what gives ???

[Rick Kean]

DQ's big in FL

Fans aren't the problem, it's the Batteriesssss.
(1 Starter Battery + 1 Alternator + 1 Fan/Exchanger) / Car

Besides, if 'you' weigh 130#, your engineer should be made redundant if heat exchange isn't on the top of the list; fans or no.

It don't cost Money, jus' a little bit a Month.

[Wren]

Before this goes too far off topic:

How many current competitors have fans on their cars? Roux has one. It sounds like at least one pro team has them on their cars, but the pro series seems to do pretty well managing their own rules. I don't think those cars are also entering club races.

Anyone else?

The arguments for and against the fan ban seem to stack up like this:

For
1. Expensive development war is starting.

Against
1. Some competitors currenly have them.
2. They might help in some regions of the country(are regions allowed to "exclude" parts of the GCR in the supps?)
3. Its a conspiracy by shadowy manufacturers to make money by selling parts to exploit not using fans, even though they already built their cars around not using fans.

[Steve Bamford]

I don't think any Pro team has them on their cars as of yet, I could be wrong. The idea likely came from one of the front running teams though. Bob was not aware that Chip asked any teams to remove fans but Mike E did mention that earlier so I am unsure they were used or not.

As you stated, Pro Series can manage themselves very easily.

[Daryl DeArman]

The pro series races are much closer, want to make it illegal there, why not make it a supplemental rule for the pro series only?

Pro Series can manage themselves very easily.

That's what I thought the simplest solution would be. Mike E. implied that the trickle down of pro cars to club cars would be harmed.

[Bob Wright]

After digging into this a bit more, it seems to me there are a couple of things going on here.

1) The permissibility of fans has been in the class for, shall we say, a long time.
2) The FF Honda has a "flaw" in the ECU that retards the timing above a certain temperature that can possibly be corrected by adding fans.
3) This timing change can affect the outcome of a race in a tightly contested contest,
almost requiring a proper team to attempt a fix, such as fans.
4) A Pro team had fans on their cars briefly and were politely asked to remove them for the sake of sportsmanship (which they graciously did) pending resolution of the broader ECU issue by the Series.

Now, I would venture it is not accurate to say Honda won't change the ECU; however being an engineering company, they need concrete data before they do anything and need to thoroughly research what to do and how to do it.

The current fans in and of themselves are not expensive, and relatively easy to install. Its what a good engineer might be able to do with them that I think has people wound up.

The development of the F1600s in the Pro series is already progressing in many subtle ways, fans or no fans. Its being done within the rules. I'm not sure banning the fans will change that. The "gobs" of money being spent (if it is), will be spent in any case.

It appears the CRB is trying to head off an aero technology war in FF/FC before it happens. They can't, and shouldn't stop all innovation in the class. Banning the fans will stop some of the spending, but by no means all or even the majority of it.

As I said earlier, the simplest way to cure the current issue is to change the Honda ECU. The fans will require a little more information and thought.

[Dennis Valet]

People will always spend money if they have it, this is true. You can't stop someone from spending their money. The only thing you can do is make sure their spending has early diminishing returns.

[a. pettipas]

Mmmmm, gravity defying Oreos
Have to pitstop & join the DQ Blizzard Fan Club

I like this guy's idea.

[racerdad2]

Let's see... Honda changes ECU to run full power at higher temps. Then, competitors run smaller vents/rads to take advantage of 'improved' ECU mapping. Engines now run even hotter in the draft. Bigger fans ? Shorter engine life ?

[Peter Olivola]

It's been my experience that cast iron heads benefit from running hot while Aluminum heads go in the other direction. Why would anyone using an aluminum head engine reduce their radiator size if temps are already climbing above optimum?

Let's see... Honda changes ECU to run full power at higher temps. Then, competitors run smaller vents/rads to take advantage of 'improved' ECU mapping. Engines now run even hotter in the draft. Bigger fans ? Shorter engine life ?

