Pinto Upgrades

[RobLav]

The dumbest thing I ever did was sell all the Zetec FC stuff when I had the Citation FC done. When I took apart the Zetec (new crate engine), it was by far the nicest stock engine I've ever seen.

Another dumb thing I did was put a Pinto in the Citation after selling the Zetec stuff and removing the FB stuff. When I went out with the Pinto last year, the Zetec's walked away (more like ran away). The Pinto engine and LD200 were the same units I had run in the old RF93 and was able to keep up with the Zetec's back then (a few years ago). That's my experience with the progression of the Zetec power.

My beef with SCCA is lack of a class management plan. Everything is reactive (and years behind at that!) rather than pro-active. What will FC look like three to five years in the future? This desired end-state is what needs managed to. Pro-active class management will improve stability and potentially bring more cars out.

Even though I'm glad to hear of Frog's suggestions for Pinto HP improvement and longevity, it is still reactive management. I'm no longer an SCCA member, so I have no dog in this discussion.

[EYERACE]

When the car's finished I shall race the Pinto and grin from ear to ear............regardless of finishing position. Farley just rebuilt my Pinto so I am little concerned about making any immediate mods and should there be some soon-to-come-engine rule changes I'll only concern myself with that when the next rebuild time comes.....which could be a couple of years I guess

They put the Z in with the P and said they'd monitor the situation to have them equal.......so if they're to be held to their word.....since the Z exceeds the P, now the Z gets taken down a notch.........and tech people have the problem of keeping the field equal for us........and if they can't do it then we might as well put Congress or Obama in charge of our rules.

If new P rules come out, I wonder what sound the Z world makes as their complaint that they get an upgrade? After all that's the next obvious step.

I really am little concerned about a P upgrade because I mostly just want to get back out there. No one cares if this Club racer wins anything, even me.

I guess I'm biased because I'm a P - so it seems to me the obvious and easy answer is throttle back the Z - mostly because Z is now exceeding what was the original intent > that being that Z would equal P - not exceed.

[Bob Wheless]

What size Weber are we talking about for the side drafts . 40,,,45....? Thanks a ton,,,,bobo

[Dennis McCarthy]

45 DCOE with 36 mm stacks

[Stan Clayton]

45 DCOE with 36 mm stacks

I just happen to have a set of those...

[gcoffin]

Ok following a trans Pacific flight I think I see this clearly.

Since the Z was accepted into FC it has been given a number of "changes" in the form of larger restrictors, less weight and a variety of maps to equalize it with a high end pinto standard. It now appears that the Z has achieved a slight advantage across the board, even with the cam and fly wheel changes given to the Pinto, and in a few cases a breath taking advantage.

Hmmmmmm what to do?

Time to equalize......say back to 2010 specs

[SEComposites]

This thread does seem to highlight a peculiarity of SCCA racing. Why do we need to try to make two totally different engines equal? Why not simply have FC class P and FC class Z? Just a sub division within one class, and two lots of plastic trophies?

[DaveW]

...
Hmmmmmm what to do?

Time to equalize......say back to 2010 specs

That would be very difficult - it's hard to un-machine things. A smaller restrictor for club racing is another thing entirely, and could probably be done if EVERYBODY wanted it.

[Steve Demeter]

What Bill said.

I think the club racing side is being driven too much by the pro side and as Bill so Wisely (pun intended) they are two different sandboxes.

All of us were sold a bill that said Ztec in club racing would be sealed crate motors built by Sandy and kept no better than the average best Pintos. Obviously rule creep has set in as it has done so many times over.

If you want to spend big bucks go pro racing. Let the club racers do their own thing.

Mike, I think you should reevaluate the speed up the Pinto / recontain the Ztec to the original intent in light of the fact that the FSRAC is about club racing, not pro racing.

[gcoffin]

Dave

Agreed, but what got machined?

