Tires

[derminator]

Gentleman
I have watch the discussion as well, relating to the tire debate and I would like to give you this comparison, that may help you understand things a little better
Growing up I bet at one time in your life you went to a go cart track with your family or friends and preceded to race and dual like it was the Monaco GP or the final lap of the Indy 500. You raced wheel to wheel( all the while do so at speeds of 20 miles an hour) not thinking about the speed, but how to pass before the checker comes out. Remember the joy you felt as you jump out of the cart to greet your friends and family and share the laughs of your driving skills. ( or lack of them) Well gentleman I can tell you that racing on the radials is a very similar experience. Its not about speed, its about racing. As the fields dwindle in FV I am sure more and more of you are finding racing alone no fun especially after a 4 hour tow. Last year in the F1200 series not once did I run without at least 2 other cars to race with, and in some case as many of 8 others nose to tale.
We need to find a way to increase fields and bring back the racing and I truly believe the concept of radicals will do just that. We all love the sport, so lets be smart about things. It was discussed on the weekend to start a FV association dedicated to growing the fields and revitalizing the class, which in turn will lead to our own races. ( not wings and things) Lets face it gentleman if we don't do something we may not have a class to run.
In order for this to work we need the support of those involved in the class. I understand change is hard, but I can tell you the people behind this change really do love this class and are doing so for the benefit of all of us.
__________________
DERM

[BURKY]

We need to find a way to increase fields and bring back the racing and I truly believe the concept of radicals will do just that.
__________________
DERM

I doubt the Radical guys will agree.

[derminator]

Thats radials my bad

[Steve Davis]

I've said it before ... it's NOT about the tires .. it's about the ENVIRONMENT. If we set up specific events for FV *ONLY*.. "THEY" will come.
See
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64750

We already have a great class .. we are just in need of a place to race ... on our own. This will be the 3rd event this year 'encouraged' by USFV1200. From what I see, we need only to MAKE IT HAPPEN. The guys in NEDIV have done a great job of getting vees together at specific races to create a CLASS large enough to support a GROUP. We all need to work towards that goal at selected events within our own areas.

Racing in your mirrors is NO fun .. at any speed .. regardless of what tires you are running.

This is NOT to poo-poo, your post - just to point out the Tires is not really the ISSUE. If you can get a group of vees to run radials (or radicals ) in your area, by all means pursue it and make it happen if you can. Vee racing in single class racing *CAN* be slower without issue. It's trying to work radials (or any other slower spec type tire) into MIXED CLASS RACING that bugs me. *ANY* amount slower for vees makes the class mix situation even worse than it already is. Get enough cars to support your own groups and it matters not how slow you are.

[jpetillo]

I completely agree with Steve - every point is right on. I don't know one person who stopped racing because of the cost of the tires - or who said they would come back if the tires were cheaper. Not that there aren't any - I just haven't heard anyone say it.

I suggest working on the things Steve mentioned first - which has shown to be successful at getting more racers out and new drivers to the class - then considering running cheaper/slower tires. That would make a strong class.

[problemchild]

These are two totally separate topics and can be developed independently.

You cannot expect regular local racers to travel to a few select "specials" spread across the country. FV is for many regular folks who are not retired, or employed such that they can take 5 or 6 day weekends and travel thousands of miles. Pretending that these specials will fix the problems is not solving anything.

Those of us that have tracks within an hour or so of home know how cheap those events can be. If you decreased tire costs to $500/bi-annually, then more people could race more often locally, car counts would increase, etc.

[fvhopeful]

Greg is right on .

It s important that we keep Derm and Steve view points separate from each other .

The constant debate will just diminish the class as a whole.

Those with a higher budget could take in the Majors and USFV1200 events where tires,
monster manifolds and travel time are not a factor to the individual.

Those with a slightly lower budget could partake in a regional series such as the Challenge Cup Series, or the Millers Oils FTDA Series. I encourage that drivers
organize an association to create a steering committee . to establish rules for their
series . such as a spec tire , manifold restriction etc. . The ideal situation would be that the regional series could work together, much the same way Challenge Cup and Millers Oils Series allowing drivers to take in events from both series.

