Steering racks?

[Matt Clark]

OK.... I know this is going to make people roll their eyes, but what are the thoughts currently on steering racks? I've talked to or heard from several people that would like to see racks replace the VW box. In fact, no one has been opposed to them yet. This is a lot simpler change than the disk brake stuff. The price of a "new" box is close to a rack last I saw, and a lot better performing overall. I also think there's a safety aspect as well, with Chinese parts coming about & the higher corner loads we see. Being the end of the year, it would be a good time to think about these for 2015. I'd like to see this happen, personally.

[sracing]

Matt, We have a lot of experience with racks and the change is not as simple, safe, or beneficial as you might think.

1. It most all cases it will cause havoc with bump steer. Along with possible ratio issues. The Vees were designed for the VW box. Any change done right will take some engineering.

2. A VW box is about $100. Any new rack at that price is junk. (Plus you need at a minimum, heims (good ones), rods and some welding/fabrication for mounting work. (and probably composite work.)

3. No handling, performance or maintenance gains over a good VW box.

The ONLY advantage is that it is lighter in most cases and they feel better from lock to lock, but on track you never turn more than a few degrees. A decent box can be adjusted for good feel through most of it's range.

[butch deer]

New Evolution racks are almost done and possibly available at Gateway. I have parts complete and need to do final assembly
Butch

[Matt Clark]

Could you guys expand or explain more as to why it would be problematic? I find it surprising a rack creates more issues than the box. Would the ratios not be semi-easy to figure out based on what a stock box does, and the fact FST have been using them? Mounting one (for me at least), shouldn't be a problem. And how much do they cost? Admittedly, I thought the VW boxes were up to $130. I was under the impression they were inexpensive.

[problemchild]

Common steering racks are a performance impairment with the VW style suspension. Don't allow them, if only to keep people from wasting their time and money to go slower.

Custom racks with linkages could be developed by the Hardings and Varacins of the world to mimick the performance of a VW steering rack with custom pitman arm, but that is kinda defeating the idea in the first place. Simply described, it is virtually impossible to locate the steering rack where it needs to be to work with such short steering links. You would need a linkage system similar to the bellcranks used on the Citations.

[B Farnham]

If the racks are so bad then why did fst make the switch?

[rgu]

The feel and the durability of a FST rack is great. They have been involved in a few crashes and from 40 years experience if those had been TRW VW boxes they would be trash. As a matter of fact I just tossed five TRW boxes that over the years took a hit. I was keeping them to salvage a few parts. They are now gone.

If you really want to buy a rack that would retain the Vee geometry there are high quality center steer racks. The $100 ones you buy at LR (PM me for the name of this company) are junk. The good ones are $500-600. I have some pics.

As Butch said we are producing another run of our racks. It features a new housing designed by George Podgorski and I can't wait to see it at Gateway. George has a stage II design in the wings that uses std rack and std off shelf pinion gears.

Open your eyes and look at the Aussie Vees. All the new ones have RP steering. Only here is it antiques roadshow.

[problemchild]

If the racks are so bad then why did fst make the switch?

Perception. At best, it is a sideways step but certainly not an improvement. Had I built another FST car, it would have used a steering box. The ideal spot for the rack is right where the balls of your feet are when you are hard on the brakes or the gas .... which leaves the steering links on angles, making the rack more vulnerable to wear and damage. It also makes it difficult to steer, brake, clutch, or throttle.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to have an open discussion about this issue as the FST guys get all defensive. The FST package of components is an excellent combination of parts that collectively solves many problems that FV has. I am a fan! Taking individual components and trying to insert them into FV does not have the same effectiveness. IMO, the rear brakes and the steering racks are the two weakest parts of the package, and should be the very last parts considered. You can also use the argument, that if people want to spend their money to make their cars slower, we should let them. I don't think that is good for the class.

Its not a new problem in automotive engineering. Transverse engines make steering design a lot easier. How do you design steering around a big block V-8?

[rgu]

goes right where your footballs

[rgu]

I don't know why this didn't come through initially but here is pic.

Maybe I didn't wait for the upload.

[Matt Clark]

Interesting to see FST guys at opposite ends of the opinion scale. Out of curiousity, besides the Evolution racks pictured, what racks are you guys using?

[Rolling Stone]

The feel and the durability of a FST rack is great. They have been involved in a few crashes and from 40 years experience if those had been TRW VW boxes they would be trash. As a matter of fact I just tossed five TRW boxes that over the years took a hit. I was keeping them to salvage a few parts. They are now gone.

If you really want to buy a rack that would retain the Vee geometry there are high quality center steer racks. The $100 ones you buy at LR (PM me for the name of this company) are junk. The good ones are $500-600. I have some pics.

As Butch said we are producing another run of our racks. It features a new housing designed by George Podgorski and I can't wait to see it at Gateway. George has a stage II design in the wings that uses std rack and std off shelf pinion gears.

Open your eyes and look at the Aussie Vees. All the new ones have RP steering. Only here is it antiques roadshow.