[racerdad2]

Pure conjecture. JAWAG

[Art Smith]

it's called "formula car" racing because there's a formula. cars change to remain compliant with the formula, not visa versa! the formula in this area has never been changed in almost 50 years and clearly I'm of the opinion is still doesn't need changing! in my mind, the presented facts do not come even close to making a case for change and a disapproved decision should be straight forward based solely on the technical merits of the change as presented.

however, professional decision makers are taught that the adverse consequences of all options must be considered before making a final decision (see for example The Rational Manager or New Rational Manager by Kepner & Tregoe). as alluded to earlier in this thread by another poster, the club has recent experience dealing with the adverse consequences of changing the formula to exclude existing/emerging compliant technology. my documentation (GCR's) from the middle '70's to middle '80's isn't what it should be but it's my recollection the rule involved in this recent lawsuit was changed in 1986 as part of the chassis rewrite. the important point to be observed, the formula in that case had already been changed for clarity/verifiability once almost 30 years ago. even given the amount of data the club had, the club's position apparently wasn't "worth" defending! the proposed change banning fans in my opinion leaves the club with a position to defend at least an order of magnitude worse: 1.) the formula in this area has never been changed; 2.) no data has been presented to support the need for the change; 3.) no professional expert opinion, analysis, or modeling has been presented to support the need for the change; 4.) cars are already compliantly using fans

the technical merits of the change as presented and the associated adverse consequences points to a straight forward decision..................... evolution of the cars, consistent with safety, should be allowed to continue compliantly within the formula.


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[LJennings]

Mr Frog,

Here is my vote for what it is worth.

* Kent powered chassis - leave the current rule as-is
* Honda powered chassis - no fans are allowed


Here is my reasoning.


First, let’s remember what was “sold” to the club by HPD and our illustrious all-knowing BOD for allowing the Honda engine to participate in Formula Ford.


Parity, Parity, Parity compared against a “good national” Kent engine. A bit of a lousy specification, but nobody cared at the time to develop and document an accurate description of what constitutes a “good national” Kent.


If there was/is such documentation, it was not published, and it should have been made available to the club.


Secondly, the Fit engine package, including its installation and engine management system i.e. ECU, was developed in the back of a Swift DB-something, with a heat exchanger of a certain size, and the air flow to that heat exchanger via the Swift NACA ducts at so many CFM vs. the vehicles velocity.


At the introduction of the Fit, I made an inquiry to HPD requesting information so I could properly size a cooling system. I was told at that time, the information was not available, and that if my current Kent system was working, then that would be more than adequate.


So back to my vote.


I believe the Fit engine should be viewed as a complete system as tested at the time the engine rule change was adopted.



So if a competitor or manufacturer chooses to deviate from the size of the heat exchanger or airflow requirements from the test mule, to find an advantage, the current ECU mapping somewhat enforces the test mule specifications.


The law of unintended consequences.


This must be some type of a sign. Every time I turn on the lights and start to wipe the dust away, something like this pops up, and then I just turn the lights off, go back in the house, ask my wife and kids what they would like to do this weekend.

[Rick Kirchner]

[Steve Bamford]

Art,

I am unsure why you don't seem to think that allowing the fans on Honda powered cars is a good thing for the FF class?

I have put the idea out there to allow them on Kents so people such as yourself who earlier argued you needed it for sitting on the grid could have it. Now it becomes about the formula?

Don't take this the wrong way as this simply my belief that allowing this on the Honda's is a formula for less FF entries overall.

I will put them in if I think it gives me a competitive advantage or if I feel I am at a disadvantage without them. I strongly believe that I will end up racing less cars as the cost barrier to the pointy end of the grid continues to increase. I prefer to race 20 plus cars then 5 or 6.

[Wren]

It's possible that the most frustrating thing about the whole Radon fiasco is going to be listening to people(or maybe just one person who seems to be getting all of his information on the case from apexspeed) bring up the case every time that there is a rule change proposed that they don't agree with. This is nothing more than a difference of opinions. Both Art and Steve seem to believe that they can gain a competitive advantage if they spend enough money on fan technology and changes to their cars. The difference is whether or not they think it is a good thing.

The Radon case is entirely unrelated.

