what gives ???

[Art Smith]

which nameless volunteer(s) or member(s) of the establishment do we have to thank for this? what problem is being solved or is this an effort to reduce litigation exposure from different technical solutions? fans have been unrestricted since the FFord rules were first written. and now with no public discussion or comment, the rules are suddenly changed. batteries, wiring, switches, ducts, seals, fans, and heat exchanger(s) all take volume and weight to solve the heat transfer problem just like other approaches....

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

FF
1. #14645 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) FF and FC: Disallow Fans for Radiators
Thank you for your letter.
The CRB recommends eliminating the use of cooling fans in FF and FC cars so cooling systems are
not developed into aerodynamic systems in these cars.

Make the below changes:

Kent/Cortina:
Change 9.1.1.12.q: q. Cooling System Cooling system is unrestricted. Any radiator,
fan,water pump and drive belt permitted. Pump/fan/generator/alternator drive belt: Unrestricted.
Cooling fans are not allowed.

Honda Fit: Add 9.1.1.14.o.5.:
5.
Cooling fans are not allowed.

Pinto: Change 9.1.1.15.y.:y. Pump, fan, and generator/alternator drive pulleys are unrestricted.

Cooling fans are not allowed.

Zetec: Change 9.1.1.16.q. and .t.:
q. A liquid cooling system is mandatory, but radiator and water pump are unrestricted. Cooling fans
are not permitted
t. Pump, fan,and generator/alternator drive pulleys are unrestricted.

[Pi_guy]

Can you point out a car or application in FF/FC where a cooling fan is used?
I am hard pressed to think of any examples.

thanks

[TimH]

Can you point out a car or application in FF/FC where a cooling fan is used?
I am hard pressed to think of any examples.

Autocross. They spend a lot of time sitting in line.

[Art Smith]

Pi Guy-

examples have nothing to do with abusive arbitrary unilateral and capricious rule changes or the circumvention of rationale change process! fans have been unrestricted for approaching 50 years......................... can you whisper Radon ???

that said, yes I can point out an example; in fact three!!! I have DB-1 with a 16" SPAL blower, a Viking with a 16" SPAL sucker, and a Crossle 32F with a 16" SPAL sucker behind the driver. volume to seal and transition the SPAL to the heat exchanger core determined the choice of "blower" or "sucker" SPAL part numbers.

Art
artesmtih@earthlink.net

[marshall9]

Autocross. They spend a lot of time sitting in line.

Tim,
In the SCCA, autocross rules and Club racing rules are different. AutoX no fire bottles required, belt dates, many things are different. I am confident that Art is speaking of rules in the road racing environment.

[Pi_guy]

Pi Guy-

examples have nothing to do with abusive arbitrary unilateral and capricious rule changes or the circumvention of rationale change process! fans have been unrestricted for approaching 50 years......................... can you whisper Radon ???

that said, yes I can point out an example; in fact three!!! I have DB-1 with a 16" SPAL blower, a Viking with a 16" SPAL sucker, and a Crossle 32F with a 16" SPAL sucker behind the driver. volume to seal and transition the SPAL to the heat exchanger core determined the choice of "blower" or "sucker" SPAL part numbers.

Art
artesmtih@earthlink.net

I refer to that car as Atomic number 86 race car, and it has its own set of issues.

The club's been modifying rules for years, I have been lead to believe that it is done to create equality. But I could be wrong based on what they did atomic number 86 cars.

[Dick R.]

Tim,
In the SCCA, autocross rules and Club racing rules are different. AutoX no fire bottles required, belt dates, many things are different. I am confident that Art is speaking of rules in the road racing environment.

It would take another Solo exemption since the starting point, at least for FF's, is the GCR. Solo also doesn't allow "sucker" cars.

The use
of any moving device (e.g., a fan, propeller, turbine) or hinged wing to
create downforce is prohibited. Movable side skirts are not permitted
except where noted herein or in Appendix A, Modified Category.

