Pinto Upgrades

[Purple Frog]

Let's review the recent history of another pinto class: S2

Trick cars with full-time crews dominated the class (John and Randy and their beautiful Carbir).
Numbers fell. Then an engine change. Numbers down. Vintage numbers soared.

Now S2 has been merged into P2 where they don't stand a chance. So, the CRB will be allowing S2 guys basically free reign with their pinto as long as they show up for Majors. Think 185 HP. Maybe even future body work changes.

When the SCCA version of the Concorde Agreement goes into effect and the club tries to bring national classes down to 15, can't you see FM, FM, and FC all getting rolled together as the little winged class, and FB and FA getting rolled together as the big winged class. Just refer to P1 and P2 currently for a vision of where it is going.

One reason FC is strong out west this year is the Runoffs. The Left Coast pro series even deferred to let guys qualify for the Runoffs.

The reason a majority of active national cars are zetecs are because the owners that like to race many times a year do not have to refresh engines every year. Look back to 2005 Runoffs at M-O with the last large pinto field. Almost all the front ten had fresh engines.
You qualified as fast as you could in the spring using Sebring and Palm Beach, ran back to your Division, scored enough points, and then in the summer sent your pinto in for a refresh. The good ol' days.

[Phil Creighton]

I think that there are two arguments getting mixed up here depending on which point you want to make.
The simplest thing is to remap and/or restrict the Zetec for parity.

There is little to suggest that the long rod conversion wiill add to the longevity of the Pinto - nor will much else except a good air filter due to the 40 year old design. The newer pistons last way longer than the old stock ford and the rods took out catastrophic breakage for the most part. Longevity and competitive parity are not the same thing. Why make the Pinto's spend when the Zetecs are a mouse click away. More stuff to make the Pinto faster is going to cost more to install and run.

If FC wants more performance that's a whole separate discussion that should be discussed separately along with future engine strategy (this forum pretty much killed that discussion last time it was brought up because of the MZR and vested interests). Twin webers etc etc have nothing to do with Zetec parity that has been caused in large part by the F2000 pro series desire to have a bit more performance (from the organisers and competitors). But we are talking Club Racing here not either of the F2000 series. As for the FM FE FC all being in the same bracket - F1000 hasn't really escaped into a blazing success with more power.

[RSS]

When the SCCA version of the Concorde Agreement goes into effect and the club tries to bring national classes down to 15, can't you see FM, FM, and FC all getting rolled together as the little winged class, and FB and FA getting rolled together as the big winged class. Just refer to P1 and P2 currently for a vision of where it is going.

If true then we should still have many openwheel classes to choose from

Closed Wheel Classes
Miata
Not Miata - Soon to be folded into a B-Miata class even before it begins

Sports Racers
P1
P2

That leaves us 11 classes for Openwheel to reach the magic 15!

[Modo]

so redo the equalization process up to new Zetec of the hour spec, dyno then track and tell us what to buy, then prepare it for the GCR, until then, Zetec if the guy kept up, appears to be illegal for the runoffs unless they do some research and go back to original restrictor and the non-leaning map, aaaannnnnnnnd they haven't chopped the crate/junkyard engine ......... I like that Legally blueprinted, course would have to do that up to the best or add material or that crate only goes to the pro series ..............

course u r picking the most expensive carb system u can above, with no hole in the glasswork for it

people aren't showing up (IMO) cause they are older, money, been there done that, kids, kids college, run when u want to get out of town, lot of work for short time on track, although extremely satisfying when things go right, extremely!!! ........

I still can't believe they let the Lotus Super Seven in EP but I guess they made 500 or whatever that rule was, may have worked in DP .....

Supprised the Pro Zetecs don't have carbon brakes, can u imagine a new young guy coming in and saying, "you spend all that money and the race car doesn't have carbon brakes??"

[Stan Clayton]

Longevity and competitive parity are not the same thing. Why make the Pinto's spend when the Zetecs are a mouse click away. More stuff to make the Pinto faster is going to cost more to install and run.

True enough, but one of the sub-arguments here is that FC is too slow for the run group it is usually put in. The FEs and FMs have more hp so get around FCs on the straights, but lack rear diffusers so are slower in the corners. Out here in SFR we run FC in the F5-FF-FV group, but that creates its own issues, so IMO the solution to both the parity and the race group problems is to give BOTH the Z and the P cars more power.