[Westroc]

First thanks to PFrog for bringing this up in the first place. W/O his effort none of us would even be talking about this. Although I find it a bit of a harder sell I could go along w/Weber- mainly for the extra fun the HP would allow. Even though I think we would burn down more tires and that's iffy for most. AS long as I can hone the engines I have. This stock bore thing is BS. Talk about reactionary! What I don't want to see is ooh now I need more rim width. No way!
In case you have nothing to do start a thread like this. It is time consuming. So thanks Mr. Frog.

[DaveW]

Dave

Agreed, but what got machined?

As stated in the 1st post in this thread - "legal blueprinting" is now the standard. Crate engines were never all equal, so as time went on, blueprinting became necessary to make all Zetecs more equal to stop customer X from complaining that X's engine was not as good as Y's.

Quote PF in post # 1:
"Over time, with many Zetecs involved and cycling through rebuilds, there has been a slow evolution due to experience within the engine builder community (legal blueprinting) so the Zetec power has slowly crept up about 6 to 7 HP."

[gcoffin]

Ok thanks

[blackbmwk1200r]

Why is 160 HP a better idea? Ten years ago FC was the premier class and this site was called F2000.com for a reason. This change sets the FCs out in front of the gaggle of FMs, FEs and such. This responds to the point Steve Lathrop made. Not FB speeds, but a bunch of fun, and within the scope of the current gearbox. A lot more attractive car.

I don't think anyone responded to this specific point. I think it has merit. Any others?

[Bob Wright]

F2000 has been around since the late 1970's. Mr. Senna, and a whole bunch of other drivers from the early 80's drove these cars. There's a reason for that.

The formula works. Note: its a formula, not a spec class. To again refer to and paraphrase Stan's comment above, technology moves ahead and the class has, and needs to continue to embrace it to stay vibrant. That's not what this thread is about. There's another thread addressing the future of FC which should be read by everyone participating in this one.

This thread is about making the Pinto attractive again for those who want to stick with them and is not all that relatively expensive. Note: Dennis McCarthy has one possible solution and Quicksilver has the data. No re-inventing the wheel necessary. The real issue may be making the motor too powerful. That's something the class cannot have for a variety of reasons.

My 2 cents is work to add longevity to the Pinto with inexpensive aftermarket internals and the horsepower will come. You don't need that much. The research and development have already been done and the parts are on the shelf. A good shade tree mechanic can install them..

[gcoffin]

Bob

The simplest way to make the pinto attractive is to recognize that the initial premise of equalization has been exceeded and dial the ztec back. The alternative is mess with the pinto again.

I am not sure how allowing hp creep in a motor, which is now unsupported by the manufacture, leading to further disenfranchising of fellow racers can be interpreted as a vibrant advancement of the class. We are talking about club racing.

The initial argument as I recall was engine longevity, not more hp and torque than EVERY pinto out there.

[Modo]

Yea, you are way off Bob, you guys should be back in FA with the newer mods and all your hard work of getting the Zetec equalized into FC is now Bogus, I say Bogus man, there is no modernization in increasing HP beyond what was figured, that is a pipe dream, you still would have a so called longevity engine with fuel injection as you first announced would give everyone a boner, xcuse my english, ........... you goosed or should I say the builders goosed the HP for a better pro series, just because it's there and easy, .......... also as DaveW said, Sandy and Steve should have brought any crate/junkyard motors that were down on HP, up to the original spec, at least for FC competition or back to FA u go, not try and walk the class for their convenience, again nothing modern about that, ....... IMO ........

Black below ...... yes and they goosed the map and cost the Pintos close to a grand for the cam and lightened flywheel after allowing them in the class .......... $400/$300something for me for cam from steve, did slotted flywheel myself proudly down to 10.50 as measured on a postal scale, already had SVO ........whew, almost had to put brazing on the ring gear, yuck outside weight .... after balancing, last cut was round-uniform and to the post office


more progressive response from me, can we hear what they are doing across the pond with the duretec upgrade, new class, tagged motor from a golden company, everyone buys spec parts and does it themselves?????? How do they do it since thay came up with FF (cortina) and super ford 2000 (cortina GT) or FC

[blackbmwk1200r]

Again reading old threads; wasn't there some issue with the Zetec running too lean with a smaller restrictor?