[Purple Frog]

Art,

Just curious... all these DB-1s didn't require fans. Why does yours?

[Roux]

I read the rule book and had overheating issues on hot days with my one off design and chose to put in an electric fan.

Steve

[Pi_guy]

Art,

Just curious... all these DB-1s didn't require fans. Why does yours?

Sort of why I was curious.

[Art Smith]

Frog-

ever been to Willow Springs or Button Willow in the summer time?? fans enable the engine to be cooled in the paddock, at pre-grid, and after the race to prevent heat soak. required as used in your question is something to be determined by the car's owner and the answer probably has a great deal to do with the value of the engine in the back of the car. it's been a compliant option since day one to those willing to do a little work to protect their engine.

Art
artesmtih@earthlink.net

ps: none of the cars in the posted picture had compliantly attached interior safety panels either............................ the operative word being compliant

[EYERACE]

1. So you warm up the FF - shut it off - later roll it to the line - fire it up as need be while waiting in line if it's a long line so as to maintain temps - when you're about ready to go you fire it up.....and go

No problem.

2. Years ago I took the fan off the front of the engine in the AutoX MG - probably gained about 1/4 horse in the bargain? - installed a detachable electric fan behind the radiator - would use it when needed while waiting in line - take off car at last minute - run - come back to line head after run and pick up fan which was laying on ground .... .......... no one ever said a word.

[John Merriman]

Hey...this is gonna be fun!!!....and just in time for the off season too.....

[racerdad2]

So... we're afraid of 'Chaparral Can Am' like aero - downforce advantages ? Hmmmm.... I was considering installing a small cooling fan over the winter, just in case I needed it on the occasional 90+ degree day caught in line at the scales or a traffic jam traversing the paddocks. I do have a couple of squirrel cage blowers I put on the radiators after I'm back in the paddock.

I quess the good news is I have one less project this winter.

[problemchild]

Allowing fans would potentially give advantage to cars with an alternator/generator.

[racerdad2]

Ok. I get that.

[Rick Kirchner]

1) what competitor wrote the letter that's referred to? Step forward and make your case.
2) why?
3) why link FF to FC?

I'm considering the use of a fan in an 84VD application. As Art said, ever been to Willow Springs in July? 105deg @ 2500ft MSL?

I'm looking at restoring this 84 to have some fun with my "Series" brethren, but I have extreme reservations that it can haul my lard a$$ around willow in late spring/early fall, given the mickey mouse packaging of the various components in a valiant, but somewhat ineffective, attempt at getting air to the rad. Why do I have an 84 - certainly not because of it's winning history. I had a boat and wanted another race car, and a guy had a race car and wanted a boat. I was looking to the engineering challenge, but I guess the CRB is extremely concerned about innovation!

A fan opens up a lot of design opportunities to re-package the radiator, oil cooler, battery, and fuel cell into something that actually works.

But this shouldn't be about individuals. the rules have been in place for a very long time and unless the CRB can explain how a fan of reasonable size and weight for a FF can produce a significant aero advantage then why mess with it? Especially in this manner?

What makes a design process utilizing a common, off the shelf component, to produce an improvement in an older chassis, any different than the radical re-design of the FF that was represented by the ADF and Swift?

I don't believe that "developing these devices into aerodynamic systems" is a proper description. I believe that one could produce cooling with less drag, or better cooling with similar drag, but to define that as an "aerodynamic system" (we all know the CRB is really referring to downforce here) is a stretch.

[Swift17]

This is a stretch and based upon "... rumor and conjecture ..." and this evening insomnia, so here goes:

It appears that the Honda/Fit is very susceptible to self destruction when over heated and requires significant cooling system heat exchanger capacity to avoid same. When some of our good friends over in the pro series run as tightly has they do in virtually every race and certain chassis were found to be deprived of airflow to the very low mounted rads so this "..problem..." surfaced.