Cheers
Desmond

[gbmetcalf]

As soon as I am able, I will be running the F1200 tire package at selected challenge events. I am like Greg said, not able to take 5/6 days away from work. Truth be told I only get 1 weekend off a month and so far not one race has been on that weekend!

G.

[Matt Clark]

The perceived, and actual, lack of competitiveness of not being able to afford new tires all the time is absolutely enough to keep cars in garages. And sticker tire costs in a single year is a weekend or two in entry fees.

I myself have stayed away from bigger events because I knew I didn't have cash for new tires. This year, I decided to bite the bullet & run the Glen Majors. I would never have considered it without good tires. It's too much money just to go turn laps, knowing the leaders are going to disappear. Luckily, I was able to use very good take-offs from the big boys, so I saved buying a set of stickers. Those were a huge help over the used tires I ran early in the weekend.

And as far as FV-only run groups, we can do those with or without the tires. Obviously you either need bigger car counts or pay more (like the Pro FF/FC/FA series) to get those. And if you can save money on tires, more cars will show. especially at your local level. Again, see first paragraph.

Yes, FV has a pretty low operating cost. Can we make it lower? Absolutely. Tires are one of the low hanging fruit.

[Michael_Clark]

“We have a few guys that run the series and do not like the looks of the rims and tires,
but no one else is coming up with something different” – Ray Carmody

And now for something completely different . . .
.
.
I am not looking to start a discussion about how we are the only FV group in the world that runs on slicks, or about whether we need to grow the FV car count by either “getting cars out of the garage”, or by drawing in new participants. I have had a number of conversations with Ray Carmody about the Challenge Cup Series and it’s goals, and radial tires in particular. I am hugely impressed with what the Challenge group has been able provide on race weekends, getting FV only race groups and even two FV groups (a separate FV Challenge only group) during a race weekend.
.
I fully support the goal of reducing expenses, but quite frankly, while I have no particular issue with radial tires, I am not a fan of the Canadian spec wheel. I do not believe it has enough back spacing. The wheel, when mounted on the front of a FV, puts the wheel/tire well outside of the king pin center, causing it to rotate around, not pivot, and scrub when turning. I noticed a number of the cars trying the radials at Pocono appeared like they were experiencing a push, or understeer, when switching to the radials. I realize this can be adjusted for, but I wondered if there was a better, or at least a more neutral handling, alternative.

With no disrespect intended towards anyone, here is what I am putting out for discussion:

While I hate to suggest a third wheel/tire package in North America, I believe this proposal addresses the objection those of us have regarding the Canadian spec wheel. The Canadian spec Falken Azenis RT 615K (195/60R-14) tire is also available in a 15” diameter (205/50R-15). The Falken website lists both of these tires as having a 23.2 height. With that, this tire should have the same circumference, and therefore the same roll out inches. Admittedly, it is slightly wider and slightly heavier. For the wheel, I would propose the Empi GT-5 wheel. This is a 15” diameter wheel, 5.5” wide, with 4” of back spacing. It has much more back spacing than the current Canadian wheel, and should bring the wheel/tire back over the pivot center of the king pin. In addition, it is a very attractive wheel. These should look very much like the wheel / tire package being used successfully in Australia.
















The 15” diameter tire is approximately $19 ~ $20 more expensive than the 14” diameter tire currently used in Canada and as an option in the Challenge Series. It is advertised on the internet from a number of sites, I found them for $118 per tire, with no additional shipping. The Empi wheels are advertised for $75 plus shipping, but can be had for $89 with no additional shipping. Even with a $15 heat cycle added, a set of 4 wheel and tires can be purchased for a total of $888 delivered. I can provide these sites, and more detail about the wheels and tires if you would like to discuss this in more detail.

http://vwcatalog.empius.com/vwcatalog/2014/218.html
http://falkentire.com/tires/car-tire...is-rt615k-tire

Even though this is different than the Canadian package, I believe they could come down and feel like they were competing on equal ground. I have no interest in promoting either of these companies, only to offer an option to help put more cars on the track. I had offered to Ray that I would be willing to purchase a set to test, if there was enough group support for them.
.
So my question is this, if these were to be permitted in the Challenge Series, for those who do not care for the current radial offering, (whether you currently run in the Challenge Series or not) how do you feel about these? Would you be more inclined to try this package if they test well?

