Steering racks?

[veefan]

fvracer27,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fvracer27
All Vee guys ask about these parts?
How long did you see the light?
How many times did you run the FST?

The rack cost $70?

How fast were you running? With larger FST tires at FV speeds most cars will feel amazing.

Every Vee was unpredictable or just the ones you built?

Sorry John but you build a car and a month later you sell it, why? How can you have all this feedback without track time?"

Does any of you're post have anything to do Matts post or is it personally questioning me?

[veefan]

Sorry Matt, I wish this thread would say on topic.

I guess all the moderators are at the runoffs.

John

[Mark Filip]

fvracer27,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fvracer27
All Vee guys ask about these parts?
How long did you see the light?
How many times did you run the FST?

The rack cost $70?

How fast were you running? With larger FST tires at FV speeds most cars will feel amazing.

Every Vee was unpredictable or just the ones you built?

Sorry John but you build a car and a month later you sell it, why? How can you have all this feedback without track time?"

Does any of you're post have anything to do Matts post or is it personally questioning me?

Are you serious? Yes they are questions for you. Can you answer them?
And yes I think it has a lot to do with this post. If your going to make statements like all FVs are unpredictable and racks cost half as much as a box you should be able to answer a few questions. Retail price on a TRW box is $139 form a ton of VW vendors so can I buy a rack for $70? What lap times did you run when the FST felt amazing? My 58 Bug handles amazing at 55 mph but is a bucket of crap at 75 mph, will a rack fix my problems?

Also your saying Steve (a guy who has set up many high level national cars) set up 4 FVs for you that were unpredictable but set up your FST and it was amazing first session out? I don't know anyone that builds a car makes that amount of changes to a car and it's amazing first time out. Sounds fishy

Post #2 by Jim and post #5 by Greg are posts with statments that can be backed up not based on 1 or 2 sessions of driver feel.

People throw these statements around all the time on here and can never back it up with facts or experience and sometimes can lead new drivers down the wrong path.

[veefan]

fvracer27,

Why are you calling me out?

how may vee's have you purchased, how may vee's have you raced, how many vee's have you been on the podium with?

ANSWERS, FACTS

you
1,
1,
none

p.s moderators, let the thread roll, I'm game, John.

p.s.s I know you're upset cauz you didn't buy my Womer that was the NARRC champ Vee but that's cool we all make mistakes.

Yea my F1000, FB Deal didn't work out, but that's business, my MISTAKE.

[veefan]

What has any of this got to do with Matt's questions?



ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS>
1) I never said I'm the best Vee racer??? are you?

fyi Sorry I've never tracked day a 58 bug, but if you'd like to track day my 76 Turbo PCA car let me know, Happy to give you a driving lesson.

2) LOV Steve PASTORE, he's a first class guy, and his lil Bro would kick both our butt's in any car, whats your point. (Andy is FAST is a VEE!)

3) Not sure what your question is??? Greg and Jim know me well, both are pros that know a lot more about Vee's, I respect them both.

4) New drivers read these posts and... run... sorry new guys. FV IS a class act of RACERS,,, well, most if them, call VeeSport, NOBEL, Campbell, Autowerks, Peak, ETC. they will all point you in the right direction.

p.s.s.s sorry Matt

[Matt Clark]

No need to apologize. I'm gaining info & being entertained.

[Mark Filip]

Exactly what I thought
You won't answer 1 question to back your statements not 1

[veefan]

I'll be wearing them eye glasses and eating popcorn...? SUNDAY at 9:30 A.M ough (bacon and eggs for me), hoping for no a.m. fog...

http://scca.growsites.net/

Good luck guys, be safe!

[veefan]

1) question 1, answer....1

yes i've have used a rack in place of a vw box at the same track

i' used both old vw and a new trw boxES at the same track have you?

I'VE seen a vast improvement, have you tried both?

Again, how many vee's have you driven and raced,,,

[Mark Filip]

1) question 1, answer....1

yes i've have used a rack in place of a vw box at the same track

i' used both old vw and a new trw boxES at the same track have you?