The Z cars are easy...new map and bigger holes in the $20 restrictor plate. The easiest way for the P cars to get to [insert target hp here] appears to be dual sidedrafts. Yes, it means spending some money, but at least it's spending money to go faster, not merely edging closer to "parity".

As always, YMMV.

[Westroc]

Just to ask. Does anyone know (for sure) whether the dual webers- or whatever have to have more fuel pressure than the mechanical pump we now use. That supplies about 6psi. constant. Is the intake a purely shelf item or is massive rework necessary.

[Stan Clayton]

Just to ask. Does anyone know (for sure) whether the dual webers- or whatever have to have more fuel pressure than the mechanical pump we now use. That supplies about 6psi. constant. Is the intake a purely shelf item or is massive rework necessary.

My Weber DCOE45 sidedrafts need only about 2-3 psi, so with 6 you'd need to run a pressure regulator. Other carb brands might need more, but I don't have any experience with them.

[DaveW]

Just to ask. Does anyone know (for sure) whether the dual webers- or whatever have to have more fuel pressure than the mechanical pump we now use. That supplies about 6psi. constant. Is the intake a purely shelf item or is massive rework necessary.

I thought the 32/36 Weber Pinto FC's and Kent FF's use only wanted 3 psi. Here's a thread on the subject:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...+pump+pressure

[problemchild]

Twin weber side drafts just seem so 1964.

[Gary_T]

Twin weber side drafts just seem so 1964.

hmmm....

http://www.burtonpower.com/omex-thro...omekpinto.html

[gcoffin]

Sooooo just flashed back to 2005..... The last great pinto year......32 of 34 cars took the start at the RunOffs in FC. 2013 10 of 11 took the grid. Just enough to have a championship race. This is clearly working really really well.

Really well as an example of how economics works, raise the price of admission by 15 to 20 k, and you have fewer customers, but not so well from a racing point of view.

Seriously this is not 100% due to the ztec, but it did contribute......a lot

We need to fix it or get equalized with FM and FE in the all new and improved FCME class (add vowel as you see fit)

Majors participation is being artificially inflated by western conference numbers that will vanish next year.

[DaveW]

Sooooo just flashed back to 2005..... The last great pinto year......32 of 34 cars took the start at the RunOffs in FC. 2013 10 of 11 took the grid. Just enough to have a championship race. This is clearly working really really well...

IMO, a lot of that was due to 2005 being the last Runoffs at M-O for a while...

[gcoffin]

Dave

I agree there is rarely a direct cause and effect, and clearly no way to test history. But numbers are down by 70%, which I am guessing were more than overall numbers for the event. Pinto numbers were down 100%?

An interesting exercise would be to plot over all participation and the ztec pinto ratio as a function of changes in the ztec and pinto rule set.

[Dennis McCarthy]

There isn't anything your going to do to to revive the pinto which is why I decided to create an FS car out of my old RF95. Anyone who really wants to compete past entry level is going to buy a Zetec car. The whole idea behind the motor was to build something that would give an older car some snot and would eliminate having to rebuild a "national" quality pinto annually.

Obviously the two pro series have cannabilized the club but given the real costs involved of running a serious national club effort it's not a surprise, there is not a lot of difference.

I keep seeing the words cheap and affordable being bandied about throughout the discussion and want to laugh since we all know running an FC at anything above entry level is neither. probably the most value a pinto will have in the near future is being sold to be used in a vintage S2000. The single largest cost in being competitive even at the club level is and always will be tires which makes the whole motor deal pretty much moot. Like always those who really have a passion for and want to race will do so, I'm sure if Dave W added up all of the dollars over the years......

[Phil Creighton]

Stan
What I am trying to point out is that pinto- zetec parity is one thing. However as this forum tends to confuse issues with a bit of SCCA bashing stirred in we have morphed into bumping everybody up 20hp and moving them up the run group ladder - oh yes and its cheaper, right! Add into that the F2000 and USF2000 rivalry and we can really get off target.