[Jnovak]

Again reading old threads; wasn't there some issue with the Zetec running too lean with a smaller restrictor?

A smaller restrictor with a new map is a zero technical problem.

[Purple Frog]

Sure you can further restrict the Zetec, and supposedly protect the class for the pinto guys.
But... you will kill the attractiveness of the class for new blood when compared to other alternatives.

Frankly, I'm scratching my head. I've been involved in racing for over 50 years, and now I'm reading about racers who don't want more power. Mark Donohue must be turning over in his grave.

And, let's not talk about extending engine life, because it will cause me to have to change my old engine.

OK, I get it, change SCCA to VCCA and be done with it. Based on another thread, SCCA is not made up of Cadillac guys because they all went out and bought Buicks.

[Bob Wheless]

Some what of a thread drift but,,,, what would the power difference be between the weber 40 and 45? Little , big, not so much . Assuming tuning to the max for both? [ I already have a set of 40's and manifold but would like to get enough power boost over the stock carb to make it worthwhile] Thanks for the input......bobo

[Purple Frog]

Bob,
Talk to Erik at QS, he has the data.

Obviously you wouldn't want to do it because you would have to spend money at the decal shop to have those FS decals made. [tongue-in-cheek]

[Stan Clayton]

Some what of a thread drift but,,,, what would the power difference be between the weber 40 and 45? Little , big, not so much . Assuming tuning to the max for both? [ I already have a set of 40's and manifold but would like to get enough power boost over the stock carb to make it worthwhile] Thanks for the input......bobo

About 10 hp in ultimate power, based on switching from a set of 45s to 48s on the Toyota 1.6L FA engine. That's pure top end power, too. In the midrange there is no practical difference on a 2 liter engine.

[Dennis McCarthy]

After having driven the car this past weekend the performance is marginally better than a Zetec with a club map but it's not an atlantic car. I ran a bit slower than an FB down the straights with 45's. I will post a dyno sheet later today when I get to my office...

[DaveW]

Again reading old threads; wasn't there some issue with the Zetec running too lean with a smaller restrictor?

Yes, but, IIRC, it was the map that was lean on the top end in an effort to limit top-end power. Also, IIRC, the lean mapping condition was corrected before I ever ran my Zetec in 2009. I don't think the smaller restrictor was related to the lean condition.

[kea]

But... you will kill the attractiveness of the class for new blood when compared to other alternatives.

You really think that is the current problem SCCA has with growth and "new blood" !
How many cars get parked everytime an engine/class change occurs, that costs the competitor a substantial sum of money or the ability to race competitively ?

[Dennis McCarthy]

Keith I can't speak to your neck of the woods but I've been pretty actively racing FC in New England for many years now and unless you go to F2000to race, FC cars are already parked here and have been for quite some time....

[blackbmwk1200r]

PF,

Have you thought about running a poll here on Apexspeed now that we've had some good input from both sides of the issue and first hand information from Dennis based upon his experience with the larger Weber?

$1,250 carb upgrade to run competitively now with club map Zetecs plus the ability to build longevity into your pinto engine at the next rebuild. Yea or nay.

Sid

[2BWise]

But... you will kill the attractiveness of the class for new blood when compared to other alternatives.

Frankly, I'm scratching my head. I've been involved in racing for over 50 years, and now I'm reading about racers who don't want more power. Mark Donohue must be turning over in his grave.

Quite the baiting post. I know this thread has started to turn away from the original premise, so I'll bite and follow along. I'm not sure how you consider rules stability killing attractiveness of the class. My opinion is that it adds attractiveness. There's lots of hidden costs in racing and explaining to a prospective buyer that every couple years you're going to have to spend $1k to stay in the game kills attractiveness. Or attractiveness for me to stick around and not have to chase constant upgrades.

Locally, we've had a handful of new blood to our numbers. It sure wasn't in Zetecs. It was guys and gals realizing they could afford a Pinto car and at least be on a level playing field with the majority of the competitors.

As to more hp; everyone wants more horsepower but 10hp isn't going to change the game. Comparing Donohue and his 1500hp is a bit misleading especially for a period of racing with almost unlimited rules.