[Art Smith]

Steve-

the answer is simple, I'm in favor of the Formula's fan rule remaining unchanged and that it continue to apply to all cars competing in the class. rules that don't apply to everyone equally are best-on-best divisive . the class doesn't need additional things to piss and moan about. "just this one" will soon turn into "separate but equal" and that doesn't work anywhere!! as best I can see, there's nothing wrong with the rule as written; just appears as if one or more designers have cut cooling capacity a little too close in search of additional performance. running Kent's above 180F also costs horsepower............

keeping in mind I appreciate things are always easier on the other guy's side of the fence, different rules for cars with alternators and those without alternators are far easier to implement in the Pro Series........... now that Lloyd has pointed out the obvious to all of us that an ECU change is a "performance upgrade", that's likely to be a rough road! again to Lloyd's point, it may be time to talk with the folks that made your car(s) about larger and/or variable inlets. I'd also strongly recommend talking with the folks that made your car(s) before putting one or more fans in your current side pods; 12Vdc fans that will flow equal or more air than their area at speed in an uncluttered duct will be difficult to find for current typical side pods.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Purple Frog]

Wren =

It could be said the "Radon" mess happened because action was not taken soon enough.

When it comes to approaching advanced fan system implementation, I am proposing we act to outlaw something before it happens... not after it is on the track. Seems like the correct approach to me. And the new technology coming on the scene can be used for both Kents and Hondas, so I'm proposing a total class ban.

So far I have heard of 4 cars in the country with fans. Not even sure how often they compete or at what level. 4 cars vs. 100s without fans.

And, dozens of posts ago I proposed compromise language for high altitude hot tracks that covers the 4 cars that have surfaced.

***

About the Honda ecu program. (spoke with Jeff Barrow at Barber) For all intents and purposes Honda can not change the program. They have an ecu program currently that is proven to provide a safety factor to maintain an engine with an exceptionally long duty cycle as a race engine. If they change that program to allow the engine to run hotter, the duty cycle shortens and then every Honda owner starts bitchin'. I think Bob Wright is sort of dreaming if he thinks Honda will change the map. Why mess up a good thing. Employ racecraft to cool the little beast.

[Art Smith]

Frog-

what does "advanced fan system" mean ?? it's beginning to sound like something children are warned about around camp fires that gets kids that stray at night.........

there's not much "advanced" about putting a fan in front of or behind a heat exchanger........

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Rick Kean]

"the new technology coming on the scene"

and what would that be, please?

[DaveW]

...Employ racecraft to cool the little beast.

Agreed. Plus, as has been mentioned previously, cooling a racecar has always been a compromise between aero drag and cooling safety factor. Minimizing the parasitic drag vs keeping the engine cool enough has always been a critical balance.

So, IMO, we need to keep cooling fans out of the picture and allow engineers to work on optimizing racecar cooling/drag the way it has been done for decades.

[Jnovak]

Agreed. Plus, as has been mentioned previously, cooling a racecar has always been a compromise between aero drag and cooling safety factor. Minimizing the parasitic drag vs keeping the engine cool enough has always been a critical balance.

So, IMO, we need to keep cooling fans out of the picture and allow engineers to work on optimizing racecar cooling/drag the way it has been done for decades.

Dave knows what he is talking about.

[LJennings]

Isn't it illegal to have movable aero devices in FF? I am too lazy to cut and paste from the GCR

So if a fan is not directly affixed to the oil or water heat exchanger wouldn't it be classified as an aero device since it must rotate to provide the said benifit?

[Bob Wright]

I think the Honda ECU should not be a "this is how it is, deal with it" situation. When Honda approached the equalization process, they targeted a "good to great" National Kent and approximated it. With the current mapping, the Honda is programed to degrade after a certain rise in water temp and the Kent does not. In racing situations it has been found by data analysis that the Hondas are hitting those numbers and therefore the Kent is by definition outperforming (or in some cases the Hondas in the pack but not leading are degraded). Not what HPD set out to do, if I understand everything correctly.

