Originally Posted by eospeed
Cool Erik, is that carb a straight bolt on. What kind of mods required to make it a race carb? Have you dynoed it?
Cool Erik, is that carb a straight bolt on. What kind of mods required to make it a race carb? Have you dynoed it?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Tnx Eric
So... after a bit of discussion with a (for now) un-named engine builder....A good Pinto makes about 148 hp on their dyno. A really good one makes 151 hp. The average Pinto coming into the shop is more like low 140's if not less. The Zetecs almost all make 148-152 hp (Reference Dave W's comment in post #29).
The piston/5.7 long rod kit ( http://store.esslingeracing.com/cart/catalog.aspx) will add life to the bottom end and maybe a couple of HP. The carburetor would add the balance needed. These are not expensive additions.
The real issue seems to be that the Pintos out there for the most part aren't even being rebuilt. I can tell you from personal experience that will not get you a motor capable of competing against other prepped Pintos, much less a Zetec. The complaint that the Zetecs are huge overdogs doesn't really play out when you look at the data. Are the Zetecs better? Yes, clearly, for the average competitor. Are they a lot better? Not if the Pinto is professionally built and tuned.
Racing costs money. If one is not willing to occasionally spend some on the motor, buy new tires once in a while, then maybe they shouldn't be in the game, and certainly not complaining about motor inequity.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Lots to ponder.... just for Pinto's sake... new bolt on carb & pistons/ long rods.... any consensus ?
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Without posting the actual dyno curves on here of a really good pinto vs a normal zetec you can't really infer everything from peak hp numbers. The curves released back in '09 had the zetec having a moderate advantage from 5200 to 6200 rpm. Above 6200 the pinto creeped back over and fell off less drastically. This is not the case now. Currently a top pinto is at severe disadvantage from 5200 to 6200 (~10hp at the most drastic) at 6200-7000 the pinto is either just touching the zetec curveor is 1-2hp below. Additionally the curve on a zetec has got extremely flat from 6000-7000 ie it's between 150-151. This is where the extreme disadvantage of the pinto has developed. I would post the curves but they were provided to me in confidence, and as such are not mine to post. Also a peak of 152 on a zetec would indictate a a hp creep of 5 hp compared to what was signed off on back in 2009 as being equal. '09 data, last post on page
And if you don't believe that our pinto is at it's max power, the head was just refreshed and we were able to run under the previous lap records at both our races this year.... Only to have zetecs go 1.5 sec faster.
Last edited by ccoffin; 06.26.14 at 2:56 PM. Reason: Added link to 09 data, changed a couple hundred rpm's to line up with 09 data better
For reference, post 29
For reference, post 29:
As Bob said above, the disparity between average and super-Pinto could be as great as 10 HP, most likely in the 5-7 HP range.
Dave Weitzenhof
That dyno sheet was from 2004, and you'd have to ask Steve what kind of motor that was.
I ran a Pinto up to the 2005 runoffs. My recollection is I had about 147 Hp peak, and a pretty good curve (on QS's dyno) and yes, it was a fresh motor, and yes, I carried a spare, always. That's how you competed, because everybody else did, too.
I was also part of the Zetec rules committee and we wrestled with parity on a lot of conference calls. You can't make them equal! You can make them more or less race-able. My point on the previous post was the motors are not 10 hp apart when comparing a Zetec to a good or very good Pinto.
Greg, in your group in the NW, how many of those Pintos would meet the criteria of "good" or "very good". I can tell you what the HP on Zac B's motor was when he bought the car, because it came from my team.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Apologize for my confusion as the post was from 2008 and that dyno was what was sold to us here as what those curves would look like more or less in 2009.
There are at least 3 really good pintos in the NW. That I have seen numbers on so that I know for sure. There could be more for all I know. There are also two good pintos sitting next to a really good pinto in our garage and I know that the two good ones (both with updated cams) are pretty close to the really good pinto when you put the really good carb on them. As was stated above, the carb is the choke point, not the engine since the new carb came about.