OK, I get it, change SCCA to VCCA and be done with it. Based on another thread, SCCA is not made up of Cadillac guys because they all went out and bought Buicks.

What's wrong with vintage. It's a bunch of guys going out and racing for fun. Sounds good to me. The biggest difference is that a lot of those cars are worth more. Why is there this air that formula car racing has to be serious and we have to have a governing body plowing a path forward with technology. How about we keep the engine rules stable and let me spend the extra $1k on developing my chassis instead of keeping up to date with the part-o-the-year. Might actually be able to move the class forward naturally.

I keep getting the impression that there is no delineation between the F2000 series and club racing in this thread. The F2000 guys can do whatever they want. They have their own rules. It made sense that originally had a parallel rule set to the SCCA to draw competitors, but maybe the time has come to split them. It doesn't appear as though their are many competitors still doing both.

[racerdad2]

I vote Yea !Long live longevity !

[Steve Bamford]

Wow a suggestion to help equalize the cars for basically less then cost of a set of tires for the underdogs & many people lose their minds???

I really don't understand this.

[Bob Wright]

When you write a set of rules, smart and competitive people parce them and figure out how to maximize them (example, allow .010 over bore to account for wear and the engine builder will build all new motors to that spec and negate the original reason for including it). Over the last 10 years the Zetec has been "developed" because the rules allowed it as originally written, but so has the Pinto (head, flywheel, etc). BTW, this is not unique- Take a look at the Mazda 2.3 ltr FA motor in the Swift 016: it now produces more HP restricted than it did in the Pro Series unrestricted. Technology moves on when there's motivation.

You cannot eqalize a Pinto and a Zetec. You can approximate them, but they will perform differently on the track. In the beginning, the Zetec had a 1.295 restrictor and the Pinto killed it on any long straight. The restrictor was moved to 1.34 and all was good....for about a year, then the Zetec performance started to creep. Also, and important, once the Zetec became the motor of choice, the developement work on the Pinto effectively stopped.

So...the Club has a choice; slow down the Zetec by rules change (map, restrictor, whatever), or allow some parts in the Pinto to help boost it a bit and hopefully add some longevity. The club is going to have to address the Zetec parts issue anyway.

[cooleyjb]

Sure you can further restrict the Zetec, and supposedly protect the class for the pinto guys.
But... you will kill the attractiveness of the class for new blood when compared to other alternatives.

Frankly, I'm scratching my head. I've been involved in racing for over 50 years, and now I'm reading about racers who don't want more power. Mark Donohue must be turning over in his grave.

And, let's not talk about extending engine life, because it will cause me to have to change my old engine.

OK, I get it, change SCCA to VCCA and be done with it. Based on another thread, SCCA is not made up of Cadillac guys because they all went out and bought Buicks.

The attractiveness of the class is a stable rule set, dog box, and the chance of the F2000 series coming to your neighborhood. You want more power, people will go to FB or FA. Adding 5-10 hp to FC will not change that.

Regarding racers who want more power. The quote probably should read. "racers want more power, than the other guy they are racing against"

Earlier you said, what is different from 10 years ago for FC club racing. Here's my list

1. F2000 series. Has decimated the number of club racers. It is probably the number one reason FC has declined in the club ranks on the east coast. Almost everyone in the series that isn't a kid used to run a decent SCCA schedule. That in turn caused more people to want to come out. Good feedback loop is now gone.

2. FB. Those motorcycle cars look really cool, sound awesome, sequential gear box, etc. Way sexier than FC in every aspect. Every new guy to wings seems to go there, that has killed new blood.

3. Honda Fit motor. relatively cheap upgrade to a big chunk of cars made FF very attractive to people who may have been interested in FC. I see Fit cars for close to 30K, yet Zetecs are usually 40K+


Back to the original point. Losing 5hp will not scare a zetec driver away. Remaps are cheap, SIR are cheap.

Updating the pinto? It's still polishing a turd. Are you really going to get even double the longevity out of that motor by adding parts. I doubt it without spending lots of money.

