Longacre - lousy response

[Rick Kirchner]

I've had really short life on master switches. Bought a really expensive unit from Flaming River, and had trouble from the start (just couldn't believe it was the new switch). They were pretty accommodative in providing detailed drawing data on a couple of their designs (which wouldn't fit the right-shoulder location on my Van Diemen).

I've tried all manner of Hella/bosch type switches, and they last just a couple of seasons.

Never tried Longacre though, and their designs looked promising, but when I asked for detailed data I got a list of dimensions from someone there named Debbie Heinle. Nothing to reference the dimensions to except the imagination. I asked for a drawing, was told they were "proprietary" (as if anyone with $h!t for brains couldn't reverse engineer external dimensions from a part). Sent her pics showing why I needed something better, and she blew off that and my next request, until I sent a third, where I got the same answer as before.

Told me that I could buy the part, try it, and send it back if it doesn't fit - as if I don't mind paying shipping both ways for something as simple as a drawing.

In this day and age where people frequently mock a design up in CAD before bending metal I'm surprised a supplier still has these kinds of concerns. Virtually every part you get off of Digi-Key has a detailed mechanical drawing!

If I can't solve this problem I'll have to run the dash power directly off the battery, or maybe relay switch it to be legal. The switch bounce causes dash problems and every now and then a hard bump will just shut the thing off (flip the lever).

[Matt King]

Gee, I was expecting a complaint about a part you actually bought!

[Numbskull XIV]

If I can't solve this problem I'll have to run the dash power directly off the battery, or maybe relay switch it to be legal.

On my 97 VD I'm running dash power directly off the battery. I used a longacre 2-pole master switch and a relay with a F500 and it worked very well in Autox (bouncing around a lot) but that's kind of a different ball game.

I not sure what the GCR says of master switch mounting but would a vibration mounted panel work and still be legal?


Hope this helps,

Jon Updegrove
RF97 Van Diemen FC

[Rick Kirchner]

I've use rubber mounts on the hella switches, but the distance from the bottom of the lever to the bodywork precluded the use of mounts for the Flaming river switch, and that's why I needed a decent drawing for the longacre one.

[Phil Creighton]

Rick
I think you are being somewhat unfair to Longacre - they buy in the switch from a supplier and you expect them to reverse engineer a drawing for you? All for a $5-10 profit!
I've dealt with them for over 20 years as a dealer and buyer and they are one of the best companies in this industry to deal with and get problems fixed when they occur (especially when people leave scale pads in the rain!!!).
Phil

[RobLav]

Put the switch on the dash and run a pull cable to the normal spot.

[ewcmr2]

Can you mount the master switch "upside down"? Make up off and horizontal on.

[Rick Kirchner]

Rick
I think you are being somewhat unfair to Longacre - they buy in the switch from a supplier and you expect them to reverse engineer a drawing for you? All for a $5-10 profit!
I've dealt with them for over 20 years as a dealer and buyer and they are one of the best companies in this industry to deal with and get problems fixed when they occur (especially when people leave scale pads in the rain!!!).
Phil

Phil, if they don't have the data, then I'd expect them to say so. Instead, they told me they won't release it, because it's proprietary. Perhaps you misunderstood my comment that any wanker could reverse engineer the interface control drawing from the physical part (so why would it be proprietary?), which means that this wanker could certainly do so, but why should I go to the trouble?

If you know who builds the switch, please enlighten, and I'll go looking there.

I got the same initial response from Flaming River, but I sent a few photos to illustrate the problem and they provided the data. In less than a minute that data showed me their "Big Switch" would never fit and saved me the effort of buying and returning. I sent the same data to Longacre, plus a follow-up and was ignored.

If I have any trigger point, I suppose it's being "blown off".

Rob, I've considered a cable pull, haven't figured out the dirty details.

EWCMR2, that's they way the previous switches were mounted.

[RobLav]

After running my car with the switch on the dash, I'll never do it the "other" way again (if I ever race again). If you're alone at the track, you never have to worry about forgetting to turn the switch on before getting yourself strapped in. If you have a crash or fire, then you can turn off all power yourself.