Agreed you can't make them equal, but you should make them raceable I'm also not saying they are 10hp apart, at the top end of the curve. However they are 10hp apart at the bottom of the functional range of rpm's, and are barely able to touch the giant flat spot of the zetec curve at their peak which is far more rounded. The area under the curve in the functional range is what matters, and the zetec has had a creep that has led to an extremely large area under the curve relative to the pinto.
Also this is Charlie, not Greg.
oops, sorry Charlie(absolutely couldn't resist, for those old enough to remember).....was looking at a different post when I wrote that.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
No worries... And you are not the first person who couldn't resist.
It is a bolt on. I am not sure about what was done you would need to ask Sandy. We have dynoed one but it was 15+ years ago that I recall.
Erk
I read a lot of >we that own pintos need to spend a bunch of money on pintos because the z exceeded what was intended..<........really? what? .......did I do something wrong? I say the z gets brought back or everyone can conclude that when the SCCA promises something, their word is about as good ____________(fill in the blank with whatever four or other numbered word comes to mind.) whatever happened to........we've got these rules so as to hold costs down?
Times actually change and new technology needs to be used for a class to stay relavent. Otherwise a class can wind up like FV with zero relevance and no new competitors. My apologies to all my Vee friends.
Now this is just my opinion and may not be worth anything. Personally, I would be very happy to spend say $500 to go another 1 or 2 seconds faster and thus be able to run closer to the front. I know that that is just me and my opinions are not for everyone else.
Here is a question to all the guys with Pinto motors that are sitting in garages: What good are your cars doing in garages? At least let the class change to Pintos with more power and then your car will be worth a lot more $$.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Upgraded pinto
Years ago - as CanAM was fading (as it turned out) I converted a Royale S2 to run in the 2L class. Sam Nelson built the motor with twin DCOE 45s and a mild(ish) cam. It made about 175HP. Did nothing else - no special pistons, rods or otherwise. I think it would have run for ever.
It worked on the Royale without too much modification since the full monocoque would allow the carbs to fit without fouling the tub. Not sure that would work in some of today's semi-monocoques, where the trunnion might interfere. Also it did not require much modification (if any) to the bodywork for air to get to the carbs.
Not an FC application, but relevant to the discussion on Pintos. Steve Knapp has told me that a lighter crank would make a huge difference to the longevity of the motor.
JeffW
Respectfully Bob, I would suggest that the real issue is the absence of a motivating environment in which the decision to rebuild pinto engines can be justified by owners.
Low participation numbers may be part of that and as some have suggested getting spanked by any zetec that shows up might also. The drop in marketplace value of non zetec cars may contribute as may a sense that the owner is just throwing good money after bad.
It is entirely possible that a decision to allow an inexpensive upgrade that increases power and longevity might be the catalyst or tipping point that restores confidence and enables a resurgence in popularity and commitment to pinto powered club racing. Or...it might just be a failed experiment that pisses a lot of people of.
At this point, what are the options. As you say, pintos are not being rebuilt and owners may just be just running out their engine's last days before putting the cars up on blocks. That possibility does not bode well for the future of pinto powered FC club racing.
This thread is now one week old. I started it because as a pinto owner I think it is still an economically valid powerplant for the guy that is racing 4 to 6 times a year. It really doesn't have the duty cycle to stay fresh for a whole series of 14 races a year. That's why back 10 years ago a lot of us carried spares.
I was thinking creating an option for a bit of a HP boost would be a good thing for those guys thinking about Majors or Runoffs. It wouldn't have to be mandatory, and if some guys want to create regional classes freezing the development at some date certain, OK.
Today, I have seen some of the type of progress I have learned that this forum can accomplish. Jay is corralling up a fund to do some testing. Erik is releasing some info.
three days ago I thought this would die out as a series of flames about history. Now I am a bit more optimistic.
How many dyno runs of different engines with different carbs do we need to do to get viable numbers and possible equalize? The underlying question is how much money do we need to come up with to do this? If we come up with a goal amount, then I think more people would be willing to contribute to this endeavor.
Additionally if a solution can be agreed upon, can a rule change actually get passed?