[rgu]

Michael
There will be a good opportunity at the Fun One to explore your idea. Shane Purvis a serious Australian FV1600 driver is driving Sam Farmiga’s Formula First. Shane will be making his first start with our R60A Hoosier slicks. Impressions should be fresh in his mind. We’ll be at Doug Seim’s trailer.
See you there.

[Steve Davis]

Michael,
Do you know if these wheels are STEEL or .. "OTHER" material? Any idea what they WEIGH? Ever actually seen one in person? I couldn't find any info on several sites I checked not even the EMPI page says what they're made of.

Might be interesting to try these with the slicks too... if they could handle the loads...

[Matt Clark]

According to the EMPI page, these weigh 15lbs. These would almost have to be made from aluminum at that weight & price. We weighed stock FV wheels, and they were just barely under 13lbs for nice ones.

http://vwcatalog.empius.com/vwcatalog/2014/218.html

Side note: I prefer the EMPI BRM-style wheel, but in all black & motion, you can't really tell. Maybe we should just allow any wheel within a certain size, weight & price range? Would allow people to choose what they like. More like the "bigger" formula classes. Younger people like choices.

[Amon]

Matt / Mike:

I had a long discussion with Ray several weeks ago about the rims / tires available and
after spectating at the Grattan vintage races, and watching the FV's run (+20), I thought
we should consider running the Goodyear vintage tires. There as long lasting as the tires
used by the Canadians, and we wouldn't have to go another rim which would lower the
costs for all involved. Just a thought on another option and I believe they're around the
same time deficit as the Kumho's etc. vs. the Hoosier slicks?


Mark

88' Citation 002'

[rcarmody]

Michael

Thank you for taking intrest in the wheels I think they look real nice, now we need to get some guys to committ to our series the numbers are starting to grow in the series it would be neat if we good see the difference in performance from what I have been running to the 15inch maybe we could do back to back testing since I already have the canadian rims and tires I would be up for that. There was a phone conference the other day challenge cup guys and topic came up so there is talk, I missed the call forgot all about it. (sorry Derm,Chris,Rob) but we are planning on another call next month we need to make some choices for next season. So guys that have been running our series please speak up anyone can be on the call this is your series and I know the guys who have come out and run have been having a good time lets keep it going.

[Matt Clark]

How much are those Goodyears each? I like the idea of a nicer looking wheel, along with apparently many others. The EMPI allowance covers a "prettier" wheel, and maintains the Falken tire of Canada.

[crypt0zink]

I had a long discussion with Ray several weeks ago about the rims / tires available and
after spectating at the Grattan vintage races, and watching the FV's run (+20), I thought
we should consider running the Goodyear vintage tires. There as long lasting as the tires
used by the Canadians, and we wouldn't have to go another rim which would lower the
costs for all involved. Just a thought on another option and I believe they're around the
same time deficit as the Kumho's etc. vs. the Hoosier slicks?

The VSCDA drivers at the Grattan event were driving on either vintage spec Hoosiers or vintage spec Dunlops. I'm one of the handful of vintage guys running the Hoosier on the #43 Zink, 75% of field is on Dunlops.

Drivers are saying finding new Dunlops is getting very difficult, the plant moved and production hasn't restarted, the supply line might dry up (rumor?).

I've been getting good finishes and wear from the vintage Hoosiers.



John

[Chris Elwell]

My car is going to be on the Canadian tires for next year's Challenge Cup races. The savings over the cost of new slicks (or even used slicks that are only useable for a few weekends) equates to several weekends worth of entry fees after a while. And there's no need to buy and carry around rain tires.

I don't see the need to look at other wheels or tire brands when the F1200 group has a proven package.

[Michael_Clark]

I don't see the need to look at other wheels or tire brands when the F1200 group has a proven package.

Chris,

As I stated, there is no disrespect intended, nor did I intend to offend anybody.
.
I put this out for discussion because a number of the guys have expressed that they weren't particularly fond of the Canadian wheel. Much of the concern is regarding the lack of back spacing and the steering. This was simply an option put out for discussion to generate some conversation and ascertain the general concensus.