A simple pull cable (I used one with a red knob) mounted in the normal spot... run the cable along the right side of the driver, then turned inward toward the dash. Mount the switch to the dash so that the cable goes through the hole and that it will turn off the switch if the cable is pulled. If I remember correctly, with the switch "on", it faces downward. A pull from the cable then turns the switch counterclockwise so that it is parallel to the ground... and off.

[10rmotor]

Not sure which longacre switch you're referring to but are you switching the main positive or negative cable from the battery that would go to the starter motor? Thats not something that you need to do, or that the GCR calls out. I've been using breaker type switches from Aircraft Spruce for years, and I've put these on other cars with no trouble in years. They're available in different amp ratings, and are meant to be used as switches. Not cheap, around 30 bucks a piece, but, knock on wood, have never failed.

Type of car?

[Rick Kirchner]

GCR 9.3.33 seems pretty clear to me.......

[Daryl DeArman]

GCR 9.3.34 seems pretty clear to me.......

Fixed that for ya!

[10rmotor]

GCR 9.3.33 seems pretty clear to me.......

Actually, its not. The wording assumes that there is only one wire attached to each terminal of the battery. Does that mean that there MUST be only one attached to, in this case, the positive terminal? I don't think so, and I don't wire my cars that way either.

My master switches, one on the roll bar per the GCR, and the second on the dash, turn off power to all circuits such that when either or both of them are off no circuits can be operated. Does this mean that there are no hot wires that could be shorted to ground if the master switch is off? Yes. If that is what this rule is trying to prevent, then the master switch should be located right next to, if not right on, the battery. That isn't mandated.

I have one cable, number 8 I think, that goes through the remotely mounted starter solenoid, and continues to the starter motor. The second cable, no. 12 size, goes through both of the master switches mentioned above, and its this cable that powers the fuel pumps, ignition, and all the other crap on the car.

The alternator and regulator is connected directly to the battery, and this system is isolated from the rest of the electrical system.

By your interpretation, every single wire connected to the battery needs to go through a switch. I don't read 9.3.34 that way.

[BLS]

The master switch shall be installed directly in either battery cable

and shall cut all electrical circuits but not an on-board fire system.

Not much wiggle room...

[10rmotor]

The master switch IS installed in either battery cable, so whats the issue?

[BLS]

The following -

shall cut all electrical circuits

[Rick Kirchner]

What he said. I think the only "wiggle room" one might get is if you mounted a solenoid next to the battery (or near the master switch location) and switched it with a low current switch (perhaps fused) in the master switch location.

That way there's less exposed "live wire" and if the low current switch shorts, the fuse blows.

Not to the exact wording of the rules, but meets the intent and would actually be a bit safer than the usual.

I'm actually considering this method, if I can find a small relay that can handle momentary starting current and about 10 amps continuous. Mount it right above my right shoulder.

[10rmotor]

You know where I'm going with this: Define "circuit" for me. And tell me how shutting off the master switch doesn't cut power to all circuits.

[Pi_guy]

When you short the two terminals on the master because you suspect it is cutting off or dropping out......

[BLS]

You know where I'm going with this: Define "circuit" for me. And tell me how shutting off the master switch doesn't cut power to all circuits.

Actually, I have no idea. Any path that allows current to flow is a circuit. Any path not connected through the master switch will not be cut off by the master switch.

I responded to this:
"By your interpretation, every single wire connected to the battery needs to go through a switch. I don't read 9.3.34 that way. "

As I read your comment it seemed you were implying all circuits did not have to be cut off by the master. Perhaps I read you incorrectly.

[10rmotor]

Well, I stand by all my arguments that this is legal. I've been wiring cars like this for 20 years, and I'm not the only one doing so. This system has been queried by tech inspectors and passed every time.

I also know that I've never had one of those piece of crap hella/long acre/lucas master switches cause me to lose a session because the internal contacts got dirty and didn't make a connection.

So go ahead and continue routing all that starter current through a substandard switch right by your right shoulder.