The "ban the fans" issue does not solve the ECU problem with the Honda vs Kent. It may, however solve an future technology war in the class- that is a different agenda. The fans are currently legal, therefore the teams used them as the most expedient way to solve the ECU problem at hand.

If HPD does not change the ECU, and the fans are banned; the teams will spend a lot of money experimenting with new side pod configurations and radiators (CFD, wind tunnels, etc). That's a whole lot more $$ than a ECU change that might shorten an engine life cycle a tiny amount. We're not talking about a big change here-maybe 10-15 deg F at most.

I think one thing that would be very helpful to this discussion is some deeper understanding of the potential the use of "fans" have in the future technology beyond vague references to new battery technology, aero advantage etc. The more educated the membership is, the more rational the letters to the CRB will be.

[LJennings]

Okay let's say you raise the water temperature limit by 20 degs. Now what if the honda has a clear advantage over a good to great Kent? Are you willing to reduce the restrictor opening?

This could go on for ever and we are not talking anything aero at this point

So currently everything appears to be working it just sucks not to be leader. More incentive to get you butt in gear and get to the front

[Bob Wright]

No- the ECU is materially degrading the Honda hp above X deg by retarding the timing. Raising the temp limit maintains the existing hp to a higher temp.

You still have to deal with engine temps and drafting, just like any other car (NASCAR eg), just not an artificial change.

[LJennings]

Okay so now I can run my honda hotter at no penalty what does that extra temp do my hp output of the Kent?

[Bob Wright]

you have the same penalty any hot engine has- these motors (especially alu heads) run better at 180F than they do at, say 205F. What you wouldn't have is programmed timing retardation until you reach something like 220F.

[andyllc]

Bob
At one point I thought there was a rule in the pro series that said the Euro cars (Mygale) had to run with their original (wide) sidepods (no mods). Is this still the case?

[Bob Wright]

We have specific rules for the euro cars in our technical regs. I think Club has adopted the same or very similar language for them as well.

I think I know where you're going....

[Steve Bamford]

I think the Honda ECU should not be a "this is how it is, deal with it" situation. When Honda approached the equalization process, they targeted a "good to great" National Kent and approximated it. With the current mapping, the Honda is programed to degrade after a certain rise in water temp and the Kent does not. In racing situations it has been found by data analysis that the Hondas are hitting those numbers and therefore the Kent is by definition outperforming (or in some cases the Hondas in the pack but not leading are degraded). Not what HPD set out to do, if I understand everything correctly.

The "ban the fans" issue does not solve the ECU problem with the Honda vs Kent. It may, however solve an future technology war in the class- that is a different agenda. The fans are currently legal, therefore the teams used them as the most expedient way to solve the ECU problem at hand.

If HPD does not change the ECU, and the fans are banned; the teams will spend a lot of money experimenting with new side pod configurations and radiators (CFD, wind tunnels, etc). That's a whole lot more $$ than a ECU change that might shorten an engine life cycle a tiny amount. We're not talking about a big change here-maybe 10-15 deg F at most.

I think one thing that would be very helpful to this discussion is some deeper understanding of the potential the use of "fans" have in the future technology beyond vague references to new battery technology, aero advantage etc. The more educated the membership is, the more rational the letters to the CRB will be.

Bob,

Work has been going on trying to improve the sidepods for decades, that won't stop with or without new fan/battery technology. Let people have at it as they have been.

Adding the fans will make it even more important to look at different sidepods at that point, I don't understand how people don't see that? If you can cool the engine more with fans then that will lead to research trying to see what the most efficient pods that can be used as well.

Just more dollars spent. I do not see the benefit, someone please tell me how this helps FF or FC grow the class numbers?

[Steve Bamford]

Bob
At one point I thought there was a rule in the pro series that said the Euro cars (Mygale) had to run with their original (wide) sidepods (no mods). Is this still the case?

If you put smaller pods on the Euro spec car (Mygale) then it will fit under the FF GCR so the argument that it can't be achieved on the Mygale is false. I have SCCA size sidepods I can use on mine.