I suggested the Falken tire because I felt the Canadian FV guys could come down and compete competitively on the same tire, albeit slightly different size.

Australia is already having issues with availability of the Dunlop vintage tire.

I believe the Hoosier vintage tire is more expensive than the Hoosier slick.

If the Goodyear vintage tire on a standard rim makes more sense, I have no issue with it.

Like I said, I have no dog in this race, other than wanting to run in a larger FV only field. If this gets more guys on track, then it's worth it. If this conversation generates a different solution and helps get us there, then we should discuss it openly.

Regards,
Mike

[Amon]

Chris, Mike & Matt:

If I get my Zink together for next year, I'm going to run the Goodyear vintage tires
so we can determine how long they last. I won't have to buy other rims and I've been
told that I can expect 2+ years on those tires? In response to Mike, the tires may be
more than the Hoosier slicks, but not by that much and should last many more heat cycles!
I like the rims shown in the photo, but if they're too expensive, it will be just another
cost that many of us are trying to avoid, plus the vintage Goodyear can be used in the
rain as other tires mentioned here.

Mark

88' Citation 002'

[crypt0zink]

Is there a Goodyear grooved vintage FV tire?

[vdrcr]

I don't usually add much to these conversations, maybe it's because I don't run much, partially due to money, but partially due to other activities. One of the things I really like about the formula classes in general are the slicks. I would miss it if they were not part of the class. Would any of the vintage rubber still be usable if they were shaved? Of course I'd like to see the boomerang things over my H-beam gone, standard steering racks, longer bodies and the removal of the "fan shroud" rule... Which pretty much means, I must be nuts!

Mike

[derminator]

Mike
Your contribution is exactly what is needed. So thank you for your input. Having run the tires the biggest issue is understeer, as you said it can be addressed with a little tweaking. But again any input is appreciated. So thank you. That said we will be forming an association with the goal of growing this formula and invite everyone to join. We will keep you all informed, and realize we all want the same thing, to race have fun and make Vee racing the place to be each weekend.
Cheers
Derm

[Michael_Clark]

Guys,

The idea was to keep the cost down as much as possible and appeal to as broad of a group as possible. The biggest complaint I've heard from a number of guys is they did not care for the steel wheel being used in Canada. I happened to agree, as I think it needs more back spacing.

The problem I ran into when researching this was finding inexpensive wheels that were readily available, had adequate back spacing, and fit the wide 5 VW pattern. The only wheels I could find were 15" in diameter.

The proposed Falken tire is exactly the same tire as used in Canada, only in a 15" diameter instead of their 14" diameter. By using the 15" diameter Falken tire, it offers an similar alternative to the Canadian package for those who have any objections with the their wheel. I am hoping this will keep the Canadians equally competitive, and encourages us to attend each other's series events. I don't believe the Empi wheel is any more expensive than the Canadian spec steel wheel. I found them for as little as $75 plus shipping, or $89 shipped. It is a good looking wheel (to help attract new, younger drivers), and has enough back spacing to bring the tire/wheel back over the king pin pivot. I expect the lower profile tire and additional back spacing on the wheel will improve handling.

The bottom line is this is consistent with the Challenge Series cost cutting goals, keeps the FV1200 guys competitive, perhaps gets a few cars out of the garage, and with a more attractive wheel, maybe even draws a few new drivers into the series.

I'm just looking to getting the conversation going.

Mike

[karmaboy]

Oh geez...I can't believe I'm going to comment on a tire discussion.

FWIW- The wheels we use are made for us by Diamond. I suspect you/we could get any backspacing you want. Not sure how it ended up the way it is now.

[derminator]

Micheal
Will you be at the fun one. if so lets talk more there
Derm

[Michael_Clark]

Derm,

Yes, I am planning to be there. Matt should have his engine back by then. I'll either be with him or at Carmody's.

Mike

[Johan W]

If we can combine nicer wheels with lower cost tyres we would surely add more drivers to the grid. I would race more weekends if they're available. As it is we can only race 6 weekends on the Canadian spec. I'm going to ship my SA Vee to race in the Libre class toward the end of next year.