I opine and the fix was to use fans to supplement the air flow. The primary function was apparently to assist in "... engine cooling..." So far so good. --BUT as any engineer worth their salt develops this system, the fear is that sharkgrills, underbody slates and assorted sidepod vents may appear and voila, the next Brabham BT46b Chaparral 2J.

I am not aero engineer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once ..........

[fitfan]

. I don't believe that "developing these devices into aerodynamic systems" is a proper description. I believe that one could produce cooling with less drag, or better cooling with similar drag, but to define that as an "aerodynamic system"

I'm certainly no expert here... But didn't you just answer your own question?

As for downforce, Can anyone explain to Me how a fan in a a car with an open flat tray (no ground effects or diff) can make down force with a fan?

[NPalacioM3]

This is a stretch and based upon "... rumor and conjecture ..." and this evening insomnia, so here goes:

It appears that the Honda/Fit is very susceptible to self destruction when over heated and requires significant cooling system heat exchanger capacity to avoid same. When some of our good friends over in the pro series run as tightly has they do in virtually every race and certain chassis were found to be deprived of airflow to the very low mounted rads so this "..problem..." surfaced.

I opine and the fix was to use fans to supplement the air flow. The primary function was apparently to assist in "... engine cooling..." So far so good. --BUT as any engineer worth their salt develops this system, the fear is that sharkgrills, underbody slates and assorted sidepod vents may appear and voila, the next Brabham BT46b Chaparral 2J.

I am not aero engineer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once ..........

I'm glad someone spilled the beans and completely agree with above. I don't know why anyone cared about the fans enough to have them banned. My issue, with the way I understand things went down, is the way the team in question handled the findings. This wasn't a performance advantage in my understanding and now if you eliminate the fans, the big $$ teams (like the one in question) will just find more creative and expensive ways to cool the motor while others potentially suffer motor problems. Lose/lose.

[problemchild]

Any rule that keeps people from having to spend money developing new systems is good for the class. I am sure "paddock fans" can still be used with an external plug-in power source or switch.

[NPalacioM3]

Any rule that keeps people from having to spend money developing new systems is good for the class. I am sure "paddock fans" can still be used with an external plug-in power source or switch.

Greg, they will spend more money to come up with a more expensive solution to the same problem.... So it's not really preventing those who want to be up front from spending money, probably more now.

[problemchild]

Greg, they will spend more money to come up with a more expensive solution to the same problem.... So it's not really preventing those who want to be up front from spending money, probably more now.

Perhaps in the short term, but designing/modifying/building an appropriate cooling system for the engine and car being used, then putting it into production, is a better solution. EJ's conjecture was only partially correct. It is an engine situation, apparent with the Honda, but not unique to particular cars. One team gained an understanding of the situation, and shared their concerns with other teams, in an act of sportsmanship. It is not a conspiracy to manipulate anything or anybody. I stand by my opinion.

I don't know if this situation had anything to do with the rule change. I think that kent or pinto powered cars would be disadvantaged if everyone began running fan-assisted cooling systems. Also, a woman or small boy, in a light modern car could run a lot of battery and very sophisticated fan system, with very little drag.

Note: I edited my initial response. Yes, the Honda engines run better at 195F than 215F, but I expect most or all engines will.

[Jnovak]

Please note that this change is a RECOMMENDATION and not rule yet. If you are unhappy with the recommended change then I suggest that you use the system and send a letter in to the CRB.

[chrisw52]

Please note that this change is a RECOMMENDATION and not rule yet. If you are unhappy with the recommended change then I suggest that you use the system and send a letter in to the CRB.

If we were to write hand written letters, I think we would complete strip all the forests in the pacific northwest on paper demand alone.

If we go with an email, the SCCA will assume its a hacker attack...

I'll send my thoughts, but I doubt it will make a difference..

