ /\ /\ /\

Pretty Funny !

Only question, where does all that money go?
to lower the price of our non-spec tires ?

[S Lathrop]

Next year, at Daytons, my bet is that you see a lot of screaming when a few Kents come out of hiding and smoke the field. The Honda revlimiter will become the curse of the Honda runners.

[Swift17]

The published lap record for FF at Daytona was as of May 14, 2014 - back to May of 2005 and Dennis Hoinig @ 2:06.018

At the SARRC finals in September the winner John Benson in a Swift db-3 '89'er went a 2:05.06 (lap 3) and second place Jason Generotti in a db-1 2:05.61 ( lap 11) [both from memory] and both w/ Kents - I'll scan the results tomorrow -There was in the field a Honda Spectrum/Lockwood and a Honda db-6/Morgan - And let us not forget John Robinson will come to play next year.

Query - will someone be selling/mandating Kent Restrictors (Sarcasm)

[M.Sauce]

There is no discounting the fact that the Honda is quicker. The throttle response is way better on the Honda and that makes better lap times. You can say all you want about the age of the chassis. That is less of an issue than the difference between the Kent and the Honda. I watched guys do Honda conversions to their existing chassis and be faster at every track they run at usually by more than a second.

[provamo]

parity worked really well between the Cortina and the Uprated LOL

you cannot turn back the clock

that ship has sailed

whatever

[bobmelvin]

There is no discounting the fact that the Honda is quicker. The throttle response is way better on the Honda and that makes better lap times. You can say all you want about the age of the chassis. That is less of an issue than the difference between the Kent and the Honda. I watched guys do Honda conversions to their existing chassis and be faster at every track they run at usually by more than a second.

On this I am in complete agreement with Mike. At the Runoffs I had a fresh Kent from Curtis in the car and yes, we had some other issues but after running a best of class QS all last year and an even stronger fresh Curtis this year, I can say over the course of two seasons and 30+ events; the throttle response is a killer. I would surmise a tenth every time we go flat on exit. Times ten corners? Do the math. I'm tossing my car in hard just to try to eliminate that scenario. I've seen consistently better entry and mid corner data on my Kent/VD than other Pro Series cars (some share to help each other improve). At Road Atlanta my mid corner speed was significantly higher. By the next gear change, not so much.Torque and throttle response.

Think it through, guys, an ECU and injectors vs. a carb and rotor.

And on the 20 year old chassis comment? Reid Hazelton beat Tim at the Sprints on racecraft and racecraft only (Tim drove the fronts off). There is no way Reid can beat a best of class Honda. My opinion. Certainly not on a regular basis.

I think I'm done taking a Swiss Army Knife to a fight with a semi-auto. I'm not begging anyone to come to the rescue as Honda won't be 'headed'.

Next.

Bob

[S Lathrop]

Years ago I ran (Grodon Smiley drove) a Cortina powered Z10. Gordon started last and by 2/3rd of the race was up to 5th at the Atlanta Run Offs. He then threw the car off the track at corner 5. But a win was posible.

That 50 pound weight advantage is still available and I can build a car to take advantage of that.

Not having a revlimiter, and a 50 pound weight advantage might make a fun study.

[Dick R.]

Older cars and Kent engines still dominate at the National Championships and the vast majority of other Solo (autocross) events.

Dick

[Steve Bamford]

Pro Series seems to be made up of almost entirely Honda cars now. Two events were all Honda & the other five weekends had 2 or so only Kent's running. They can change their rules a lot easier then the Club can so I am wondering if they have any consideration to do so. With the majority of their customers being Honda the answer might be no. Desiring larger grids, as everyone wants in racing, they may consider it.

I have Honda's & Kent's in newer cars. The issue with the Kent is it something that needs more love then the Honda to be in top form.

[provamo]

Years ago I ran (Grodon Smiley drove) a Cortina powered Z10. Gordon started last and by 2/3rd of the race was up to 5th at the Atlanta Run Offs. He then threw the car off the track at corner 5. But a win was posible.

That 50 pound weight advantage is still available and I can build a car to take advantage of that.

Not having a revlimiter, and a 50 pound weight advantage might make a fun study.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm........did the race weight include driver then ?

[M.Sauce]

It is also worth pointing out that most of the serious programs have switched to the Honda in FF and Zetec in FC. Those cars are being raced more frequently and hence developed at a much more aggressive pace than the Kent and Pinto powered cars. Accordingly, I would expect a growing delta in lap times between the cars.

John- totally disingenuous comment. SRF are one chassis ,the kit is cheaper and Enterprises makes all the cars and parts.
The fact is that if SCCA would allow other new engines besides the Honda like the new Ford 1.6 litre like in SRF Gen3 and put a restrictor in it to be consistent with the Honda I would go for that. But Honda is the only option to be competitive they don't make kits for all cars either and won't sell the individual parts unless you buy a kit first. In the past you paid your motor builder to make you have similar power to other Kents now it is impossible unless they give the Ford something or take away from the Honda. Not a even close to level playing field. I guess because there have been new chassis sold we just forget about all the others that fill the grid. I am all for a cost effective alternative engines but 15k kits and no flexibility on individual parts is not going to work for me.

[S Lathrop]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm........did the race weight include driver then ?

Gordon was not very heavy, and the car was ballasted to make the 882 minimum. The rules today would be absolutely 50 less for a Cortina. That would negate a lot of "throttle response" advantage.

[racerdad2]

I've mentioned this before. So, bear with me. This is amateur club racing. The clubs need higher car counts. Kent's & Pintos are old tech that one has to go to great lengths to produce hp, reliability & longevity. Fits & Zetecs have to be reprogrammed & restricted to slow them down & their reliability & longevity are remarkable. You can't beat new tech.