[gbmetcalf]

I like Mike's idea.
Granted I haven't raced with you guys yet but I plan on racing with you guys in 2015.
IMHO going with the 205/50-15 makes sense to me. Correct me if I'm wrong but the F1200 guys like the Falken tire, and they have a custom wheel made for them? What Mike proposes is we go with a tire that is very close to the diameter and circumference as the tires FV already run. With a wheel that can be bought off the shelf at most any VW beetle website. For those that are a little more traditional, this steel wheel is a 15x5.5.

I think the tire package with a 5.5" wheel of a certain weight and other specs could work nicely. I would shy away from anything "custom" or even the Goodyear vintage tire. Remember what happened when Goodyear decided halfway through the racing season that the FV tire was not a high enough volume tire(money maker) to keep producing.

G.

[davidb]

Hope this isn't too much of a hijack, but has any one out there shown up at a SCCA regional with F1200 tire/wheel/manifold package?

If so, what happened?

[Matt Clark]

Yep. We've had several cars show for the FV Challenge races in F1200 trim. They ran with us without much difference. Yes, they were a little slower than the fast guys on slicks, but did mix with the mid-pack slick guys. On radials, everyone seems to run in closer packs as well, where Hoosier cars string out a little more.

[davidb]

Yep. We've had several cars show for the FV Challenge races in F1200 trim. They ran with us without much difference. Yes, they were a little slower than the fast guys on slicks, but did mix with the mid-pack slick guys. On radials, everyone seems to run in closer packs as well, where Hoosier cars string out a little more.

But they were allowed in?

I'm thinking of just showing up, fat (very) dumb and happy, even though the GCR requires stock wheels. As in: "Duh, the guy who sold it to me said it would be OK. What's this GCR thing?"

[Matt Clark]

Yep, and no one complained that I know of, most likely because they are a slower option. But it was pointed out by a steward that the wheels & tires do not comply. Mixing with "legal" FVs are one of the things the FVC is trying to address for next year when we can't get our own run group. Obviously if we get our magic number of 15 cars, we get our own group & wheels/tires are a non-issue. Maybe we work on a regional-only classification so as to not take points from the regular cars? We'll see what they come up with.

[Michael_Clark]

I like Mike's idea.
Granted I haven't raced with you guys yet but I plan on racing with you guys in 2015.
IMHO going with the 205/50-15 makes sense to me. Correct me if I'm wrong but the F1200 guys like the Falken tire, and they have a custom wheel made for them? What Mike proposes is we go with a tire that is very close to the diameter and circumference as the tires FV already run. With a wheel that can be bought off the shelf at most any VW beetle website. For those that are a little more traditional, this steel wheel is a 15x5.5.

I think the tire package with a 5.5" wheel of a certain weight and other specs could work nicely. I would shy away from anything "custom" or even the Goodyear vintage tire. Remember what happened when Goodyear decided halfway through the racing season that the FV tire was not a high enough volume tire(money maker) to keep producing.

G.

G,

Matt ran a set of Empi/Falkens at the Watkins Glen Last Chance event. He said they handled well. I'll let Dennis P. and Matt comment more regarding driving on the Falken radials. The Empi's received A LOT of positive comments. They look much better in person than in the photos. I was surprised, as the Canadian guys were also very much interested and asked a lot of questions. I was told that some of the F1200 drivers were not particularly happy with their existing wheel. I believe these address a number of the complaints. They seemed pretty much equal in performance to the spec F1200 wheel/tire package. After all, the 15" Falken is, for all intent and purpose, the same tire, with the same compound and tread. I am wondering whether the F1200 Series would consider these as well?

One of the biggest benefits of this wheel is the back spacing. For those who have reservations about adding extra weight out on the end of a pair of turkey legs, the 4" of back spacing keeps the much of the weight back over the base of the spindle, instead of hanging out so far as with the current F1200 spec Diamond wheels.