Lets take the discussion of FC future to a different thread from one discussing parity of Pinto-Zetec. Engine, chassis,gearbox etc
Phil

[Dennis McCarthy]

Phil you say lets discuss the future of FC but lets not discuss the reasons people are not racing FC, I'm not quite sure how you do that? I think that they are germane to the conversation and should be part of the discussion. I think we can all agree that unless some angelic corporate sponsor is going to step up to the plate and subsidize new stuff costs aren't going to decrease in any meaningful way anytime soon. So you want to cut costs because you think it may bring out more cars where do you start? The regions say they can't lower entry fees. The tracks won't cut their rates. No one wants to hears spec tires, do they? Hotels may give you 10% for SCCA or Triple A but thats about it so where do you start if it's actually a cost issue?.

Quite a few years back after the sticker shock for rebuilding a 4 cylinder Pinto I approached QS and asked Sandy if he were interested in a motor project to lower long term engine costs by building a "long life" Pinto motor for club racers. I wanted to correct as many of the inherent issues with the stock motors such as the rod length, wrist pin placement, cam tower failures as possible once and for all.

Part of the idea of the project was for the average club racer to be able to reuse many of their exiting components such as the block, oil & water pumps, sump, manifold, carb, and headers. If finances prohibited a complete build, the motor could be done in stages over the period of a fews rebuilds if necessary, and a home builder could also build the "long life" engine.

About that time Doug Learned came out with a new aluminum head which solved most of the upper problems. I in turn had Sandy build a lower end that hopefully corrects the majority of the stock engine lower problems.


During the long life Pinto build process I bought another late model Pinto VD and after a season of running it realized if I were going to put a lot of hours on a motor it was simply a no brainer to convert to Zetec.

At that point the RF95 was not competitive anymore and since the only way to legally run the long life engine was in FS anyway I decided to up the HP bit on the long life Pinto and put it in the RF95. Sandy installed a different cam, A TWM manifold and 45 DCOE Webers.

As I stated above I doubt you'll ever get large club FC fields again short of a whole new package or the demise of the pro series altogether. Given all of the alphabet soup in our neighborhood regionals we have run with anyway over the last several years, I won't be staring at a field of exhaust pipes while out on the occasional fun weekend with my FS car. I've attached the super secret dyno sheet, it's really no secret as the NSA already has it anyway....

[Dennis McCarthy]

Dyno Sheet

[stonebridge20]

Dyno Sheet

That looks like fun.

[gcoffin]

True costs of running are not going to decrease, but any viable economic model actually needs to consider all points not just the ones that are convenient.

It is convenient to leave out the difference in capital cost. There are a lot more racers out there who can drop 12k - 18k as opposed to the number willing to dump 25k to 65k. There are a lot more racers out there who have the budget to run a few region races a year, than the mythical serious national effort.

[Phil Creighton]

Dennis
You are correct about the reasons . All I was trying to point out is that the parity issue is one facet amongst the existing Pinto cars not running. The other is to satisfy those that appear to want FC to become something more whether its engine power, sequential box, carbon tub, twin webers etc etc. This is not really the issue that Frog started discussing with sticking a bigger carb on there.

If there truly is a lower cost way of building a Pinto then get it submitted as an alternate configuration for discussion.

[Dennis McCarthy]

If there truly is a lower cost way of building a Pinto then get it submitted as an alternate configuration for discussion.

I'll leave that to someone with way more time on their hands. I built the motor and I'm going racing. It's much easier to simply run in FS....

[blackbmwk1200r]

So today we have monster pintos and average pintos. The fact that there are better than average pintos suggests that even after a rebuild some pintos are going to be less than average. We have rebuilds being done by the top pinto engine builders and set up to perfection on a dyno. We have rebuilds being done by competent engine shops but without the dyno nor the purpose specific experience and tuning. We have engines being rebuilt by shade tree mechanics. We have engines being rebuilt on a frequent basis and those that have long stretches between rebuilds.

So with the pintos short life and need for regular highly specialized and expensive work to get to and stay at their best and... with all the serious money moving into the pro series and blue printed Zetecs, how much engine parity do we really think we have now for today's club racers running Pintos?

[CJD]

You really think that is the current problem SCCA has with growth and "new blood" !
How many cars get parked everytime an engine/class change occurs, that costs the competitor a substantial sum of money or the ability to race competitively ?

[gcoffin]

Pinto to pinto parity improved with the new cam as the carb essentially became the choke point. In addition the shape of the pinto curves are all roughly the same.