[Bob Wright]

Steve, I'm trying to segregate the Honda ECU issue from the fan issue. Maybe they can't be, because the fan controversy surfaced as a result of the ECU. Remember, fans have been allowed for a long time and no one has blinked until now.

The series clearly has to resolve the fans one way or another (as does Club, which is why Frog is pounding away on the subject). To me (and some others), the ECU issue is very clear, I just have to make Honda see it my way which may be dreaming . Fans are nowhere near as simple, and I think the more information and understanding we have of the possibilities, the better our decision.

[andyllc]

If you put smaller pods on the Euro spec car (Mygale) then it will fit under the FF GCR so the argument that it can't be achieved on the Mygale is false. I have SCCA size sidepods I can use on mine.

Steve
My question about having to use the wide pods was more of trying to figure out who was trying to run fans. If Mygale's have to run in the pro series with wide pods then I think that it would likely be a Spectrum that is trying to do it (possibly VD but not likely).
Not relevant to overall discussion, just my curiosity.

[Steve Bamford]

Steve
My question about having to use the wide pods was more of trying to figure out who was trying to run fans. If Mygale's have to run in the pro series with wide pods then I think that it would likely be a Spectrum that is trying to do it (possibly VD but not likely).
Not relevant to overall discussion, just my curiosity.

Both cars run warm in the draft, know teams running the Spectrums & Mygales, it will be both experimenting with them if they already aren't.

[Art Smith]

what are people afraid of? have you seen it? would you know it if you saw it? is different bad? is it a question of not invented here? you're not interested in heat transfer? someone thinks this is an alternate engine vulnerability? is there a move afoot to turn the class into a "time capsule" Formula?

how is putting a fan in front of or behind a heat exchanger to solve a heat transfer requirement any different than: "advanced" tube frames for improved torsional stiffness at reduce weight; "advanced" 4-way gas shocks for tuneability; "advanced" transaxle adapters for improved torsional stiffness, reduced weight, and thermal management of the engine's oil supply; ............ " advanced" is a marketing word used to describe things you have and the competition doesn't! if you have it, "advanced" is "good" ! if you don't currently have it, "advanced" is clearly bad, too expensive, a safety concern, bad for racing, ........

without regard to the outcome of this debate, cars in the class will change materially beyond typical yearly evolution! more people now understand the importance of heat transfer to the competitiveness of their cars and the health/welfare of their engines AND that there are other potentially better solutions. it's my opinion that off-the-shelf "standard core" heat exchangers with off-the-shelf "standard" fans today represent the lowest cost solution to the engine's heat transfer requirements. there's no telling what the answer will be in a five years. off-the-shelf NASCAR quality heat exchanger core today costs on-the-order of 5X "standard" core. NASCAR quality core provides material improvement in specific heat transfer (ie: BTU/min/degree F/foot squared); in other words more heat transfer at the same conditions, less frontal area for the same heat transfer capability, wider ambient air temperature capability all other things equal. for those with budgets that can afford the "exotic" (that's two orders of magnitude worse than "advanced" in scary speak), micro-tube based technology from SDI, F1, WEC, ....... offers even smaller and lighter solutions (packaging/frontal area/....). unlike those that are attempting to ban fans changing an almost 50 year old rule in the Formula, I've explicitly identified existing near term concerns/threats to compliant existing solutions. depending if NASCAR quality core and micro tube technology are exciting opportunities or threats to your comfortable status quo, fuel mileage research is likely to yield things of real interest at the repair parts window in five years or less. and there is research and development for other applications that also has the potential to yield reusable consumer parts for the class's functional heat transfer needs................

without the ability to define, describe, characterize, quantify, ......... "advanced fan systems", how does anyone expect to be able to outlaw, slow, or otherwise effect the inclusion of evolving available technology. the Formula as written almost 50 years ago has done in my opinion well beyond an outstanding job accomodating the unavoidable march of time and technology. the change to the Formula is not needed and constitutes a likely first step in an endless list of "he's got it, I don't; so outlaw it" so common in tin top classes...............

it is not correct to state Kent horsepower is not effected by rising water temperature. spend an hour on a dyno with anything that's compliant and it will become obvious. current Kent operating water temperatures (even mine) are well above optimum for maximum horsepower; it's a net performance trade.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Brandon Dixon]

My concern is more with the ability to start the race with more energy than you finish with, other than burning gasoline in the engine. Now that the battery technology is getting to more viable storage densities, it seems possible to have enough battery, say 40# of Lithium-Ion, to provide, for sake of argument, 4HP additional power over the race distance.