My goal was something in effect January 1, 2015. Would need to be to CRB by October.
A tight timeline.
upgrade plus
I should have mentioned that the Pinto I had done got to 175 Hp with a big valve head and porting. Not sure it would get here with just the regular unmodified head.
JeffW
Cams, carbs, crank, rods, short pistons, OK. But shaving the head for a few more HP will just jack up the running cost by more expensive fuel and dinged valves. Parts are nearly a one-time cost, but that CR increase is the "gift that keeps on giving".
Let's not shave the head. I like 100ll and straight valves
"An analog man living in a digital world"
What is the simplest and lowest cost solution that will get an 8-10 hp increase?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
To go back and read the original start to this thread I see that Mr. Frog was only considering the possibility of some sort of Pinto upgrade..........or asking us if we cared to bother with a Pinto upgrade.......well.......since there was nothing there to ask the community if we would rather have the original concept of Z power kept to what was started in the spirit of those rules I see little need to make further posts to this thread.......so..........well..........to quote a not all that famous quote > have at it.
What will be the baseline criteria?
...More horsepower, longer life, one time cost, ongoing cost
...what about any Zetec comparison requirement...peak power, usable or most effective power...raceable against but not better than
...did the prior cam upgrade in fact normalize pinto performance so that we don't have to worry about giving the monster pintos an advantage against the zetec while attempting to make average pintos raceable against zetecs
I'm in for a share of the cost as long as we start with specific objectives that have a reasonable chance of being viewed favourably by the CRB
Sid Smith
Probably a slightly bigger cam. The CRB explored this option years ago while contemplating bringing in the Zetec at its then-current horsepower, and after conversations with some engine builders I outlined what could be done to raise the output of the Pinto in this thread.
You can see the specs for the Isky cams I mention here.
PS - I don't see the Weber 38/38 DGV carb mentioned in that post, but IIRC it would be needed at least at the "Stage II" level, if not Stage I.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Doh! Moar coffee!
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
maybe just a cam
I agree with Rick and RD2 - don't go down the path where dinged valves could become an issue, and we can't use "cheaper" gas.
That's why I kept the standard pistons and a pretty mild cam in the conversion.
Maybe another upgraded cam would do the job here. I have noticed a bit of a difference with the Elgin cam - but its really in the stopwatch, not anything I sense on the track.
JeffW
The longevity of the Zetec is a big draw. Helping the Pintos to live longer will help all concerned. Increasing Pinto participation at a National Level will continue as the club & regional guys & gals progress.
Having a Pinto that can run two full seasons before being refreshed will help everyone get more class participation.
A bolt on carb, a bit more cam & better rods-pistons seems a path that everyone can follow. All at once or one step at a time.
Bolt on bigger carb. EZ
Slide in new cam. still ez
When it's time for new rods & pistons, why not better ?
If thid is done, many Pintos can come out to play & it makes for a great 'entry level' FC. And new racers is what we need.
Zetec is the invoice first choice for those with the budget.
The Pintos simply make getting started a bit easier on the wallet.
We all need feeder cars-racers.
Think the minor leagues in baseball.
"An analog man living in a digital world"
show up, ur still gonna loose, illegal means illegal, not sort of illegal, my wife is an attorney, meanwhile, I guess I will get a Zetec block and mate it to the Tatuus, for resale, can't imagine worrying about striped bolts and leaking oil past 66 years of age .....
Would tell the young guys, never marry an attorney, u can't get away with anything, they will call u on it, LOL
Last edited by Modo; 06.27.14 at 3:32 PM.
Yep, it's depressing, looking for a moral victory (another lap record without an asterisk next to it). Might list Roger Maris as drivers name on the side of the car. Hopefully something gets done for 2015.
Does anybody have any dyno numbers on any of these suggested upgrades, as the only variable changed? Trying to figure out which upgrade would lead to the target most effectively, prior to testing a particular upgrade so we don't wast time/money.