I'VE seen a vast improvement, have you tried both?

Again, how many vee's have you driven and raced,,,

Answer the questions I asked to back up what you said not ones you make up. you can't do it

Oh and you will be a little early if your going to watch the race at 9:30 am Sunday so get extra popcorn

[Tiago Santos]

What an embarrassing thread. Can we move this to the Spec Miata forum or something?

[gbmetcalf]

Answer the questions I asked to back up what you said not ones you make up. you can't do it

Oh and you will be a little early if your going to watch the race at 9:30 am Sunday so get extra popcorn

No need to apologize. I'm gaining info & being entertained.

[Rolling Stone]

Its just like the pit area after a NASCRAP race in here!!

[gbmetcalf]

HEY Matt don't Hog all the popcorn! Pass it over.

[veefan]

Oh and you will be a little early if your going to watch the race at 9:30 am Sunday so get extra popcorn

REALLY, Again, assumptions, vs. facts...fvracer27 do you have a clue where I am?

I had my bacon and eggs at the track and watched the FV race live? Darn no popcorn in the hospitality tent!

Sitting in the airport waiting for my flight, finally got some popcorn in the terminal.

Perfect weather, amazing day! First time at this track for me, watching, not racing very cool course. TV does not do this track justice, elevation changes are crazy.

GREAT RUN Harry Schneider!!!!!

[Bill Bonow]

I'm sure the initial cost will be high and extra mods will be required, but this gets my vote for best FV rack.

PS, just back from the "Runons" and a fantastic 12th to 4th by our customer in P2
PSS, chill out on the BS (everyone). The FV zombies (not the FST guys) will make sure that progress never takes place.

[gbmetcalf]

Thanks
Bob
Was entertaining for a little while but flew off topic a few times.
And Matt kept hogging the popcorn!

G.

[Rolling Stone]

I'm sure the initial cost will be high and extra mods will be required, but this gets my vote for best FV rack.

PS, just back from the "Runons" and a fantastic 12th to 4th by our customer in P2
PSS, chill out on the BS (everyone). The FV zombies (not the FST guys) will make sure that progress never takes place.

Good to see someone keeping Abreast of the situation

[problemchild]

I find it interesting that some people would choose the terms "much better", "a dream", and "AMAZING" to describe the steering on a FST car. I personally would NEVER put any of these cheap racks (without the wide bearing supports) on my car. They scare me. I cannot contribute any engineering expertise to my opinion but after 35+ years of reasonably successful race car preparation, I trust my instinct. I have nothing against the racks that Butch and George are developing/building. I do not expect I can buy them for $79 or get them from the wrecking yard for free like I did with my FV boxes.

My Problemchild SM2 FST car used a $800 "jack Knight" rack from a Crossle FF. I also drove another FST car with the common rack. As a driver, I certainly had no sense that the steering was "much better", "a dream", or "AMAZING" in comparison to the dozens of FVs that I drove. As a car builder, I was frustrated by the "poor performance" of the rack in suspension design and operation. My next design was to use a VW box and Adams linkage.

Perhaps I am a less sensitive driver ..... but a dream? My FST car drove and felt like a FV. It raced like a FV. If I had my eyes closed ( I love that humerus analogy), I would not know I was driving a FST car, other than that I'm passing all these other FVs, rarely buying tires, and spending all my money to travel many 100s of miles instead of racing locally.


Also, note that since I checked out that Appletree link, I am getting Appletree spam!!!!

[Doug FST 5]

I would agree that the suspension design is better on paper with the VW box than the rack. I think we all know that the VW beam front suspension has its limitations. Overall the cars feel pretty much the same in the steering feel department to me. The best thing is I've had my share of minor to mid-level shunts with an FST so far and have not damaged a rack yet outside of bending up the clevis' at the ends. I'd say that's a big advantage against the VW box that would seem to get messed up in relatively minor incidents.