The ztec on the other hand makes significantly more power at lower rpms and have a relatively flat curve at higher rpms. Prior to the ztec creep a good pinto had less bottom end, but more top end than a ztec. So ztecs ruled corner exit speeds, but a pinto could catch up. That has gone away as the entire pinto curve now fits conveniently under the current ztec power curve.

Oh joy

[blackbmwk1200r]

Pinto to pinto parity improved with the new cam as the carb essentially became the choke point. In addition the shape of the pinto curves are all roughly the same.

Thanks Greg for the clarification.

Does the "carb as the choke point" also mitigate the extent to which engine power is likely to fall off between trips to the engine builder also what about the "carb as the choke point" effect on any power advantage that can be expected by going with a top engine builder, dyno tuning, etc?

Someone told me once that a pinto makes the most power just before it's ready to self destruct. Don't know how much truth there is in that. My experience has been that the guys pushing the limits on time between rebuilds seem to be significantly down on power.

I appreciate any additional insight.

Sid Smith

[kea]

The reason a majority of active national cars are zetecs are because the owners that like to race many times a year do not have to refresh engines every year. Look back to 2005 Runoffs at M-O with the last large pinto field. Almost all the front ten had fresh engines.
You qualified as fast as you could in the spring using Sebring and Palm Beach, ran back to your Division, scored enough points, and then in the summer sent your pinto in for a refresh. The good ol' days.

That was an era when drivers raced more times a season and before the advent of the forged piston.
Also, engine build shops did nothing to discouraged that line of thinking.
"Freshening" a pinto every year, even when raced the number of times as done back then, is not really needed. We just don't see it around here.

[racerdad2]

Purely anecdotal. ... a 'loose' engine is a fast engine, just not long lived. Seemingly, every engine I've ever raced really picked up the pace before blowing up, oft times in spectacular fashion. If the carb limits the top end, your good engine builder will get you there quicker. IMHO.

[Purple Frog]

For the most part pintos do not 'blow-up" like a FA or FB engine. They just get "tired". Because at 6800 rpm the piston has a bunch of "wobble" the rings get rounded and the ring grooves wear. So on the first refresh you can change the rings. On the second refresh you need pistons. About the third refresh you need sleeves to get the cylinder walls back to spec.

Thus the reason almost all serious pinto owners own leak-down gauges.

While I think the 5.7 rod with a racing piston would buy us a longer duty cycle. As far as I know no one has assembled the configuration in an apples-to-apples comparison on a dyno to see if there are HP or torque gains to be had. In theory, the longer rod lowers the rod angle and thus should free the engine up a bit. But, those that have done it, for obvious reasons, aren't talking.

[Purple Frog]

Keith, Your "around here" cars might be more interested in running the great GLC series and not care about Majors, or the Runoffs. How many GLC guys even care about the Runoffs. My proposal is directed at those guys that have late model cars with pintos that might want to go to the Runoffs. That is the class of folks the GCR is written to control.

Regions are free to write a CFC rule and freeze engines at 2007 rules.

[Jnovak]

It sure would be nice if something can be done to make the pinto package run at the front. There are a ton of cars out there that are sitting and not racing. The simple solution, IMO, is to allow an inlet system (carburetor) that will get the engine another 8-10 hp at the lowest $$$ cost possible. Does anyone have dyno data on a better carb mounted on the current legal manifold or perhaps a slightly modified legal manifold to make it fit on the manifold?

Let's do something ASAP!

[Phil Creighton]

jay
I think we are back to where Frog started with the bigger carb
Phil

[Modo]

don't do the bank of carbs, bad idea, can get similar flow bolted on to existing manifold plus head mill, down from 49cc to something else, and cam (easy stuff) frankly dammit, don't ruin the class, bring the Zetecs back to what they promised or back to FA they go, looks like FC may not be at the runoffs this year, need ten, .......who's to blame for that, was a affordable, popular, fast class, once .......(I say affordable, these cars are hand built by skilled well payed craftsman coming in at $35-$45K without engine (I like that, wanted two british race technologists living in a nice pad over my garage on my estate to make and race what I want, just dream no estate, Levitt house, and no Brits) we get them after the so-called pros are thru with them for $15K-$35K depending) .......

Screw Helmut!!!, xcuse me, there's a ballgame on!!!! 1:55 PM 6/26 US Kapoot, good game DUestchermannnn

[racerdad2]

This may be verboten ! ? ! Would a simple Holley two barrel not work ? Or I they just to unreliable or undesirable ?