Last two lines are are right on the button as well as hell of a funny...Antiques roadshow!!I love it :>)

[problemchild]

Open your eyes and look at the Aussie Vees. All the new ones have RP steering. Only here is it antiques roadshow.

Do the Aussies still run fans and fan shrouds?

[Rolling Stone]

Do the Aussies still run fans and fan shrouds?

No!

[problemchild]

No!

Oh? I apologise for assuming that because they have no cooling scoops they must be running the VW fan configuration. If you are starting a new class, choosing perception over function is a very valid approach. When you are going to have to move mountains to change a SCCA rule to a 51 year old class, based on perception over function, it might not be the best use of the community's focus.

[rgu]

Just thought I’d try to answer Matt’s question. Most people run what you call the Evolution rack called that because it was first used-- on the Evo cars. I used this on all the cars I’ve built and we have just commissioned a run of a dozen of these. Butch Deer is the source for more information. It is not the rack pictured in my last post that one is built by Wright Place in the San Diego area and I don't know if they still make it. A number of our cars use the Stiletto rack which is used on off road and on a number of small circle track cars. I know the Chassis Shop in Michigan sells this unit and spares.
Check http://secure.chassisshop.com/partdetail/C42-348/

[BLS]

I apologise for assuming that because they have no cooling scoops they must be running the VW fan configuration.

I also think they do. I have some pictures of cars with fan housings. Maybe they are older.

[Stan Clayton]

All the new ones have RP steering. Only here is it antiques roadshow.

LOL...reminds me of a question/comment I overheard in the paddock yesterday...

Attractive lady to male companion: Aren't those cars (FVs) supposed to be racing?

Man: They ARE racing, dear...that's as fast as they go.

*rotflmao*

[G_J_Podgorski]

Regarding whether the "Down Under" cars, 1200 and 1600, run fans (shrouds, belts and all), yes they do. That is also the primary reason that the cars sport low mount exhaust systems.

[Rolling Stone]

Regarding whether the "Down Under" cars, 1200 and 1600, run fans (shrouds, belts and all), yes they do. That is also the primary reason that the cars sport low mount exhaust systems.

Yes...we all knew that really

[csingletary01]

Appletree Auto specializes in VW parts for the Dune Buggy, Sand Car market. They have racks for all type of VW applications. They have center steer as well as end steer styles.

www.appletreeauto.com

[B Farnham]

.

[dd46637]

What started as a request for information is now a comparison between the two classes?
What do lap times in the rain at the Glen have to do with steering racks in FV.
Seems like every time someone asks a question about a part that's used on a FST the thread always takes a turn in this direction

[Amon]

DD:

Maybe you should ask Stan Clayton why he felt the need to post his latest comment!

Mark

[B Farnham]

Why is it anytime FV asks about a part that FST uses the FST guys say its a terrible idea?

I'm in favor or racks

[SamF]

Appletree Auto specializes in VW parts for the Dune Buggy, Sand Car market. They have racks for all type of VW applications. They have center steer as well as end steer styles.

www.appletreeauto.com

My $98 rack from Appletree is on it 3rd season and has been a most robust part. I have banged it by bending spindles and tie rods and the rack has just taken the beating and it keeps working just fine. I have never driven a Vee, and most likely never will, so I can't say if it is better or worst than the VW steering box, but I can say my cheap rack has worked great.

[Stan Clayton]

DD:

Maybe you should ask Stan Clayton why he felt the need to post his latest comment!

Mark

That's easy, it was in response to the comment about 'antique roadshows'. You know...the 80-year old engine and suspension designs used in the class.

Oh, and since I owned an FV...NOT an FST, it is my class.

And you should have heard my GT1 customer's comments about the B-Spec cars going by...

[Doug FST 5]

Why is it anytime FV asks about a part that FST uses the FST guys say its a terrible idea?

Turn down the BS please.....

For the record,

I never want to adjust the vw drums again.
I never want to set up a link pin beam again.
I never want to swap from short to long box and back again.
I don't want to lose the race to a thousand dollar manifold (good ones were "only" $700 when I last raced a FV.
I don't want to buy tires and use them for only one or two hundred miles again.

Doug FST 5

[sracing]

Why is it anytime FV asks about a part that FST uses the FST guys say its a terrible idea?

Most often because it is a terrible idea. At least for FV. And based on the acceptance of any changes so far to FV, it seems most people feel the same way.

I'm in favor or racks

That is fine. Don't listen to the critical comments. Just get some support and make it happen.

BTW, FST guys do not always say it's a terrible idea. We have just pointed out the downside. To the contrary, many FST parts would be a good idea for FV. But the disc brake concept floated by the SCCA was a terrible idea for either class. (It was not a FST part.) Want to just use long boxes like FST? Great good idea. Want to use a 1600 dry sumped engine? Great idea. But some things are a terrible idea.

FST is a PACKAGE. Just because that package works well, doesn't mean picking and choosing from the package will work as well.