Doug FST 5

[Johan W]

Hi Matt

Formula Vee South Africa have them built for the Vees at prices cheaper then a new box. Cheap and easy to get from SA. Your welcome to take my Vee for a spin end of next year. Just going to do the 50th anniversary race and 2hr endure in September 2015 before shipping it to Canada. Going to play with it in the Libre class as it's a watercooled Vee.

[Matt Clark]

I appreciate the offer. That would be very cool. Might be neat to do on a 2016 weekend when I come to Canada with my car. Pretty far out, but we'll see.

[Bill Bonow]

South African FV is just a tick more "over the top" that FST

[Johan W]

Bill you can have the yellow vee from Ben Pienaar in the photo for $8000 plus shipping. How is that for cost and over the top. It's reliable and well sponsored(All Vees get free tyres, plugs from NGK and Oil from Castrol). Only over the top is the computer(Stack?) systems that most of them now have.

You can have a Vee built to spec and competitive(Rhema II) like the red one on the photo for less then $ 10000.

[Johan W]

Bill and Matt

Here's photos of my Harrier with 1300 aircool engine 79-81
Also photo of my Vee that's inbetween Golf engine and drum brakes that got the attention of the news media and started a huge interest in Vees. Then on the last photo my 14th Vee that I've built that won the constructors champs.

You will also notice that we went from one weber to two as the manifolds became a policing issue.

ps. " Bruce Gedenk" meaning Memorial race for my team mate that lost his life after the previous race.

[SamF]

Hi Matt

Formula Vee South Africa have them built for the Vees at prices cheaper then a new box. Cheap and easy to get from SA. Your welcome to take my Vee for a spin end of next year. Just going to do the 50th anniversary race and 2hr endure in September 2015 before shipping it to Canada. Going to play with it in the Libre class as it's a watercooled Vee.

Johan,

So where does one find information about this neat little rack? Manufacture price etc.

[Johan W]

SamF will call Peter Hills to get a price. I can bring a few with me when I'm going to SA for the 2hr endurance Vee race and 50th anniversary bash.

[Johan W]

[QUOTE=Matt Clark;448040]OK.... I know this is going to make people roll their eyes, but what are the thoughts currently on steering racks? I've talked to or heard from several people that would like to see racks replace the VW box. In fact, no one has been opposed to them yet.


Matt the first race next year will see a f1200 with a steering rack as test project. We agreed on our AGM to go ahead with the testing. Kevin Kapelke will have his Vee converted by his dad. Will keep you updated.

[G.B.]

Jurgen Kapelke stated at the recent F1200 meeting that steering boxes are becoming hard to find and wanted to try a steering rack as an alternative.

Generally, I am opposed to change, unless it is a safety issue or the original parts are becoming scarce or ridiculously expensive, then I believe we should look at alternatives.

Last time I needed a steering box, I had no trouble finding one, but I might have been lucky. So my question is:

Are steering boxes becoming difficult to obtain?

Guy.

[sracing]

Are steering boxes becoming difficult to obtain?
Guy.

Not at all. (at least as of a month ago) New TRW boxes are available for under $100 and rebuilt ones are available for about $60. However, many people complain about the quality of the new boxes. (amount of slop.) I have been able to adjust most all to a decent feel.

[blackhole]

Not at all. (at least as of a month ago) New TRW boxes are available for under $100 and rebuilt ones are available for about $60. However, many people complain about the quality of the new boxes. (amount of slop.) I have been able to adjust most all to a decent feel.

In our new car this year we put a brand new TRW steering box in. Already from day one there was play. By mid season the "play" was unacceptable. We continually adjusted the box throughout the year. By the end of season there was no room to adjust anymore. Our steering box is done. So we are experimenting with a rack and pinion that you can buy from CIP1. Here it is http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.as...de=C26-425-155

It is a centre steer design so it shouldn't hurt the bump steer. We will be able to use the same tie rod lengths as with the box. It bolts right into the BRD no welding. This steering rack came out of a Formula FST that was raced in Libre in Canada for more than 10 years. So it has held up to punishment.