Zetec guys are not in the class because they have 5 extra hp. It's because they have a motor that lasts significantly longer than the pinto. Taking away the power won't scare them away.

[problemchild]

Let the Pinto guys decide what they want to do for longevity, competition between themselves, etc ....... then restrict the Zetec accordingly.

A restrictor is 5% of the cost of a set of tires

[Steve Bamford]

Let the Pinto guys decide what they want to do for longevity, competition between themselves, etc ....... then restrict the Zetec accordingly.

A restrictor is 5% of the cost of a set of tires

Restrict the Zetec or allow the Pinto to increase HP, I really don't care which way you go as long as it makes the car more equal so they can both race against one another.

More cars & better competition equals more fun to me.

[Alex Zeller]

I was attracted to FC for one very important reason. VALUE FOR MONEY it was/is by far the best deal in town. For a modest amount of money you have a wings and slicks car with decent speed potential in a fairly advanced package. Key to that value for money equation is the robustness (is that a word?) of the pinto engine. To me engine reliability and longevity are the most important factors in the engine rules for a club racer.

I would be in favour of any changes that;

a) are inexpensive (off-the-shelf parts!!!!!),
b) improve engine life (longer rods?),
c) reduces running costs (allow overbore),
d) allows me to continue running 100 octane fuel, and
e) levels out the power advantage (average pinto = average Zetec)

Note: I run a F2000 car in Canada but our rules are currently tied to the SCCA rules and should (logically) remain so for some time. I would also like to head south and run some SCCA events (Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, etc.) in the next few years, so it's important to me that the rules are consistent across the board.

Cheers

[Purple Frog]

For a few minutes there I ran out of bait. But, I went to the ATM and got some cash and went to Crum's Mini Mall in downtown Panacea and bought some bait.

So here goes...

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you desire to increase duty cycle on the pinto with a different ring geometry, and allow over-bores, etc. Then the pinto's HP is going to climb just as I suggested in post #1.

Mr. Crum told me he should not run out of bait today.

[ccoffin]

Restrict the Zetec or allow the Pinto to increase HP, I really don't care which way you go as long as it makes the car more equal so they can both race against one another.

More cars & better competition equals more fun to me.

+1, thumbs up, like, agree. Doesn't matter how you go about it, just do it.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Sure you can further restrict the Zetec, and supposedly protect the class for the pinto guys.
But... you will kill the attractiveness of the class for new blood when compared to other alternatives.

First, I agree with the idea of progression, but killing the class?

I don't know what grids are like in SE but in the west the only classes with numbers are FC and FV. Yeah, if you want to podium, buy and FE, show up and you'll get 3rd.

FV and FC are the only ones with numbers out here...

This is a hobby (amateur thing) - supposed to be fun - with the exception of a few kids, no one is getting called up to F1.

FM and FE are specifically unattractive because of the sealed engines IMO. Basically design for the arrive and drive crowd....

The biggest cost related to any of these motors comes down to one thing. The guru tuners. I know there is a lot of people that would turn their own wrenches, but to maximize their competitiveness they have to pay a third party.

Is that the intent of the SCCA? Is that the spirit? We already know the Z is getting blueprinted when the rules specifically forbid it.

Alex is right. Off the shelf parts and allow real maintenance (overboring etc).

[2BWise]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you desire to increase duty cycle on the pinto with a different ring geometry, and allow over-bores, etc. Then the pinto's HP is going to climb just as I suggested in post #1.

Nothing wrong with a slight bump in hp. This above I'd have no problem with. It's useful in getting the Pinto more in line with the Zetec and increase the usefulness of the engine over it's life. My only hope would be that its a "one and done". Make the change then don't change it again. Cost is reasonable, can be accomplished within a normal rebuild schedule, and won't be a huge increase.

Like the original proposition in Post #1 there are some beneficial and easy updates, but when ideas about uncorking the Zetec and side draught carbs are thrown out there that's too much. Let's keep things reasonable and stable for the near future. I like the idea of the Pinto being in line with the Zetec as originally intended. But I don't like having to trade sets of tires for engine updates every other season.