Difference between monster pinto and really good pinto with new cam is 3 hp or less at the biggest difference (again based on numbers people have shared with me, ymmv) and that difference is short lived. Area under the curve is nearly equal between the two and shapes of the curves are close to equal. On track comparison generally leads to the person who drives better winning (A shocking concept).
Target for zetec pinto raceable parity should be trying to equal the area under the curve from say 5200 to 7000 rpm give or take.
Do you have a copy of David Vizards book?
http://www.amazon.com/How-Hotrod-you...liter+ohc+ford
He does a lot of testing of different intakes / carbs / aircleaners with dyno results.
Obviously not the same as today but the relative change info is probably still relevant.
He likes the Holley 390 4bbl and the Weber side-drafts (which make the most power)....
I'll buy Roger and Micky (Mantle n Maris -I like this guy), I'm east coast, nice reference, hit the spot, carry on men!!!!! .....
used to keep box scores for the senators in my bedroom listening to the radio at Ft. Meade, yea, I'm crazy!!!!
Last edited by Modo; 06.29.14 at 1:02 AM.
Without going through my notes to verify, I am pretty sure there is enough piston to valve clearance to mill the head a little. No one has stated how much to mill yet, to lower the chamber volume by 3cc you need to remove about .018 from the head , that will raise the static compression by just about a half of a point making it just about 10.5 to 1 , that will be a benefit throughout the entire operating range and is still not high enough to cause a problem with the 100 octane av gas that most people use. As far as the cam goes, it's not that it needs a bigger cam, I think some tweaking of the current uprated cam would help, maybe a different exhaust lobe and tighten the lobe separation a couple degrees.
Mountain Lion Motorsports
Danbury,CT
Yup - you're right - I can't name a single pro driver that has come up through FV in the last 20 years - but I can say people turned up from all over the Country when there was a recent FV Anniversary weekend - and they had fun - which was the main objective - which was irrelevant to who knows - let's ask the real question - for other than having fun and spending a lot of time and money on GCR rules which other clubs pirate for free, is the SCCA all that relevant - I say yes - simply not as much as it used to be because the membership numbers and that growth rate could have been a much higher number if it had not been for the growth of many other vintage/marque/private organizations - fact: NASCAR owns quite a few tracks - the SCCA or its regions own very few - IRL has Indy and I guess nothing else.
Last edited by EYERACE; 06.29.14 at 12:56 PM.
Eye nailed it. It's not about new whizzy cars or fancy paddle shifters. The people who can afford them will and do anyway. The biggest problem is the perception of value for the money spent. The club was started by a group of guys to have fun, not be pros. Somewhere along the line it's been hijacked to think that the end game is a pro career which we all know is pretty much nonsense except for an anointed few. We see it touted in all of the club literature that if you become a member you'l be the next Andretti but there is no really mention of a social weekend shared with friends. The social aspect is not encouraged. Most of the regions don't even bother to get a race group together to hand out a silly $5 trophy which used to be the norm if they even bother with them at all. Even the few who ever actually make it racing generally will need a second career to make enough to retire on given what it cost to race even with sponsorship. What will bring people back into racing is the social aspect/fun/lifestyle which is what has been ignored for many years. The smaller niche groups that assist newbies and promote a bit of community and social events have had much more luck at attracting new drivers to formula cars. It generally takes someone in a local area who makes the phone calls and organizes events just like in any other club. The NER FV group comes to mind as a proactive group. Some of the other formula car only groups do the same. At the end of the day regardless of where we finish or what we drive, all any of us will have are the memories of the time spent with our friends....
Please don't do anything to the pinto engines. Leave the specs alone...again, please!
I am in it for the fun and because I am mentally disturbed.
Last edited by Jnovak; 06.30.14 at 11:18 AM.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Very well said. I watched "1" last night and you could see even those guys were in it for the fun.
Also, we're in for another $300 and we'll provide a pinto to run tests on so long as the work is done on the west coast.
Cool, another serious racer. I believe that this put the dyno donations at $900 I would guess that we are about 1/3 of the way towards making this a very viable project.
We also need a project manager to handle the logistics of the project. Any volunteers?
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
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