[Campbell Motorsport]

The majority of the cars I built I did not use the TRW box- but installed used/ rebuilt/ OEM/ VW boxes. They are probably getting harder to find, but find a decent one and you will have it for a long time, it was worth the effort.

Larry Campbell

[Johan W]

Not at all. (at least as of a month ago) New TRW boxes are available for under $100 and rebuilt ones are available for about $60. However, many people complain about the quality of the new boxes. (amount of slop.) I have been able to adjust most all to a decent feel.

What came out after discussions at our AGM is that there's a few that wants the rack for one valid reason. The rack leaves more space to the "Big-foot" drivers and the same for the taller guys that want the extra space it allows.

I've mentioned before that we would see the first f1200 from Kevin Kapelke running a rack at the first race in Canada. Jurgen will do the modification for us to see and compare.

I raced with both the rack and box. Prefer the rack over the box but don't see any difference in handling at all. Just more up to date and relevant in this time and age.

[Mark Filip]

SamF will call Peter Hills to get a price. I can bring a few with me when I'm going to SA for the 2hr endurance Vee race and 50th anniversary bash.

Can anyone share the price of these racks?

[problemchild]

What came out after discussions at our AGM is that there's a few that wants the rack for one valid reason. The rack leaves more space to the "Big-foot" drivers and the same for the taller guys that want the extra space it allows.

Then they should move the steering box to a location like the Womer or RTJ which will provide more foot room than the rack mentioned, without bastardizing cars.

[Johan W]

Can anyone share the price of these racks?

Will get the price by Monday...will also do my best to get the landed price in US/Canada.

[Johan W]

Then they should move the steering box to a location like the Womer or RTJ which will provide more foot room than the rack mentioned, without bastardizing cars.

Greg...It's not only the space but it adds to safety. Leon Guisti ended his racing career after many years when he flipped his vee into the Armco barriers at Kyalami. The steering box crunched his ankle. This was still in the air cool era. Due to this(maybe freak accident we thought and many argued) we started to look at steering racks. Years later and many heated arguments we as committee decided to go ahead after we had a similar accident at the Durban Classic Street race.

Allow them racers to change as this is a safer, uncluttered and more relevant option with no added speed or performance as per my experience.

[Johan W]

Generally, I am opposed to change, unless it is a safety issue Guy.

Guy it's also a safety issue as you can see in the photo attached. I was the chairman when we pushed for the change of steering boxes to racks. We had two serious accidents where the drivers were badly injured by the steering box pushing down on their ankles.

Leon Guisti ended his career in this vee(photo attached) due to the steering box crushing his ankle. He lost his job due to this physical disability. I've lived and breathed all the arguments for and against but pushed for change....it worked well as did the change to disc brakes. I understand the fear of change and the uncertainty, but was surprised at the end result.

[Mark Filip]

Greg...It's not only the space but it adds to safety. Leon Guisti ended his racing career after many years when he flipped his vee into the Armco barriers at Kyalami. The steering box crunched his ankle. This was still in the air cool era. Due to this(maybe freak accident we thought and many argued) we started to look at steering racks. Years later and many heated arguments we as committee decided to go ahead after we had a similar accident at the Durban Classic Street race.

Allow them racers to change as this is a safer, uncluttered and more relevant option with no added speed or performance as per my experience.

Looking at that picture it's clear not having a steering box in there would not have prevented much of anything, something would have injured his ankles and perhaps the steering box may have stopped the Armco from severing off his ankles.

That alone is not good data to base safty on 2 accidents with no way to know for sure a rack would have prevent a injury. Only thing it does is scare
People into thinking they will loose there feet now.

And as far as foot box room Greg is 100% correct in my Womer Bigfoot could easily work the pedals.

[veefan]

fvracer27 is totally right, box or no box, I'm not seeing how someone couldn't come out of that wreck without some bad ankle injury's.

Could a steering rack have made his injury's worse? Try and figure out where the rack would end up in that picture? Racks are not bending like mild steel, so I'm guessing it's coming down on his shins or knees also.