I supported drop in electronic ignition FV. (Like FST)

[veefan]

Lov these posts, they are great reading material. I wonder why are all the Vee guys, asking or thinkin about disk brakes... ball joint beams... different wheels... and now racks... ? FST Solved all your problems come to the light children.. lol

I did a FST conversion on a Caracal D, installed a very inexpensive rack, it was 1/2 the price of a new TRW Vee box, installed Larrys ackerman arms, and it was a DREAM, no bump, smooth, no adjusting and amazing steering at every corner at Limerock. I drove 4 different Vees at Limerock, at the top of the hill the car would catch air & get light (that was cool lov the track but...) every Vees was unpredictable! The FST with the $100 rack

WAS AMAZING!







p.s. I'm an accountant and not an engineer and the rack install was piece of CAKE!

[BLS]

I drove 4 different Vees at Limerock, at the top of the hill the car would catch air & get light (that was cool lov the track but...) every Vees was unpredictable! The FST with the $100 rack WAS AMAZING!

I'm happy you like your FST. But, I hope you do not think the rack had anything to do with " the car would catch air & get light".

[Matt Clark]

Thank for the input everyone, both here & via emails outside. As I said earlier, it's interesting to see the varying opinions. Whether or not any actual progress is made, I think it's good (at times) to discuss aspects of the car point by point. It helps newer guys understand the history & reasons behind where we are today.

I did kind of expect this to be a FV vs. FST thread before long, I wasn't disappointed. Both sides need to realize that FV needs to advance at least a little at some point, and that little steps are at least perceived as easier to swallow that an all at once conversion. We just need to learn & understand which things to start with.

One of the issues that stuck out to me was talking about bump steer. I see & understand what you guys mean. I was looking at the center-steer racks instead of the end-steer ones. They seemed to make more sense.

Also, for the record, we literally JUMP the FVs at the Weatherly Hillclimb more than a foot off the ground, mid-corner no less. Not sure why they'd be more unpredictable than other cars at Lime Rock.

[problemchild]

Both sides need to realize that FV needs to advance at least a little at some point

Why?

BTW, I'm in favor of almost anything that will reduce cost and/or increase accessibility.

[Matt Clark]

Lack of (quality) parts, cost, ease of maintenence or even visual appeal for new drivers off the top of my head.

I know FV will more than likely never evolve to FST spec, but the raw truth is we cannot sustain exactly as we have unchanged forever. And at the same time, I don't think the class will die over certain small things being allowed to make the existing ones more user friendly (ie: Petronix or the new connecting rods).

[2BWise]

I've no longer got a dog in this fight, but having owned and driven several Vees and FSTs the rack is so much better. Purely from a feel/feedback standpoint the rack is orders of magnitude better. There is still some room to make it even better. The steering box pulls so much of the feedback out of the wheel that I always have struggled to get a good read on what the front of the Vee was up to.

[veefan]

I'm happy you like your FST. But, I hope you do not think the rack had anything to do with " the car would catch air & get light".

No, clearly not, I was referring to the steering staying more true in the FST.

[Mark Filip]

Lov these posts, they are great reading material. I wonder why are all the Vee guys, asking or thinkin about disk brakes... ball joint beams... different wheels... and now racks... ? FST Solved all your problems come to the light children.. lol

All Vee guys ask about these parts?
How long did you see the light?
How many times did you run the FST?

I did a FST conversion on a Caracal D, installed a very inexpensive rack, it was 1/2 the price of a new TRW Vee box,

The rack cost $70?

installed Larrys ackerman arms, and it was a DREAM, no bump, smooth, no adjusting and amazing steering at every corner at Limerock.

How fast were you running? With larger FST tires at FV speeds most cars will feel amazing.

I drove 4 different Vees at Limerock, at the top of the hill the car would catch air & get light (that was cool lov the track but...) every Vees was unpredictable! The FST with the $100 rack WAS AMAZING!

Every Vee was unpredictable or just the ones you built?

Sorry John but you build a car and a month later you sell it, why? How can you have all this feedback without track time?

[veefan]

All Vee guys ask about these parts?
How long did you see the light?
How many times did you run the FST?

The rack cost $70?

How fast were you running? With larger FST tires at FV speeds most cars will feel amazing.

Every Vee was unpredictable or just the ones you built?

Sorry John but you build a car and a month later you sell it, why? How can you have all this feedback without track time?

Ok so, EVERY Vee I ran was set up by Steve Pastore, I didn't like the handling or the feel of the cars, so I kept selling them to try and find one I liked, gave up sold them all and build an FST, loved it and had to sell it to pay my wife medical bills who has CANCER! JERK!

[veefan]

Really Personal Attacks, Doug, PRU, Bill ???

[Mark Filip]

Ok so, EVERY Vee I ran was set up by Steve Pastore, I didn't like the handling or the feel of the cars, so I kept selling them to try and find one I liked, gave up sold them all and build an FST, loved it and had to sell it to pay my wife medical bills who has CANCER! JERK!

I asked questions and somehow I'm a jerk? How would I have known your wife has cancer and that was the reason for you to sell the car? From some of your previous post you sold the FST and purchased a F1000? Is that also not true?