This proposal is still up for discussion for the 2015 Formula Vee Challenge Series. With much bigger issues at hand (manifolds & Can-Am Challenge scheduling), to me, these are almost a non-issue. I asked a lot of questions with a number of the drivers about their opinion. This proposal was not based on my own opinion alone, but founded on the comments and concerns expressed by others. We need to breathe a little life back into FV, and I believe this package may generate a little interest. They certainly look good, and the Falkens are fun to drive on as well. If allowed, I will be driving on these in 2015.

Also, out of curiosity, I sent an e-mail to JBugs to inquire into the weight and back spacing of the chrome stock-style steel wheel. However, even they are more expensive than the Empi's.

Mike

[Steve Davis]

Mike,
Out of curiosity, how does the WEIGHT of this tire/wheel combination compare to "regular" slotted VW wheels with Hoosier slicks on them? They DO look nice .

[BLS]

They DO look nice

They sure do. Probably straight rims as well...

Nice looking car Mike.

I have the slots with hoosier slicks at approximately 25 pounds each. I'm guessing the extra rubber has to add quite a bit.

[Michael_Clark]

Steve,

The package is heavier. The wheel is roughly the same weight as the F1200 wheel. Together, the wheel and tire are slightly heavier than the current F1200 wheel/tire because of the larger tire diameter. However, Matt commented that they did not feel that bad. Surprisingly, we did not have to make dramatic chassis adjustments. The shorter side wall and greater wheel back spacing may have helped the steering. However, the turns at Watkins Glen are not as tight as the turns at Pocono were we saw so much understeer on some of the cars with the F1200 wheel/tire package.

As you can see, the wheel itself is 2lbs. heavier than a good standard VW wheel. The tire is where most of the extra weight comes from. Ideally, I'd rather see a 195/50R-15 tire size.


wheel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . diameter . width . . back spacing . . weight
VW Type I standard wheel . . . . . 15” . . . . . 4” . . . . 3-3/4” . . . . . . 13
Canadian FV1200 spec wheel . . . 14” . . . . . 6” . . . . 3-1/4” . . . . . . 15.275
Empi GT-5 aluminum wheel. . . . .15” . . . . . 5-1/2” . 4” . . . . . . . . . 15.005

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . section . tread
tire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . size . . . . . . . . width . . width . . height . . . rpm* . . . weight

Hoosier C3000 . . . . . . . . . 22.5x5.5-15 . . .6.5” . . . 5.5” . . . 21.9” . . . N/A . . . . 11.5 ~ 12lbs
Falken Azenis RT-615K . . . 195/60R-14 . . . 7.9” . . . 6.6” . . . 23.2” . . . 900 . . . . 19lbs
Falken Azenis RT-615K . . . 205/50R-15 . . . 8.2” . . . 7.6” . . . 23.2” . . . 895 . . . . 20.93lbs

[problemchild]

The last thing that FV or F1200 needs is another option. The 14" wheel and Falken tire are a proven concept, with as many as a hundred sets floating around out there. Because it is a spec package, good or bad, EVERYBODY has the SAME package and someone's theory that the offset is inappropriate, is irrelevant.
This Northeastern group is willing to commit to the wheel/tire program. Go for it. There is absolutely no reason to muddy the clear picture by introducing another option, which in time will prove faster or slower. Those that will refuse to support the Series won't suddenly change their minds because of another similar option. IMO, adding options decreases, rather than increases, the likelihood of the program being successful.

Attachment 49199

[Matt Clark]

Buuuuut..... they're not really spec wheels. There are 3 variations of the Diamond wheel used in Canada right now, and on at least 2 of them, there are significant differences. Offset is not irrelevant because it affects handling & loading. Along with looks, that's why this was looked into further. I didn't get the impression all is hunky-dory in Canada-land either.

[problemchild]

The FAST wheels and various Diamond wheels are the same offset and weight. Regardless of the batch or supplier, they are to the same basic specs. Diamond has been a supplier of quality wheels for decades and have outlived other wheel builders and offshore product, that is "comercially available" until it suddenly stops.

Canadian F1200 racers have no idea what US racers have to go through to buy and use FV wheels and tires, even before factoring in cost. Yes, they find it inconvenient that they cannot just go to a Canadian Tire store and buy wheels and tires. Ordering from the US, or organizing group buys, is hardly a "broken" process, and has more to do with being in another country than the product itself.