Jay's idea of modifying the current carb is sensible.

A longer rod and shorter skirt on the piston seems very reasonable, practical & economical. That said, I realize that for some racers, out spending the other guy is part of their joy of the sport.

The goal is more Pinto participation for the run offs & Majors. A bigger, bolt on carb with the long rod - pistons seems pretty ez & relatively economical.

[Stan Clayton]

jay
I think we are back to where Frog started with the bigger carb
Phil

A couple of years ago Jay Ivey put a 36/36 carb and (IIRC) a "Stage I" camshaft on an otherwise Club-legal Pinto and got about 160 hp. It was covered in a thread here, but in a bit of searching yesterday I could not find it.

[Jnovak]

We MUST DO the simplest solution that will get the Pinto back in the game and we must do it now. Time to stop talking and make it happen.

It seems to me that a replacement carb with a head mill will get the Pinto where it needs to be. Let the longer rod/piston wait to see what happens with step 1.

These changes can probably be done for significantly less than $1000. Once the combination of jetting is worked out it needs to be published as public info for the good of the class and the cost will go much lower.

Here is an idea. Get a group of Pinto owners together to pay for some dyno work (if it has not been done). Even though I do not have an FC I am really a fan of the class. Therefore I will make a commitment to contribute the sum of $300 towards a dyno fund. Another 10 or so guys and the $$$ will be available do do some decent work.

NO MORE TALK, MAKE IT HAPPEN!

[2BWise]

Keith, Your "around here" cars might be more interested in running the great GLC series and not care about Majors, or the Runoffs. How many GLC guys even care about the Runoffs. My proposal is directed at those guys that have late model cars with pintos that might want to go to the Runoffs. That is the class of folks the GCR is written to control.

I wouldn't be too hasty to say that us GLC racers don't care about the Runoffs. With the Runoffs coming back to Mid Ohio in 2 years there's reason to believe several might make a go at it. Purchasing a Pinto car is one way to reasonably control the entry costs, and therefore those of us that may chose a late model Pinto over laying out the coin for a Zetec. With that mindset it may not make sense to spend several thousand dollars to make the trip to Road America, or now Laguna, or next year Daytona. But, with the Runoffs moving around and coming to our backyard it could make for a fun experience for some of us.

[racerdad2]

One question on milling the head ? What octane will we have to run ?

As the old Roger Miller tune goes, "I'm a man of means by no means..." none the less, I'm in for $300.00

Jay, I'll send it to you. PayPal or card # ?

[eospeed]

http://www.piercemanifolds.com/product_p/18930.086.htm

Here is the D Gas carb, we only charge $500 to dyno a pinto.

[Dennis McCarthy]

We MUST DO the simplest solution that will get the Pinto back in the game and we must do it now. Time to stop talking and make it happen.

Jay weren't you one of the guys who proposed the best way to get old FC's back in the game was to chop them up sell off the Pinto, add a bike engine cause it would be cheap not too long ago? How's that going?
In my neck of the woods it simply took a few more running FC's that would have been great entry level cars for a novice out of the game altogether.

Many Zetec guys are already talking about a new engine since you can't call up Ford Racing and buy a crate Zetec motor any longer. No one wants to have to hunt through junkyards or rebuild stuff and the whole premise of the Zetec was a "new engine". Though I still love them and have several Pintos are simply dinosaurs and by the time any consensus would be reached I'll go out on a limb and say Zetecs are going to be on the way out in the next five years as well.


Full disclosure , we are planning on going this year and have no illusions about the deal, it's simply on the bucket list and if not now with the Runoffs being held there, then when for a couple of old men?

As far as appealing to any serious effort to go to the runoffs go buy a Zetec. If your not prepared to do that all the crying about costs isn't going to change anything. If your not ready to mortgage the farm then simply take your old Pinto and go have fun which is what it is all supposed to be about in the first place....

[Jnovak]

One question on milling the head ? What octane will we have to run ?

As the old Roger Miller tune goes, "I'm a man of means by no means..." none the less, I'm in for $300.00

Jay, I'll send it to you. PayPal or card # ?

Thanks Kirk, I do not want to manage the project. We need someone who is very invested in Pinto powered FC to manage the project. We need a volunteer. Come on someone out there in FC make it happen.