Lot's of Kents & Pintos parked. Nearly all, or possibly all, the new cars are built around the new engines. Why wouldn't you ? They're obviously superior in every way.

In reality, we have four seperate classes. FF Kent. FF Fit. FC Pinto. FC Zetec.

FF-F. FF-H. FC-P. FC-Z.

Or do we just wait a few more years for Kents & Pintos to become vintage cars ?

We're all racing in combined run groups at many events. Wouldn't we all enjoying being on track together with higher car counts ?

FF-F & FF-H. Separate points. Separate podiums.

Ditto for FC-P & FC-Z

Seems to be where this is headed, if not already there. ..

Coming late to this party prompted by 40 year old memories, I'm enjoying the old tech of my youth. It's a wonderful hobby. No way I'd be interested in the old school engines if I were to take this seriously.

Tempis Fugit

[bobmelvin]

Gordon was not very heavy, and the car was ballasted to make the 882 minimum. The rules today would be absolutely 50 less for a Cortina. That would negate a lot of "throttle response" advantage.

Sir:

You'd be proud to know we were weighing in at 1105-7. The scales seemed a bit heavy so we took lead out.

The driver needed two seconds. I'm no Gordon.

Bob

[problemchild]

I watched guys do Honda conversions to their existing chassis and be faster at every track they run at usually by more than a second.

And how much faster would they have been if they spent $15K with Arnie Loyning?

[Offcamber1]

Next year, at Daytons, my bet is that you see a lot of screaming when a few Kents come out of hiding and smoke the field. The Honda revlimiter will become the curse of the Honda runners.

You are likely correct. And if you are, SCCA will likely respond by opening up the restrictors on the Hondas, making them well and truly dominant at every track in the country and driving the final nail into the Kent coffin.

So it goes...

[Daryl DeArman]

John said that they were brought proof that the engines are close. If you want something changed, bring them proof that they aren't equal. On track results are meaningless, it's a formula class with a wide variety of cars. The only way to match the results is on a dyno.

Amen.

[John Merriman]

Lots of really good stuff in this discussion. Bob's little reminder is worth repeating:

"Think it through, guys, an ECU and injectors vs. a carb and rotor."

Parity? Ha! It wasn't possible when the Honda was introduced and is not possible now. Go read the massive number of threads posted when the Honda came along. It was obvious that two such very different powerplants could not be made equal and it was said over and over again. Perhaps on the dyno at a fixed RPM they could. Right. All it takes is the right size restrictor. But we all know there's way more involved than that.

This dream of "parity" was an impossibility then and no one should be surprised that it's still impossible. FF1600 was a SPEC class with all the top engines within one horse or two. Throttle response essentially all the same. FF1600 worked like a charm. Fifty car grids even! Then the class was transformed by the Swift and the wave of new aero chassis. Now the Honda has eclipsed the Kent - in cost, in performance and in desirability. And guys are surprised? As John points out above, the Honda engine is now fitted mostly into super-tech chassis - many of which are then developed to the n-th degree!! (Hey, Roger Penske would be impressed.....but that's amateur racing today....)

Yeah, this will play out with separate classes alright and sure enough, the Kent powered cars will essentially be in a vintage class, a reality that was also seen as inevitable by many back when the Honda showed up. Well, the class is simply edging closer to that reality. Sad in a way....but true nevertheless.

[Dennis Valet]

I'm curious as to how many Kents are actually parked at home simply because the only thing holding them back is an uncompetitive engine. If that's the excuse, it should have been the same excuse for the last 10 years since there were huge jumps in power between a top level and good Kent. If you have a Kent, you've always had the chance that your engine was going to be underpowered.

I realize that the way the Hondas are restricted makes almost all of the Kents an afterthought, but I don't buy for a second that there is any sizable number of cars that would come out of the garage simply because there was a restrictor change.

[TimH]

So many guys say "I only race to WIN" and how many of them really have the skills to reach P1? Until you do, a no-excuses chassis and engine is just a way to face the fact you should have been content having fun back in the pack...

[old 59]

How much faster would the Hondas be without the restrictor?

[NPalacioM3]

I'm curious as to how many Kents are actually parked at home simply because the only thing holding them back is an uncompetitive engine. If that's the excuse, it should have been the same excuse for the last 10 years since there were huge jumps in power between a top level and good Kent. If you have a Kent, you've always had the chance that your engine was going to be underpowered.

I realize that the way the Hondas are restricted makes almost all of the Kents an afterthought, but I don't buy for a second that there is any sizable number of cars that would come out of the garage simply because there was a restrictor change.

Amen.

[DanW]

How much faster would the Hondas be without the restrictor?

Sandy Shamlian, Quicksilver told me the Fit will make 135hp without a restrictor and no more with the current throttle body and ecu map. I watched him strip Jeremy's motor to the bare block and head in the impound tent. I was really impressed with the cleanliness of the castings, machine workmanship and design to make a very robust little motor.

No dog in this hunt, since I am in Club Ford, but I believe the restrictor size needs to be reduced.

[steve zemke]

Just curious as to the specification on alternator belt tension on the Honda engines and if it was checked in tech after the race. A good place to pick up a little hp would be to gut the alternator and loosen the belt. Old FV trick from the 60's.

[mblanc]

I see the new Fit has an L15B (vs L15A currently raced) engine that is now Direct Injected. Does that mean we now know how many A ' s are in the donor pool, and as of '15 ya'all are racing an obsolete no longer produced engine? The 4/5? Years the A was made was longer than I would have thought given automotive engineering trends to change things.