[Rick Kirchner]

Is worth 1000 words, so how about posting one (schematic that is)?

[KodaBear]

I've wired my car the same as 10rmotor. After discovering that method I felt so stupid for not having done it before.

[BLS]

If you can explain what is ambiguous about "and shall cut all electrical circuits " I might agree, but it seems pretty clear to me. Any circuit (other than the fire system) not cut by the master is illegal per that statement.

Wiring the starter supply direct might not be any worse than a long lead to the master, but that is not what the rule states. It allows no exception other than the on board fire system.

I find the easiest way to wire the master is to run the ground through it. When it is off no circuit can be completed. It has to be capable of handling the starter current of course.

[KodaBear]

If you can explain what is ambiguous about "and shall cut all electrical circuits " I might agree, but it seems pretty clear to me. Any circuit (other than the fire system) not cut by the master is illegal per that statement.

Wiring the starter supply direct might not be any worse than a long lead to the master, but that is not what the rule states. It allows no exception other than the on board fire system.

I find the easiest way to wire the master is to run the ground through it. When it is off no circuit can be completed. It has to be capable of handling the starter current of course.

A circuit is a closed loop. so if you have a normally open starter relay that can only close (thus create a circuit) only by receiving power from a starter switch, the power from which can be cut from the master switch, you have cut power to all circuits when you flip the master switch off.

[BLS]

Jon, that might be correct. It would seem to meet the definition of cutting all circuits. Since all starters have a solenoid somewhere, as long as the solenoid power is cut off it would seem to be good.

Thanks,
Barry

[Wren]

It is common to use a relay as the master switch that is activated by a small, low current switch on the roll hoop. The small switch makes it as "easily accessible" as someone who has the master on the dash with a cable mounted to the roll hoop to actuate it.

[Rick Kirchner]

Okay Ted, but isn't that what I described in post #17 above? In other words, putting a starter solenoid as the "master"?

Another advantage of that setup is being able to put multiple "master" switches around the car.

http://www.flamingriver.com/index.ph...terydisconnect
http://www.ironcanyonmotorsports.com...ry-disconnect/
http://www.cartekmotorsport.com/tech-info.html

The cartel one is pretty nice but between the pricing and my experience with british electronic manufacturing quality (a rev limiter dead after 5 races) I'm not sure I'd want to spend $ on that one.

[10rmotor]

Rick, I think you're reading way more into the wording.

My setup only uses one solenoid, and that solenoid spins the starter motor when power is applied to it. That power comes through the master and dash switches.

I don't think starter solenoids are meant to stay on for 45 minutes at a time. Besides, all you're saving is a few feet of fairly large cable having 12V in it. I could put my starter solenoid right by the battery (which it actually is) and accomplish what you're reading into the regulation. And really, how many master switches are needed? I have essentially two, and thats more than adequate.

[Rick Kirchner]

I see what you're saying now Ted. Unfortunately for me to pull that off would require a pretty complete re-wire.

When I built the car I was amazed at the way the power was distributed in the stock harness with a bunch of little soldered t-connections. What I did instead was run the batttery power thru the master and then down to the lug on the solenoid. Then I fed several wires forward from there to the respective dash switches, so each one has it's own power (provides redundancy) and then back to the item controlled. it's a bit complex and slightly heavier but easy to troubleshoot and if you need to patch around a break, that's real easy.

So unless I kill it in the vicinity of the current master switch, or at the battery (under my knees) then a significant portion of the car will be hot.

You can get solenoids rated for continuous duty. Every RV has one switching the chassis 12V. Mine handles about 150A. It's probably 25% larger than a Ford starter solenoid. They do age like everything else - every now and then I have to tap it with a mallet to get it to engage.

[DaveW]

Old thread:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...wiring+diagram

[10rmotor]

No doubt it would be a lot of work Rick. For me, I've either done ground up builds, or a just about complete re-wire when I do a re-power from typically a carbureted motor like R1 to suzuki GSXR or kawi zx10R.

However, just to get rid of the crappy aforementioned lucas/hella/long acre/spa master switch is worth it to me.