[Jon Jeffords]

One team gained an understanding of the situation, and shared their concerns with other teams, in an act of sportsmanship.

How do the rest of us non-Pro Honda drivers get the details on this learning? Has HPD released any information related to this?

[problemchild]

Its nothing new or secret. Look at your data. When you drive around in a 6 car pack for an extended time and your water temps rise, the engine makes less power. Sometimes somebody just needs to state the obvious. In this case, the data collection is good enough, and enough people are looking at it, that people started exploring options to keep water temps down. In most cases, that means managing how you run in the draft. It is not a lot different than FV or FF has ever been.

Let's keep the horse in the barn. Uncle Art can still use his fan in the paddock or grid. He just needs to have the crew power or switch it. No big deal.

[Rick Kean]

Recommended Items for 2015
The following subjects will be referred to the Board of Directors for approval. Address all comments, both for and against, to the Club Racing Board. It is the BoD’s policy to withhold voting on a rules change until there has been input from the membership on the presented rules. Member input is suggested and encouraged. Please send your comments via the form at www.clubracingboard.com
.
FF
1. #14645 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) FF and FC: Disallow Fans for Radiators
Thank you for your letter. The CRB recommends eliminating the use of cooling fans in FF and FC cars so cooling systems are not developed into aerodynamic systems in these cars.

t'would have been fun to actually see an example or two of these class disruptive, fan assisted, aerodynamic cooling systems before they preemptively receive administrative castration...


Engineer like soap opewa.
YOU GO NOW; lite letta.


Rick

[Art Smith]

the rules as currently written exclude the use of ducted air for the creation of down force with or without a fan.


9.1.1

C. Body

3. ..................It is not permitted to duct air through any part of the bodywork for the purpose of providing aerodynamic downforce on the car. All ducted air for heat exchangers (water/oil) shall pass through those heat exchangers.


there's very little "rocket science" in observations from data systems that internal combustion engines (without regard to brand) run better, longer, and more reliably at 180F than 220-230F ! anyone that requires a pressure cap is contributing to their engine's need for frequent rebuilds and almost surely blaming it on the engine. internal cooling systems as a rule of thumb almost always take more volume/space than external solutions (ie: additional frontal area or longer wheelbase). anything beyond a single 16" SPAL will require either a generator or alternator to power it. I'm OK with anyone that want's to deduct horsepower from the flywheel to run either a generator or alternator at the rate of watts out/(746 watts/hp x mechanical drive/belt efficiency x mechanical efficiency of the generator or alternator); the two efficiency terms are punitive taxes!


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Jim Garry]

To send a comment to the CRB it doesn't require paper or an email. Just go here:

http://www.crbscca.com/

[Jon Jeffords]

there's very little "rocket science" in observations from data systems that internal combustion engines (without regard to brand) run better, longer, and more reliably at 180F than 220-230F !

Agreed, but the comment was made in post #18 that the engines are "self destructing." What is the failure mode that the Pro teams are experiencing at the higher coolant temps? Detonation leading to piston failure? Dropped valve guides due to loss of press fit? Or is the real root cause the loss of coolant through the pressure cap?

[problemchild]

Agreed, but the comment was made in post #18 that the engines are "self destructing." What is the failure mode that the Pro teams are experiencing at the higher coolant temps? Detonation leading to piston failure? Dropped valve guides due to loss of press fit? Or is the real root cause the loss of coolant through the pressure cap?

Self-destructing? That's news to me. AFAIK, this is about having difficulty completing passes when you run 6th in a 6 car draft for 20 mins.

[Rick Kean]

What coolant temp trips the HPD ECU into Limp Home Mode?

Rick

[R. Pare]

I see no need for this restriction.

[NPalacioM3]

What coolant temp trips the HPD ECU into Limp Home Mode?

Rick

I heard something like 99C.....

[problemchild]

I heard something like 99C.....

Limp Home Mode? There is so much misinformation in this tread ....