I'm not talking about alternator output, as that is engine produced power, and you would not be able to produce more than, say 1/2 HP of power, even with the Honda alternator.

Without a fan, what are you going to do, legally, with that power? Run the ecu, fuel pump, injectors, etc? Those don't add up to enough power to worry much about. With fans, I have a place to consume that power and build the car to aerodynamic advantage.

OK, who wants to fund this, and be the one to sit on that much potential energy that can be unleashed very quickly....

[Rick Kean]

...
I think one thing that would be very helpful to this discussion is some deeper understanding of the potential the use of "fans" have in the future technology beyond vague references to new battery technology, aero advantage etc. The more educated the membership is, the more rational the letters to the CRB will be.

Ducted fans delivering airflow to annular nozzles employing Coanda surfaces , ala Dyson: http://www.google.com/patents/US20130189083

"The air outlet 20 is shaped to direct the primary air flow over the external surface of the inner casing section 30. The external surface of the inner casing section 30 comprises a Coanda surface 36 located adjacent the air outlet 20 and over which the air outlet 20 directs the air emitted from the fan 10, a diffuser surface 38 located downstream of the Coanda surface 36 and a guide surface 40 located downstream of the diffuser surface 38. The diffuser surface 38 is arranged to taper away from the central axis X of the opening 32 in such a way so as to assist the flow of air emitted from the fan 10. The angle subtended between the diffuser surface 38 and the central axis X of the opening 32 is in the range from 5 to 25°, and in this example is around 15°. The guide surface 40 is arranged at an angle to the diffuser surface 38 to further assist the efficient delivery of a cooling air flow from the fan 10. The guide surface 40 is preferably arranged substantially parallel to the central axis X of the opening 32 to present a substantially flat and substantially smooth face to the air flow emitted from the air outlet 20. A visually appealing tapered surface 42 is located downstream from the guide surface 40, terminating at a tip surface 44 lying substantially perpendicular to the central axis X of the opening 32. The angle subtended between the tapered surface 42 and the central axis X of the opening 32 is preferably around 45°."

Are fans based upon this technology in discussion for Formula F Honda Pro racing?



I would then restrict cooling fans by only allowing fans that do not utilize any form of Coanda based technology. Plane old bladed, shrouded fans, like those of Spal, should remain unresticted.

[problemchild]

My concern is more with the ability to start the race with more energy than you finish with, other than burning gasoline in the engine. Now that the battery technology is getting to more viable storage densities, it seems possible to have enough battery, say 40# of Lithium-Ion, to provide, for sake of argument, 4HP additional power over the race distance.

I'm not talking about alternator output, as that is engine produced power, and you would not be able to produce more than, say 1/2 HP of power, even with the Honda alternator.

Without a fan, what are you going to do, legally, with that power? Run the ecu, fuel pump, injectors, etc? Those don't add up to enough power to worry much about. With fans, I have a place to consume that power and build the car to aerodynamic advantage.

Exactly! As I so clumsily presented in a previous post, I can buy about 45 lbs of lithium iron batteries for about $7K that would provide 720 AHs of power. That is without researching or shopping.

[Rick Kean]

...

Fans aren't the problem, it's the Batteriesssss.

(1 Starter Battery + 1 Alternator + 1 Fan/Exchanger) / Car

...

Battery capacity restricted to X amp-hrs or less.

Car has to restart with it's remaining onboard battery power at impound.

[andyllc]

Battery capacity restricted to X amp-hrs or less.

Car has to restart with it's remaining onboard battery power at impound.

Many times our Honda won't restart immediately after a session as it is without a fan and fancy batteries to power the fan.