I like to help but this is just a waste of time.

[Purple Frog]

The Fit runs a 50 amp alternator. One could run a hell of a fan with 50 amps. Just saying.

With the progress in fan technology one could see a complete revolution in aero design for FF and FC, thus making it a "must have" to have all new bodywork built around use of fans, (think much smaller openings and exit ducts, possibly relocated to areas that would not work without a fan),and relegating all existing cars that don't upgrade to the back of the pack.

Also, I have been told that when the Hondas reach a certain temp the race ecu starts retarding the timing a bit. Therefore if you run 3rd in a tight draft for many laps and then pull out to pass, you discover you don't have as much power as the girl running in the lead in clean air. I have heard that Honda has no intention to reprogram the ecu. It is thought that part of being in a development class the driver has to learn how to manage the heat in the draft, whether it be NASCAR or club racing.

So... you make fans illegal or you face a completely new kind of FF/FC in 2015. Especially with Daytona on the horizon. I am not trying to alarm, but there are engineers ready to design new bodywork to take advantage of high amp fans. Smaller inlets in different locations, with ducting to different exit ports. Different kind of rads. If that is what you want, vote for fans. Just saying...

100s of FF have been able to race successfully for 45 years in the US without fans, why do we need them now?

[Purple Frog]

OK sportsfans... do this little homework assignment.

If you own a Piper call Doug Learned or Don Steivenpiper.
If you own a Citation call Steve Lathrop, Jeremy, Brandon Dixon, or Chuck Brewer.
If you own a VD, save your dime. unless you are a Polestar customer.
If you own a Spectrum call Mike Borland.
If you own a Mygale. take your spouse to Paris.

Call up those chassis/bodywork guys and ask them if fans are legal in 2015 what are their plans to take advantage of the new 50 amp alternators and great lithium batteries now available.

Then, think why are fans not allowed in big formula cars racing worldwide... think F1, etc.

I have seen custom sidepods on a VD/Kent that cost more than most of you Apexspeed readers spend in a year of racing.

If that's what you want, send your cards and mail to the CRB arguing for fans.

You'll get what you wish for and deserve. Just saying.

[Art Smith]

Frog-

skipping the serious process problem with how this was sprung on the community when a lot of competitors are preoccupied with this year's RunOffs, I don't agree the sky is falling. 50 amps at ~13 Vdc is the better part of 1.5hp at the flywheel after taxes assuming you're running in the sweet spot of the alternator's efficiency vs load curve. have you attempted to buy more packageable flow than produced by a 16" SPAL sucker configuration fan ?? good luck! besides, a 16" x 16" C&R standard 36mm core with a 16" SPAL sucker configuration fan is more than enough for even a pretty good Kent in the desert. flow and diameter are linked given a power limited DC motor is providing the power. running 12Vdc fans at 18Vdc is problematic; the fan blades don't produce a linear increase in flow with rising voltage and the motor runs too hot so it ends up not being worth the effort (testing was done two years ago using a variable voltage source and a laser). with the alternator in your example, two 16" SPAL sucker configuration fans wouldn't leave enough power for ignition and engine management............

the REAL problem here is most of the current/modern cars and particularly those optimized to take advantage of the alternate engine's smaller installed frontal area don't readily accommodate center line fan cooling solutions behind the driver and older FFords do............. so we're left to deal with another Radon like mess over market share.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[NPalacioM3]

Limp Home Mode? There is so much misinformation in this tread ....

I like to help but this is just a waste of time.

Read Mike's post above. It explains it better but modern ECU cars will enter into a limp mode when a certain code is thrown to prevent damage. Apparently on the Fit, the ECU is set to retard the timing (limp mode) when the water temp reaches a certain level. I heard this from a pretty good source, I do not think it is misinformation and clearly Mike (and others) have heard the same.

I have no FF, so no dog in this fight. But, if I were an FF Honda owner, I would have just put a fan on my car.....